16 Detroit Public Schools to Close by Fall

[MidTownMs]

Just Announced:

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/news/local/16-detroit-school-buildings-to-close-doors-by-fall-20120208-ms

[Maria]

While downsizing is a good thing that article is disturbing because it is doing nothing to solve ANY of the problems. It only serves to compound them.

Mumford High cost 50 million to build? Are you kidding me? What school costs 50M to build? Just one school that serves students for grades 9-12. No wonder Detroit is broke. So they are going to take 16 schools and assuming a MINIMUM of 200 students per school you are looking at taking 3,200 students who have problems learning and shoving them into a new school which will further overload the student to teacher ratio and not only that but troubled kids aren't going to care about school when they are dealing with adjusting to being around a new campus and new students. That is just a recipe for disaster. Not only that but how far are these newly displaced students going to have to travel to their new school? Who is going to pick up the tab for that cost?

This makes zero sense to address any of the problems it is claiming to fix.

[DetroitTeacher]

Many of my students [[who are misplaced Cooley kids) are on a bus for over an hour [[including bus stop wait times). most of the kids can't get transportation vouchers because they live closer to another school [[but DPS assigned them to our building anyway). Many of my kids have been to a new high school each year, because their old school closed. Most of those have NO pride in the building or their campus. I have 50 kids in each of my first three classes of the day and just about 33 in the other two. I am the ONLY English teacher at our small school [[we have 4 other schools in our building). Over half of my students receive some type of special ed services and another 1/4 NEED services but don't have the "label".

This is just sad...and the saddest of all is the closing of the Day School for the Deaf. They've made compelling arguments before to avoid closure and I sure hope that this new guy listens to them this time around. I can't sing enough praise about that school and what it offers to kids who would otherwise be lost in the sea of DPS.

While downsizing is a good thing that article is disturbing because it is doing nothing to solve ANY of the problems. It only serves to compound them.

Mumford High cost 50 million to build? Are you kidding me? What school costs 50M to build? Just one school that serves students for grades 9-12. No wonder Detroit is broke. So they are going to take 16 schools and assuming a MINIMUM of 200 students per school you are looking at taking 3,200 students who have problems learning and shoving them into a new school which will further overload the student to teacher ratio and not only that but troubled kids aren't going to care about school when they are dealing with adjusting to being around a new campus and new students. That is just a recipe for disaster. Not only that but how far are these newly displaced students going to have to travel to their new school? Who is going to pick up the tab for that cost?

This makes zero sense to address any of the problems it is claiming to fix.

[Wesley Mouch]

While downsizing is a good thing that article is disturbing because it is doing nothing to solve ANY of the problems. It only serves to compound them.

Mumford High cost 50 million to build? Are you kidding me? What school costs 50M to build? ...

Can we add some facts here. What's the average cost per student of new construction in metro Detroit?

[Zacha341]

Hmmm, what started as a death-by-a-thousand cuts is turning into the meat grinder ala DPS. And yes how do you pay a zillion over here for one high school yet close so many other schools. And not take into account neighborhood densities, and other locational factors. It is though people involved no nothing about Detroit, and don't care.... Oh yeah Covington, Like Bobb is not even from Michigan!

And who is pulling Roy Robert's strings. Like most things follow the 'money' and DPS will be about money for some right thru to the end!

[adamjab19]

Just thinking out loud here....

Between schools closing and the EMS/fire/police response times; there is an interesting thing happening in the City. Sure some of it is system failures but the density is so sparse that some people used to "city time" services [[being really close to and receiving fast services) have now been left to "rural time" services [[slower). When I go up north I wouldn't expect an ambulance to get to the cabin for 15-20 minutes. It's just not possible. If my child went to school up there it would be a 25 minute commute if I took her or probably an hour bus ride.... so what the people put up with in rural communities by choice are being manufactured by cuts and such in this city. It's unfortunate for some because it's what should be expected but when you have lost so much population density the city needs to provide services and staff more like a rural community. Kind of interesting although unfortunate.

[Maria]

Can we add some facts here. What's the average cost per student of new construction in metro Detroit?

If you take an overloaded school, say 500 students, and divide that 50M per student that is $100,000 per student. Do you feel that any child attending a school that packed is getting a $100,000 education? That is only for three years considering it caters to only high school students.

Harvard costs $33,000 per semester just for comparison purposes here. Do you feel your child is going to be getting 1 year worth of Harvard education over three years of highschool there?

I mean of course you need to factor in building and facility costs and then teacher pay which I can promise you teachers aren't getting paid well to deal with that many students and assuming there are less students the amount spent per student is even higher.

There is no way to justify a 50 million dollar high school.

Not a chance in hell.

The national debt is approx. 300 million dollars per state. Do you really think that a single high school should cost 1/6th of the states share of the national debt?

[laphoque]

Actually googling the cost of a new high school led me to a $230 million LA high school which is 10000 sq ft smaller than the new Mumford.

Looking at this random website which purports to measure the national average of new high school construction cost and assumes a 130K sq ft facility [[so multiply the totals by 1.85) it seems that the construction costs are not too far off average.

Also DPS picked one of the lowest bidders.

[firstandten]

Mumford High cost 50 million to build? What school costs 50M to build?

Just did a quick check and the new King building came in at $46.4 m and the new CT was around $80 m . And on a Bloomfield Hills schools website they were claiming that they could build a school at the same price as the new King building. Its could be the case that they are in the ballpark especially when you consider not only the building but the state of the art equipment in the building as well.

We Detroiters were not served well by our elected school boards who "kicked the can" down the road for decades concerning school closures because they didn't have the political courage to make the hard decision. This went on so long we not only had too many buildings but the building stock was old with most of our high schools being at a minimum of 30 years old most older.

Now Mr. Roberts not only has to get rid of the excess buildings at the same time he needs to update the stock of school buildings which is difficult. The problems of student, teacher and staff adjustment to the new campus is going to be a problem as you stated. However that's what happens when you keep putting off.. putting off. Eventually all the issues are going to hit you all at once.

Since Mr. Roberts said this is a done deal, as Detroiters you can either vote with your feet, or suck it up and adjust and make sure if we get another chance to vote for a school board with power we make good decisions.

[antongast]

It's unfortunate for some because it's what should be expected but when you have lost so much population density the city needs to provide services and staff more like a rural community. Kind of interesting although unfortunate.

Detroit is much less dense than it used to be, but 5,142 people per square mile is hardly a rural density. Atlanta, for instance, has about 4,020 residents per square mile, and nobody is calling Atlanta a rural community or suggesting that it shouldn't have city services.

[R8RBOB]

With all the schools that has been closed in Detroit, I have to ask why hasn't Emerson been closed and razed. Okay, it has been about seven years since I last been to Emerson but the building should have knocked down. Warped floors, leaking roof. Hell, I got locked in a classroom because the knob was broken and yet it is still open.

[corktownyuppie]

If you take an overloaded school, say 500 students, and divide that 50M per student that is $100,000 per student. Do you feel that any child attending a school that packed is getting a $100,000 education? That is only for three years considering it caters to only high school students.

Harvard costs $33,000 per semester just for comparison purposes here. Do you feel your child is going to be getting 1 year worth of Harvard education over three years of highschool there?

I mean of course you need to factor in building and facility costs and then teacher pay which I can promise you teachers aren't getting paid well to deal with that many students and assuming there are less students the amount spent per student is even higher.

There is no way to justify a 50 million dollar high school.

Not a chance in hell.

The national debt is approx. 300 million dollars per state. Do you really think that a single high school should cost 1/6th of the states share of the national debt?

Maria, I understand your intent but take some issue with the math.

There are two sets of costs to consider with expenses like these:

- The upfront capital expenses to build the school
- The costs to maintain the school

So, for example, which is better? The school right now that is old, decrepit, and costs $300,000.00 per year to maintain vs. the brand new school that will only cost $25,000.00 per year to maintain because it's newer but costs $50 Million to build?*

Of course, the answer lies in one question: "How long will you plan on owning the school?" If the new school will last 50 years with the low expenses but the old one has expenses that will only go up...well it's easy to see that paying some money up front to bring the operating expenses down can save money in the long run. [[*Numbers for hypothetical purposes only, not base on any scenario).

Your analysis of taking the construction cost and dividing it by the number of students is reasonable at one level but then doesn't pass the long-term test. That math would work if after the 3rd year the high school disappeared into thin air. The methodology you used would be the equivalent of telling someone it makes more sense to pay $10,000 in rent rather than pay $150,000 for a house because you only plan on living in the area for a year. I mean, yes, I agree that it's probably less risky to rent. But not because $10,000 < $150,000. That's not a meaningful comparison.

Also, I believe that the national debt is approx $300 BILLION per state, not $300 Million.

Now all this on the table, I'm not sure if this is or isn't a good deal for DPS. I simply haven't seen the analysis or the data. But since I'm kind of a math nerd about this stuff, I just wanted to point out that the analysis you presented might not lead us to the kinds of conclusions we need to accurately determine whether the benefits were worth the costs.

[wolverine]

If you take an overloaded school, say 500 students, and divide that 50M per student that is $100,000 per student. Do you feel that any child attending a school that packed is getting a $100,000 education? That is only for three years considering it caters to only high school students.Harvard costs $33,000 per semester just for comparison purposes here. Do you feel your child is going to be getting 1 year worth of Harvard education over three years of highschool there? I mean of course you need to factor in building and facility costs and then teacher pay which I can promise you teachers aren't getting paid well to deal with that many students and assuming there are less students the amount spent per student is even higher.There is no way to justify a 50 million dollar high school.Not a chance in hell.The national debt is approx. 300 million dollars per state. Do you really think that a single high school should cost 1/6th of the states share of the national debt?

It can vary depending on design and a fast schedule. For examples its ridiculous it takes 2 years to build a 3-story school in some communities when it can easily break ground and open in only 10 months. But there are other ways to drive down cost and not make it look like a prison. I came across this article recently that discusses the argument on why certain schools may cost more than others.http://www.wbez.org/story/shiny-char...est-side-92058

[DetroitTeacher]

Kids aren't getting shot, kidnapped, and robbed at bus stops in the rural communities. Sure, they may be mauled by a bear...but those chances are slim. We hear DAILY about some kid in Detroit having an issue while going to and from school [[I think I hear much more than what the news reports). A few weeks ago, one of my students [[a pretty big kid who looks more like a man than a school kid) was beaten and robbed of his phone, shoes [[which were NOT of the high profile variety) and what little money he had while waiting at the bus stop. He's a good kid, not flashy and not mouthy. Sort of the quiet type so his involvement in anything hinky is slim. It never made the news, although a police report was filed. Kids in Detroit have to ride the Ddot bus. Unless a kid is special ed, the cheese bus no longer picks them up. I've seen buses pass kids by and not even stop!!

It's one thing if you CHOOSE to live in a rural community where you know the kids will be waiting for quite some time for a bus. This is the CITY and it shouldn't take an hour for a kid to get to school...not when there were 3 neighborhood schools and now there are none. Heck, it doesn't take an hour to drive from one end of the city to the other. Why should kids wait an hour to get to school?

Just thinking out loud here....

Between schools closing and the EMS/fire/police response times; there is an interesting thing happening in the City. Sure some of it is system failures but the density is so sparse that some people used to "city time" services [[being really close to and receiving fast services) have now been left to "rural time" services [[slower). When I go up north I wouldn't expect an ambulance to get to the cabin for 15-20 minutes. It's just not possible. If my child went to school up there it would be a 25 minute commute if I took her or probably an hour bus ride.... so what the people put up with in rural communities by choice are being manufactured by cuts and such in this city. It's unfortunate for some because it's what should be expected but when you have lost so much population density the city needs to provide services and staff more like a rural community. Kind of interesting although unfortunate.

[Maria]

Actually googling the cost of a new high school led me to a $230 million LA high school which is 10000 sq ft smaller than the new Mumford.

Looking at this random website which purports to measure the national average of new high school construction cost and assumes a 130K sq ft facility [[so multiply the totals by 1.85) it seems that the construction costs are not too far off average.

Also DPS picked one of the lowest bidders.

You know what Detroit and California have in common besides obscenely overpriced schools? They are both terribly broke.

Just because it is a common occurance doesn't mean that it is justified or that it makes sense.

[Maria]

Maria, I understand your intent but take some issue with the math.

There are two sets of costs to consider with expenses like these:

- The upfront capital expenses to build the school
- The costs to maintain the school

So, for example, which is better? The school right now that is old, decrepit, and costs $300,000.00 per year to maintain vs. the brand new school that will only cost $25,000.00 per year to maintain because it's newer but costs $50 Million to build?*

Of course, the answer lies in one question: "How long will you plan on owning the school?" If the new school will last 50 years with the low expenses but the old one has expenses that will only go up...well it's easy to see that paying some money up front to bring the operating expenses down can save money in the long run. [[*Numbers for hypothetical purposes only, not base on any scenario).

Your analysis of taking the construction cost and dividing it by the number of students is reasonable at one level but then doesn't pass the long-term test. That math would work if after the 3rd year the high school disappeared into thin air. The methodology you used would be the equivalent of telling someone it makes more sense to pay $10,000 in rent rather than pay $150,000 for a house because you only plan on living in the area for a year. I mean, yes, I agree that it's probably less risky to rent. But not because $10,000 < $150,000. That's not a meaningful comparison.

Also, I believe that the national debt is approx $300 BILLION per state, not $300 Million.

Now all this on the table, I'm not sure if this is or isn't a good deal for DPS. I simply haven't seen the analysis or the data. But since I'm kind of a math nerd about this stuff, I just wanted to point out that the analysis you presented might not lead us to the kinds of conclusions we need to accurately determine whether the benefits were worth the costs.

Oops! You are right about the national debt. *Insert sheepish look here*.

Still 50M is an insane price for a school unless it is a private school of some type that isn't being paid for with taxpayer money.

While I agree that getting a great building that is easier to maintain and provides better services for the students is a good thing. However with the ratio of students served at that single high school compared with the number of schools closing, jobs being lost, and students who are likely to need greater attention being jammed into schools like sardines along with having to wait long periods of time in dangerous areas to get to these schools that cannot meet their needs or risk being removed from their homes is not a good solution.

[laphoque]

You know what Detroit and California have in common besides obscenely overpriced schools? They are both terribly broke.

Just because it is a common occurance doesn't mean that it is justified or that it makes sense.

You misunderstand me. LA's $230 million school is ridiculously priced. The new Mumford comes in just above the national average. Seems to me like DPS did this right.

[Ravine]

$300 billion, $300 million, whatever. Let's not allow a $299,700,000,000 discrepancy to get in the way of a good argument.
Carry on.

[firstandten]

According to the article Jemison Academy will be closing. The academy was one of the lowest performing in the district. I like when we name schools after successful young African-Americans but DPS did her an injustice naming a school after her and its really too bad because the students that attended the school named after her needed to know and internalize her story.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mae_Jemison

[firstandten]

Oops! You are right about the national debt. *Insert sheepish look here*.

Still 50M is an insane price for a school unless it is a private school of some type that isn't being paid for with taxpayer money.

From what some of the other posters have stated including myself, that price looks to be the going rate for an urban HS. In this case it looks like DPS is at least doing the right things in terms of building costs.

I think once you get beyond the sticker shock the other areas of your argument do have some merit.

[Neilr]

According to the article Jemison Academy will be closing. The academy was one of the lowest performing in the district. I like when we name schools after successful young African-Americans but DPS did her an injustice naming a school after her and its really too bad because the students that attended the school named after her needed to know and internalize her story.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mae_Jemison

The Mae C. Jemison Academy was opened a number of years ago as a school of choice on the west side of Detroit. It was not a neighborhood school and attracted, IIRC mostly girls, whose parents had the desire and where-with-all to transport their children to a small school that attracted students from similar backgrounds. It was a high achieving school.


After several years it moved to the old Leslie School [[aka Malcolm X Academy) in the Warrendale Neighborhood. Still, not a neighborhood school and definitely still retaining its population base and high academic standards.


~5 years ago, Mae C. Jemison, along with the rest of DPS, had lost some of its earlier demographic base. In one of the rounds of school closings, it was merged into the Herman School, a neighborhood school located in what had been Herman Gardens. Herman was/is an architecturally interesting but delapidated building in a high poverty neighborhood. My guess is that DPS was hoping the aura, name, and reputation of Jemison would lift the entire newly combined school. It did not. It was not a good fit. Not for the students, not for the parents, and not for the staffs.


So here we are today with the announcement of the closing of Mae C. Jemison.

[adamjab19]

Detroit is much less dense than it used to be, but 5,142 people per square mile is hardly a rural density. Atlanta, for instance, has about 4,020 residents per square mile, and nobody is calling Atlanta a rural community or suggesting that it shouldn't have city services.

True but what used to be Detroit's population density? If there used to be 2 million people and now there is only 750,000 and some it's the CHANGE in density that needs to be looked at not current density numbers. You used to have infrastructure for so much more and now it's gone and being reorganized. Has Atlanta had that type of change in their density? Maybe they BUILT a city that can service a density of 4,200 or so.

I'm not saying people deserve rural type services either. But if you had three neighborhood schools and then now you don't need them well then a crammed central location is the way to go for better or worse. With all of the deficit how do you justify keeping one school open for 100 kids and not close another school that houses 125 kids?

[firstandten]

Neilr- the backstory on the Jemison academy was enlightening. This brings to mind a question I have always had about DPS and moving programs. When DPS moves a successful program from one building to another what are the factors they consider ?

As a district you want to have wins but some of these choice programs are small and can't stay in the buildings that they are located for various reasons. However when you start combining programs in a larger building , or even grow that choice program it loses the appeal that it has to parents because the quality of the program declines.

Bates academy has moved several times going from east side to the north west side yet the school is still one of the gems of the district. So I wonder what the formula is to right sizing the district yet keeping the quality of the choice programs intact.

[jolla]

It's one thing if you CHOOSE to live in a rural community where you know the kids will be waiting for quite some time for a bus. This is the CITY and it shouldn't take an hour for a kid to get to school...not when there were 3 neighborhood schools and now there are none

Why do people choose to live in Detroit?

[iheartthed]

This is just getting silly now. It sounds like now they are just throwing shit at the wall and hoping something sticks.