When Will Enough Ever Be Enough? [[2011 Murder Rate)

**cmubryan** · January-02-12, 11:53 PM

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...RO01/201020330

Mazel Tov, 15% increase in murders for 2011 in Detroit. As if we weren't high enough.

I truly can't imagine ever living in a city neighborhood knowing that my house could be broken into any second and my wife or I murdered and it all happen in vane with no shock or surprise from the police or even the media. Everyone just pretty much chalking it up to another day in Detroit.

You know what a sign of a true comeback will be? When Detroit's murder rate is less than 20 per 100,000.

BTW, this is what the public outcry should be about for crying out loud! The threat of an EFM? Are you kidding me? What about our family, friends and ourselves at double the risk of being gunned down in Detroit as compared to the next unsafest big city!

**Modusvivendi** · January-03-12, 02:29 AM

According to Wikipedia, only 3 countries [[Honduras, Jamaica, and el Salvador) have higher murder rates than Detroit. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_..._homicide_rate

With stats like that, how are you ever going to convince people to stay in Detroit, let alone move there to repopulate it? Detroiters should be much more pissed off about that than the possibility of an EFM.

**DeFunk** · January-03-12, 03:58 AM

Reading some of those numbers really blew my mind away...

Detroit really is by far the deadliest city in the us and philly comes in second with about 28 less homocides per 100.000 residens.

No wonder this city has such a bad reputation. It will never matter how many positive things happen, how many neighborhoods they bring back, as long as these rates stay this high i can fully understand people leaving out of fear.

If the violence stayed inside the circle of the criminals i personally would have no great fear or problem living within the city. I think Detroit is one of the most interesting cities in the us with an uncomparable history to any other place. I would take the city like it is minus the crime, because without it i believe the city could more easily make a comeback of some sort.

But the article also states incidents in which people far from any criminal activity became random victims.
So far i never had big fears moving around in the city except for one incident where someone came up to me while i was entering my car and asked for a couple of cents... i gave him a dollar, he thanked me and walked away...
This kid could have been desperate enough to simply kill me and take all my stuff.

It might still be unlikley but the chances still seem higher than everywhere else.

My point i guess is, people will sacrifice a couple of things to live work and play in this town, maybe even try to change things. The last thing people would want to sacrifce is their safety and as long they dont feel safe moving around in the majority of the city they will continue to leave [[or never make the move to the city).

**Chicago48** · January-03-12, 07:14 AM

Originally Posted by cmubryan

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...RO01/201020330

Mazel Tov, 15% increase in murders for 2011 in Detroit. As if we weren't high enough.

I truly can't imagine ever living in a city neighborhood knowing that my house could be broken into any second and my wife or I murdered and it all happen in vane with no shock or surprise from the police or even the media. Everyone just pretty much chalking it up to another day in Detroit.

You know what a sign of a true comback will be? When Detroit's murder rate is less than 20 per 100,000.

BTW, this is what the public outcry should be about for crying out loud! The threat of an EFM? Are you kidding me? What about our family, friends and ourselves at double the risk of being gunned down in Detroit as compared to the next unsafest big city!

I live in Chicago [[ex-Detroiter) and have relatives on the east side -- good people, retired -- who are living in fear and cannot leave their houses without someone being in the house. They cannot take trips out of town. One of my relatives is one of three houses on the block. When I visit, I go in the daytime, not the nighttime.
You have CWW/gun laws that allow people to carry guns everywhere. Is there any wonder that people are shooting all the time? And don't tell me that guns prevent crime -- if it did, why are there more murders? Wouldn't it seem that those people who are killing would be stopped by those defending their houses with guns? Aint happening.
I'm convinced that this is all a plot by "the establishment" to put more guns in the hands of black people so that they can kill each other off. Like self-genocide.

**coracle** · January-03-12, 07:52 AM

Although this might be under the wrong thread my New Year's Prediction is that based on previous figures 300/400 people living in Detroit will be murdered in 2012 [[and 2013, and 2014.......)

**401don** · January-03-12, 08:46 AM

As long as people see no value in their own life they can't be expected to value others. Not much different than a suicide bomber. In the meantime, crime fighting will continue to fight the symptoms after the fact.

**Danny** · January-03-12, 08:55 AM

Watch for more BROTHERS KILLING BROTHERS in the ghettohoods of Detroit in 2012 on your local news stations.

**coracle** · January-03-12, 09:06 AM

"I sincerely doubt that most murders in Detroit are committed with guns legally registered to the killers so gun law discussions and legislation are pretty pointless."

I've often wondered, when a legal gun[[s) owner dies naturally what happens to the weapons they leave? Do they "disappear" to be owned by people that they aren't registered to? If they do; then although I'm generally against Regulations I would be all for one in this instance.

**Bham1982** · January-03-12, 09:12 AM

Gun control can play a major role in reducing homicides.

Yes, the criminals rarely have gun permits, but the vast majority of guns used in crimes were purchased legally [[usually in states with lax enforcement), and then illegally sold to criminals.

So the fact that most states don't monitor nor strongly regulate gun ownership is a big part of the problem.

**laphoque** · January-03-12, 09:31 AM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Gun control can play a major role in reducing homicides.

Yes, the criminals rarely have gun permits, but the vast majority of guns used in crimes were purchased legally [[usually in states with lax enforcement), and then illegally sold to criminals.

So the fact that most states don't monitor nor strongly regulate gun ownership is a big part of the problem.

This. You need only look across the river for an example of what an effective gun control regime can do.

**coracle** · January-03-12, 09:46 AM

It looks like our Democrat "leaders" would prefer to regulate to punish people who earn and save money rather that the important aspects of life like stopping them being murdered.

**Johnnny5** · January-03-12, 09:59 AM

Originally Posted by coracle

"I sincerely doubt that most murders in Detroit are committed with guns legally registered to the killers so gun law discussions and legislation are pretty pointless."

I've often wondered, when a legal gun[[s) owner dies naturally what happens to the weapons they leave? Do they "disappear" to be owned by people that they aren't registered to? If they do; then although I'm generally against Regulations I would be all for one in this instance.

In Michigan all pistols have to be registered, so in order to legally posses an inherited pistol you would need to register the gun with the police. Long guns can be inherited by anyone who is over 18 and is not legally barred from possessing one, there are no registration requirements or background checks when purchasing or inheriting a used long gun from a private owner.

**Danny** · January-03-12, 10:08 AM

How many Detroiters in the ghettoes have guns by percentage? about 30% or more.

How many Detroiters or outsiders being killed by guns? over 350 [[ only a handful of those crimes are reported in your local news stations or newspapers.

**Johnnny5** · January-03-12, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by laphoque

This. You need only look across the river for an example of what an effective gun control regime can do.

So it's the availability of guns and not the fact that Detroit is 85% African American with more than 50% of the young population living in poverty? [[Compare that to less than 5% black population in Windsor and an overall poverty rate of less than 10%).

A culture of violence permeates America's urban black community, and you only have to look to murder statistics outside of it's urban cores to see that gun ownership rates are not the cause of the extreme violence Detroit is facing. I would venture to say that people in Michigan's U.P are armed at a much higher rate than those in Detroit, yet they average only 4-5 murders per year in the entire U.P compared to Detroit's 400+ [[The UP's population is approximately 1/3 of Detroit's)

**Meddle** · January-03-12, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by Danny

How many Detroiters in the ghettoes have guns by percentage? about 30% or more.

Don't you mean 80% ?

**coracle** · January-03-12, 11:09 AM

Thank you for the info. re. inheritance of fire arms Johnny5. Very interesting. Do you know what happens if a legal heir to the deceased fails to register the weapons and loses knowledge and control over them?

**Johnnny5** · January-03-12, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by coracle

Thank you for the info. re. inheritance of fire arms Johnny5. Very interesting. Do you know what happens if a legal heir to the deceased fails to register the weapons and loses knowledge and control over them?

I'm not 100% on how the law would apply in that instance. If you're personally in that situation I would suggest going to a local police department and ask for them for assistance. ***Do not take the guns to the location, and only ask them the questions hypothetically. If they are unwilling to help you may want to contact an attorney who specializes in estate or firearms issues.

**Danny** · January-03-12, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by Meddle

Don't you mean 80% ?

If you mean 80% that means 550,000 out of 718,000 Detroiters have a gun in their possessions. And over 360 could pull the trigger and kill someone.

Someone once told me " I have a gun and I called it peace."

**coracle** · January-03-12, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

So it's okay to say racist things in this thread?

If the "racist things" you refer to are embodied in post #17 then I think you are playing the Race Card because you can't face facts and truth.

**coracle** · January-03-12, 11:36 AM

"Someone once told me " I have a gun and I called it peace."

I'm sure they meant "piece"

**iheartthed** · January-03-12, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by coracle

If the "racist things" you refer to are embodied in post #17 then I think you are playing the Race Card because you can't face facts and truth.

That's one of them. You call it race card, I call it racist.

**cmubryan** · January-03-12, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

That's one of them. You call it race card, I call it racist.

Yes, unfortunately gun violence plagues the inner-city African American group more than any other ethnic or minority group in the USA. However, why play the blame game? What is the solution?

I think it's simple. No nonsense attitude from police and goverment officals. It is what cleaned up NYC in the 1990s. Focus on the small crimes and the big crime level will go down. Obviously, I don't have the answer but if NYC can do it at their mammoth size, Detroit can do it.

The entitlement attitude of many Detroiters [[especially the younger Detroiters) has to stop. We all have to work hard to get the material posessions we want. There are no shortcuts in life. Hiding behind talk of church, G-d, "Jesus saving me" and making excuses that "I am going to be just fine because G-d loves me" needs to cease as well. When will we go back to the old saying "G-d helps those who helps themselves" come back?

**internet_pseudopod** · January-03-12, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by coracle

If the "racist things" you refer to are embodied in post #17 then I think you are playing the Race Card because you can't face facts and truth.

I think what iheartthed is referring to is the ham-handed shoehorning of race where it doesn't really belong. In fact the injection of race into the discussion negated the facts. The mention of poverty was a completely relevant reason for violence in the city. Race, not so much. Have doubts? Here is a simple test you can use:

Which has more to do with violence:

A)Being African American or B)Grinding poverty
A)Being African American or B)Joblessness
A)Being African American or B)The drug trade
A)Being African American or B)Large numbers of untreated, unsupervised mentally ill people
A)Being African American or B)Poor education

**401don** · January-03-12, 12:45 PM

It would be fascinating to know just how much the drug trade really contributes to urban violence in comparision to poverty, lack of education, etc. I'm guessing about two thirds of Detroit's murders would disappear overnight if the drug problem didn't exist. I do agree there is a cultural component within a small minority of African Americans in inner cities that leads to violence. It also exists in Latin American gangs, the Mafia, etc. Gang bangers are hardly a myth.
On the other hand, about 300,00 mostly African Americans moved to the inner suburbs over the last decade and murder rates, as expected, didn't change.

**Pickford-Bentler** · January-03-12, 12:48 PM

If demographics based on race was a prime factor comparison of the murder rate of Detroit vs Windsor, then how does one explain the very low murder rate of Southfield, Michigan?

Why does Southfield have the same long term murder rate as Warren, if race was a primary determining factor?

Why does Moscow, Russia have a long term murder rate about ten times that of Southfield, Michigan, if dark skin tone was a major factor in determining murder rates?

Why does Senegal have one of the lowest murder rates in the world?

In the case of Senegal both the assumption of black skin tone and poverty fall by the wayside.

My point is that the problem is very complex.