Rethinking the Mall

**iheartthed** · June-10-09, 12:29 PM

Detroit get's a subtle shoutout on the latest installment of "Rethinking the Mall" on Alison Arieff's NY Times blog. Check it out: http://arieff.blogs.nytimes.com/2009...king-the-mall/

**Hypestyles** · June-10-09, 12:55 PM

very interesting.. designs like this would be very good for urban detroit.. needs attracting investors, etc.. there's no target, big box outlets, etc. in the city..

**scuola** · June-10-09, 01:36 PM

If big box stores could sell more American products I would see nothing inherently wrong in them. They provide convenient one stop shopping, tend to employ large numbers of people for similar wages as they would be employed by "mom and pop," and can draw in a large number of people into a local area which has been the goal of a marketplace for millenniums. I think a Wal-Mart or Target in an urban environment like downtown Detroit could really be a boost for the residential market downtown.

**professorscott** · June-10-09, 02:04 PM

Every Wal Mart or Target store I've ever seen has been a stand-alone building surrounded by acres of parking. If there's another type of such store, someone please post a pic. If not: where in downtown Detroit would we all like to see a stand-alone building surrounded by acres of parking?

**313WX** · June-10-09, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by professorscott

Every Wal Mart or Target store I've ever seen has been a stand-alone building surrounded by acres of parking. If there's another type of such store, someone please post a pic. If not: where in downtown Detroit would we all like to see a stand-alone building surrounded by acres of parking?

There's an urban multi-level Target in Minneapolis. It's inside the Nicolett mall, something that could potentially work with Washington Blvd. or Woodward Avenue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Target_...#Target_Stores

And I'm sure there are some urban/multi-level Target stores in Chicago & New York.

Bearinabox · June-10-09, 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by scuola

If big box stores could sell more American products I would see nothing inherently wrong in them. They provide convenient one stop shopping, tend to employ large numbers of people for similar wages as they would be employed by "mom and pop," and can draw in a large number of people into a local area which has been the goal of a marketplace for millenniums. I think a Wal-Mart or Target in an urban environment like downtown Detroit could really be a boost for the residential market downtown.

One thing that is inherently "wrong" with big-box stores is that there is no practical way to fit them into urban environments. Even an urban environment as disinvested as Detroit doesn't have tracts of vacant land on the scale required to build a Wal-Mart with the requisite number of parking spaces, and if such a tract were assembled it would inherently detract from the "urban-ness" of its surroundings. You wouldn't be able to walk or take transit to it, because it'd take you half an hour just to get across the parking lot, and it would require streets to be closed [[making it less practical to walk from one side of it to the other even if you aren't shopping there). Because of this, big-boxes very rarely locate in urban areas, and when they do, they are functionally and aesthetically very much out of place [[the Home Depot at 7 Mile and Meyers is a perfect example, and that's hardly the most urban part of Detroit). The suburban locations of big-box stores is not a coincidence, or a function of demographics; the big-box store is a model of development that could only have been conceived by and for suburbanites.

Thus, in a retail landscape composed entirely of big boxes, people who live in urban environments have to get in their cars and drive out to the sticks to shop, thereby negating some of the advantages of urban life [[walkability, proximity to amenities) that draw people to those areas in the first place, and making it harder for central-city neighborhoods to attract residents. Whether or not a downtown Wal-Mart would be good for downtown is a moot point, because there is no downtown Wal-Mart and there never will be. Wal-Marts don't belong in downtowns, and Wal-Mart knows this better than anyone.

**Red Devil** · June-10-09, 02:24 PM

Here in Long Beach, CA there is an urban Wal Mart as part of the City Place development. It has an adjacent parking deck. City Place is an outdoor mix of retail and residential situated as part of downtown LBC's urban grid. It's a great concept, but has been struggling with the recent economic turmoil.

http://www.longbeachcityplace.com/Site%20plan.html
http://www.longbeachcityplace.com/Eventsandphotos.html

**iheartthed** · June-10-09, 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by professorscott

Every Wal Mart or Target store I've ever seen has been a stand-alone building surrounded by acres of parking. If there's another type of such store, someone please post a pic. If not: where in downtown Detroit would we all like to see a stand-alone building surrounded by acres of parking?

Atlantic Terminal Target [[Brooklyn): http://www.atlanticterminalstores.co...tlantic_01.jpg

Flatbush Target [[Brooklyn): http://www.fadingad.com/blog/brookly...ush/target.jpg

Bronx Target: http://dresramblings.files.wordpress...onx-target.jpg

South Loop Target [[Chicago): http://www.appliedengservices.com/images/SouthLoop.jpg

Bearinabox · June-10-09, 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Atlantic Terminal Target [[Brooklyn): http://www.atlanticterminalstores.co...tlantic_01.jpg

Flatbush Target [[Brooklyn): http://www.fadingad.com/blog/brookly...ush/target.jpg

Bronx Target: http://dresramblings.files.wordpress...onx-target.jpg

South Loop Target [[Chicago): http://www.appliedengservices.com/images/SouthLoop.jpg

Maybe we should get straight what a "big-box" store is and isn't. My post was made under the assumption that "big-box" refers to the design of the physical store, not to who operates it. If this were a chains-vs.-independents thread, I would have posted something entirely different. The links you posted, to me, are not "big-boxes," they are urban retail establishments operated by a company that also operates a lot of big-boxes.

**GREENTROIT** · June-10-09, 02:36 PM

I think a Target or outlet of a major retailer would be great for downtown Detroit, if it was fit into the current surroundings. Like Bearinabox was saying, the conventional big-box design of huge store and seas of parking wouldn't fit in Detroit. But the examples posted by iheartthed were more of something that could fit in Detroit. I'd like to see something like this Best Buy in Chicago:

Attachment 1659

**iheartthed** · June-10-09, 02:42 PM

Originally Posted by Bearinabox

Maybe we should get straight what a "big-box" store is and isn't. My post was made under the assumption that "big-box" refers to the design of the physical store, not to who operates it. If this were a chains-vs.-independents thread, I would have posted something entirely different. The links you posted, to me, are not "big-boxes," they are urban retail establishments operated by a company that also operates a lot of big-boxes.

I suppose that is an important distinction. I would like to note that I've been into each of these Target locations [[with the exception of the South Loop location, which I've seen from outside), and in terms of square feet, they have just as much space as any Target I've seen in a strip mall. And they offer everything that you could get at the Target on Grand River in Farmington Hills. The key is in land use. These Targets are all built up instead of out. And in the case of the Bronx, the parking is located on the roof instead of surrounding building. Home Depot also has locations in Queens that are built in the same way.

**kraig** · June-10-09, 03:35 PM

Detroit needs to go after Establishments that don't exist within the Metropolitan area. Establishments that already exist within the Metro area feel that they won't see an increase in their market share since Detroiters travel to the suburbs to support their establishments. Hard Rock and Fishbones started off so well because there were no other establishments in the area. That's also what always worked so well for Greektown. Being exclusive is what works for Detroit establishments.

**wolverine** · June-10-09, 03:39 PM

Originally Posted by professorscott

Every Wal Mart or Target store I've ever seen has been a stand-alone building surrounded by acres of parking. If there's another type of such store, someone please post a pic. If not: where in downtown Detroit would we all like to see a stand-alone building surrounded by acres of parking?

A whole bunch of Targets, Whole Foods, Best Buys, Bed Bath and Beyonds exist throughout the United States with the parking located on the roof or beneath these structures. Chicago has several, but the parking costs money unless you validate for spending more than $1. That's easy considering they bundle these developments with smaller chain stores and restaurants.....ones that would typically be located on outlots in suburbs.

Land is so ridiculously cheap in Michigan there's a reason why it's easy to build acres of parking and no incentives to innovate.

Bearinabox · June-10-09, 03:44 PM

Originally Posted by kraig

Detroit needs to go after Establishments that don't exist within the Metropolitan area. Establishments that already exist within the Metro area feel that they won't see an increase in their market share since Detroiters travel to the suburbs to support their establishments. Hard Rock and Fishbones started off so well because there were no other establishments in the area. That's also what always worked so well for Greektown. Being exclusive is what works for Detroit establishments.

I would agree with that, but I think that by "Detroit needs to go after..." you mean "Detroit needs to help Detroiters start and nurture..."

**jjw** · June-10-09, 04:39 PM

This is across from the Inner Harbor in downtown Baltimore. The complex also includes a PF Chaigs and a Filenes Basement.

Lorax · June-10-09, 09:04 PM

They build big box stores integrated into streetscapes here in Miami, and I know they did it in Atlanta as well, since I was there recently.

However here in Miami, it has resulted in people zipping up the garage ramp into the covered, secure parking, taking an elevaton down into the store, and leaving the same way.

In no way has their presence had any measurable effect on the surrounding storefronts, which are largely vacant.

Even the mall Target is in, is dying, with closed stores dotting the perimeter.

**Novine** · June-10-09, 10:45 PM

The Target at Square Lake and Telegraph has the store on the second floor with most of the parking underneath on the ground level.

**ghettopalmetto** · June-11-09, 07:10 AM

Originally Posted by Bearinabox

One thing that is inherently "wrong" with big-box stores is that there is no practical way to fit them into urban environments.

The evidence is to the contrary. In Washington DC, the city helped a developer acquire and develop a site that contains a Target, Best Buy, Bed Bath & Beyond, Washington Sports Club, and smaller street-level retail including Radio Shack, Staples, a "nutrition" store, shoe store, mattress store, and several small restaurants with 1000 parking spots. The city paid for construction of the two-level underground parking garage. The amount of land consumed? One city block.

Granted, half the parking always goes unused, since the development is in a pedestrian-oriented neighborhood, and lies across the street from a subway station.

**kraig** · June-11-09, 07:32 AM

Originally Posted by Bearinabox

I would agree with that, but I think that by "Detroit needs to go after..." you mean "Detroit needs to help Detroiters start and nurture..."

Either one works for me, of course the latter is more preferred. But, we have to be careful that out of market companies are not hooked up with people like Paul Hubbard of Alpha restaurants. He's they guy that was supposed to open 30 Papa John's in the City of Detroit. He's shady as hell, Papa John's is probably still smarting over that one.

**ghettopalmetto** · June-11-09, 07:52 AM

Originally Posted by kraig

Detroit needs to go after Establishments that don't exist within the Metropolitan area. Establishments that already exist within the Metro area feel that they won't see an increase in their market share since Detroiters travel to the suburbs to support their establishments. Hard Rock and Fishbones started off so well because there were no other establishments in the area. That's also what always worked so well for Greektown. Being exclusive is what works for Detroit establishments.

I presume you refer to high-end stores. Who, pray tell, in one of the poorest big cities in the United States, is going to shop at such stores?

This also begs the question for whom you're building the city? The people who already live there, and need quality grocery and hardware stores, clothing stores, and basic functional amenities? Or wealthy suburbanites who are [[insultingly) expected to drive in, drop a butt-load of money on the ground, and leave?

DetroitDad · June-11-09, 08:00 AM

http://www.flickr.com/photos/penmachine/2971108982/

"The Target Store at Northgate in Seattle has an escalator for shopping carts."

**kraig** · June-11-09, 08:16 AM

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

I presume you refer to high-end stores. Who, pray tell, in one of the poorest big cities in the United States, is going to shop at such stores?

This also begs the question for whom you're building the city? The people who already live there, and need quality grocery and hardware stores, clothing stores, and basic functional amenities? Or wealthy suburbanites who are [[insultingly) expected to drive in, drop a butt-load of money on the ground, and leave?

"Who, is going to shop in such stores?"

Is that supposed to be a trick question?

The Detroit Residents that keep Fairlane, Northland, Eastland, Oakland and Macomb Mall in business, along with Star Gratiot and Star Southfield are going to be the ones shopping there. One of the biggest reasons why you don't have stores in the City of Detroit is because it's common knowledge that Detroiters are willing to drive out to the suburbs and shop.

Are you new to the area? Everyone that's spent any significant amount of time in Southeast Michigan knows that.

I would like to see the City build itself for the people that live here and the people that like to visit here and may want to live here. Look at it from this perspective, the City of Detroit probably has the most per capita residents, in the state, that need and have received the converter box coupons for the digital transition. But, the City of Detroit probably has the least amount of stores in the city limits, if any at all, where its residents can purchase converter boxes. That's an example of the type of situations I would like to see the city remedy.

And what's so insulting about suburbanites, wealthy or otherwise, driving into the city, spending money to enjoy themselves and then returning home? Are they required to move into the city just because they want to go to the casino, attend a sporting or cultural event, or just to walk along the river? This Detroit is only for Detroiters attitude is extremely counter productive.

**ghettopalmetto** · June-11-09, 08:22 AM

Originally Posted by kraig

"Who, is going to shop in such stores?"

Is that supposed to be a trick question?

The Detroit Residents that keep Fairlane, Northland, Eastland, Oakland and Macomb Mall in business, along with Star Gratiot and Star Southfield are going to be the ones shopping there. One of the biggest reasons why you don't have stores in the City of Detroit is because it's common knowledge that Detroiters are willing to drive out to the suburbs and shop.

Are you new to the area? Everyone that's spent any significant amount of time in Southeast Michigan knows that.

Let me make sure I understand you correctly.

You want to take a retail-oversaturated region...

...and build more of the same kinds of "regional" stores that already exist

...in a nearby location

...using the same existing customer base

...and expect it to succeed?

**kraig** · June-11-09, 08:31 AM

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

Let me make sure I understand you correctly.

You want to take a retail-oversaturated region...

...and build more of the same kinds of "regional" stores that already exist

...in a nearby location

...using the same existing customer base

...and expect it to succeed?

Detroit needs to go after Establishments that don't exist within the Metropolitan area. Establishments that already exist within the Metro area feel that they won't see an increase in their market share since Detroiters travel to the suburbs to support their establishments. Hard Rock and Fishbones started off so well because there were no other establishments in the area. That's also what always worked so well for Greektown. Being exclusive is what works for Detroit establishments.

That was my original post. You do understand that don't means do not? As in Hard Rock Cafe did not have any other restaurants in the Metro area when it first opened and turned the highest profit of any Hard Rock Cafe with its Detroit location.

**ghettopalmetto** · June-11-09, 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by kraig

Detroit needs to go after Establishments that don't exist within the Metropolitan area. Establishments that already exist within the Metro area feel that they won't see an increase in their market share since Detroiters travel to the suburbs to support their establishments. Hard Rock and Fishbones started off so well because there were no other establishments in the area. That's also what always worked so well for Greektown. Being exclusive is what works for Detroit establishments.

That was my original post. You do understand that don't means do not? As in Hard Rock Cafe did not have any other restaurants in the Metro area when it first opened and turned the highest profit of any Hard Rock Cafe with its Detroit location.

So what are you proposing? That the same customers who go to Fairlane and Southfield to shop are going to drive downtown to shop at high-end stores?

Have you seen the economic demographics of the City of Detroit? By and large, it ain't exactly what one would call "desirable". I think you need more good grocery stores in neighborhoods before you try "being exclusive".

Hard Rock Cafe did well at first because of its novelty, not to mention its proximity to office workers and sports fans. People certainly didn't go there for the food.

If you think novelty is a sustainable way to redevelop the local economy, knock yourself out. I just don't see how people without jobs are going to spend oodles of money shopping at "unique" stores at a time when retail spending is down all over the country.