How long before SMART Bus cuts service again?

**jhartmich** · January-01-12, 08:05 AM

I am one of the thousands that have had to completely change my schedule and use of SMART buses. I understand that change is necessary, but walking away from Detroit customers [[other than M-F 6 to 9am, and 3 to 6pm) has really hurt ridership on SMART.

This whole thing of SMART bus dumping their load [[passengers) at the State Fairgrounds is A MESS! The number of people standing out there can be from a few to well over 40. The DDOT #53 bus is FULL as soon as it departs; forget the rest of the people along Woodward waiting to get on as the bus as it heads to Jefferson Ave.

The biggest decline seems to be in the evening. The 450/460 depart the Fairgrounds with practically no passengers. I spoke to a few driver/friends on the 460 route and they were telling me that they quite often go their entire run with no passengers. They agree that not servicing Detroit has really dropped their ridership numbers. I asked them how long they figure SMART can keep these buses on this schedule with only a few passengers, the drivers stated that they believe there will be more cuts after the cold weather...March or April.

Once again, it seems our mass transportation is being pushed further and further down the drain. I know for my schedule, bus service for both DOT and SMART has been cut to the point of being semi-useless. January 2012 will be the first time in 4 years I have not bought a monthly Regional Pass [[$70). It's not worth it.

**stasu1213** · January-01-12, 10:05 AM

I don't get it. These systems should improve, have more riders, and busses on the road and promote the hell out of riding Smart and DDOT. Many Michiganders and Detroiters had to give up there cars last year due to layoffs. Many other are having trouble paying the extremely high insurance rate for their cars. Gas prices are sky high. I don't want to hear crap about the bus system is losing money. The city and state had done anything in the past to make them more reliable, clean, and safe to ride. More people would catch the busses and the money could go back into the system instead of the general fund. SMART was one of the best bus systems in the country for decades until recently. Michigan has to cease being too car centric and short sighted if the state really want to move ahead. Michigan including Detroit are not going to get a mass amount of people to move into this state if they are forced to buy an automobile. Many of them are living in areas of the country where they could just hop on a light rail, train, troller or subway.

**DetroitPlanner** · January-01-12, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by stasu1213

I don't get it. These systems should improve, have more riders, and busses on the road and promote the hell out of riding Smart and DDOT. Many Michiganders and Detroiters had to give up there cars last year due to layoffs. Many other are having trouble paying the extremely high insurance rate for their cars. Gas prices are sky high. I don't want to hear crap about the bus system is losing money. The city and state had done anything in the past to make them more reliable, clean, and safe to ride. More people would catch the busses and the money could go back into the system instead of the general fund. SMART was one of the best bus systems in the country for decades until recently. Michigan has to cease being too car centric and short sighted if the state really want to move ahead. Michigan including Detroit are not going to get a mass amount of people to move into this state if they are forced to buy an automobile. Many of them are living in areas of the country where they could just hop on a light rail, train, troller or subway.

What you don't seem to understand, and it is obvious by this post, is how transit is funded.

The federal and state use the gas tax to fund transit. With a reduction in fuel being used due to several factors policies demanding better fuel efficiency, alt fuel vehicles, the cost of gas being high enough so folks who do drive conserve trips, and the reluctance of the legislatures to increase fuel taxes [[which is based on a gallon of gas sold instead of the sales tax). As you stated earlier its just impossible these days for many to have a car due to decreases in personal revenues and increases in operating costs. There are a lot fewer revenues to go around. Gov Snyder wants to change how gasoline is funded from being based on a fuel tax to something more akin to a sales tax. He estimates that by doing this he could bring in a billion more and the impact at the pump will hardly be noticed. He also wants to raise the vehicle registration fee because the gas side will not keep up with inflation because of the policies and realities that have lead to decreased fuel usage are not going away.

SMART and DDOT are also funded through local taxes. With SMART it is based on property tax revenues. When property is worth 30 to 50 percent less and no one is investing in new buildings because of the stalled economy, there are sharply less taxes brought in. DDOT gets a chunk of the Detroit general fund. This chunk has dropped from a high of $90 million to somewhere areound $40 million. The general fund is supported by property taxes and income taxes. when you have a quarter million people leave guess what happens to both taxes? When all of your new development is done using tax breaks/subsidies, guess what happens to the amount of taxes generated?

Every time riders are requested to pay more everyone goes crazy like its the end of the world so revenues from the farebox are less now [[accounting for inflation) than ever before.

How do you make substantial improvements in service under these conditions? Really if you have it all figured out, please post it. I'd be interesting in hearing which magic wand I can wave to make this all better?

SteveJ · January-01-12, 10:59 AM

Yup. Everyone wants a bus to pick them up in front of their house and they want to pay a quarter a day. There is no money and if the buses are empty then the demand isn't there either. Just buy a cheap car and get no fault insurance for $500 a year.

**Zacha341** · January-01-12, 11:06 AM

Where are you getting no fault insurance for $500 a year! PM me the place or share it with us all... LOL! I thought I was doing well at $1195 a year!

BTW I had no problem with paying when riding the buses and walking to where the stop was, but as the service devolved [[DDOT and SMART) it's impossible to rely on them to get anywhere in a timely fashion...

SteveJ · January-01-12, 11:16 AM

Probably everywhere but Detroit with a decent driving record. I had a leased vehicle a few years back and was paying $800 a year for full coverage on a msrp of 30k car. Maybe its time to move out if a beater costs $1200 a year plus paying 2.5 % income tax on top of that.

**Zacha341** · January-01-12, 11:36 AM

Yep, that's the rub: I live in DETROIT - have very good driving record, yet pay thru the nose and I go with a NON-big-name brand insurances [[Citizens) or I'd really be screwed - trying to toil with big block insurances. But my car is not a beater [[smile), it's nice, in near mint condition though 10+ years old...

...

I don't know how people are doing new and the truly luxury cars with car notes and sky high full coverage! One friend confided that when she was doing that and living in the city she was essentially 'working to drive' -- so much income went into car payments and insurance.

Not my thing. Nope.

Originally Posted by SteveJ

Probably everywhere but Detroit with a decent driving record. I had a leased vehicle a few years back and was paying $800 a year for full coverage on a msrp of 30k car. Maybe its time to move out if a beater costs $1200 a year plus paying 2.5 % income tax on top of that.

SteveJ · January-01-12, 12:39 PM

I had a friend that lived downtown and he had a newer Charger. His car rates were like $200 a month or higher. It was beyond ridiculous. Not to mention that he had to get some premium alarm system because he was getting attempted break ins on a bi-monthly basis. He eventually got fed up and moved out to an inner ring suburb. Sucks for him because he worked downtown too.

GUSHI · January-01-12, 02:54 PM

Get the car registered outta of the city, friends , relatives , parents

**detroitsgwenivere** · January-01-12, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

Every time riders are requested to pay more everyone goes crazy like its the end of the world so revenues from the farebox are less now [[accounting for inflation) than ever before.

Maybe it seems that way, but I do not agree. When fares went up to $2, the people on the buses seemed to understand that fares hadn't gone up in a long time, gas prices were higher, and it was still cheaper than owning a vehicle. The bus pass, which most of us regulars purchased monthly, hadn't gone up in long while either. I don't recall people having field meltdowns or anything[[except a few old folks on TV).

It's when they talk about increasing the fare after making all these cuts that people will flip out.

And demand is not down. It was just shifted around, so now demand is in Detroit with DDOT. But I bet ridership is dropping now since the system effin sucks.

**stasu1213** · January-01-12, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

What you don't seem to understand, and it is obvious by this post, is how transit is funded.

The federal and state use the gas tax to fund transit. With a reduction in fuel being used due to several factors policies demanding better fuel efficiency, alt fuel vehicles, the cost of gas being high enough so folks who do drive conserve trips, and the reluctance of the legislatures to increase fuel taxes [[which is based on a gallon of gas sold instead of the sales tax). As you stated earlier its just impossible these days for many to have a car due to decreases in personal revenues and increases in operating costs. There are a lot fewer revenues to go around. Gov Snyder wants to change how gasoline is funded from being based on a fuel tax to something more akin to a sales tax. He estimates that by doing this he could bring in a billion more and the impact at the pump will hardly be noticed. He also wants to raise the vehicle registration fee because the gas side will not keep up with inflation because of the policies and realities that have lead to decreased fuel usage are not going away.

SMART and DDOT are also funded through local taxes. With SMART it is based on property tax revenues. When property is worth 30 to 50 percent less and no one is investing in new buildings because of the stalled economy, there are sharply less taxes brought in. DDOT gets a chunk of the Detroit general fund. This chunk has dropped from a high of $90 million to somewhere areound $40 million. The general fund is supported by property taxes and income taxes. when you have a quarter million people leave guess what happens to both taxes? When all of your new development is done using tax breaks/subsidies, guess what happens to the amount of taxes generated?

Every time riders are requested to pay more everyone goes crazy like its the end of the world so revenues from the farebox are less now [[accounting for inflation) than ever before.

How do you make substantial improvements in service under these conditions? Really if you have it all figured out, please post it. I'd be interesting in hearing which magic wand I can wave to make this all better?

Are the transit systems in other parts of the country paid by gas and property taxes such as in Michigan? If not maybe we need to change the damn way we fund our transit system

**Zacha341** · January-01-12, 04:26 PM

Sadly flashy coveted 'high-profile' cars like that'll jack you fast re. insurance and Chrysler products are VERY heavily targeted!! Hence, his car janked often. You have to think that out BEFORE you purchase cars in Detroit! Factoring all that in 'with' the high note you pay already to finance the car....

My car is a rather 'dull' low-profile, yet luxury car that's usually only noted by those who know its type. I did/ do that deliberately. Still in all I have an alarm with a kill switch in addition to the factory alarm. Know where you are and deal accordingly. Or pay, and/ or walk after your car is stolen!

Originally Posted by SteveJ

I had a friend that lived downtown and he had a newer Charger. His car rates were like $200 a month or higher. It was beyond ridiculous. Not to mention that he had to get some premium alarm system because he was getting attempted break ins on a bi-monthly basis. He eventually got fed up and moved out to an inner ring suburb. Sucks for him because he worked downtown too.

**Zacha341** · January-01-12, 04:27 PM

I'm sure many have considered this. Just hope you don't get into an accident where bodiy injury is an aspect. You're sunk then. I'll just be one of the honest stiffs that pays and uses my REAL address...

Originally Posted by GUSHI

Get the car registered outta of the city, friends , relatives , parents

**Zacha341** · January-01-12, 04:37 PM

$2 fare was fine with me, sometimes much cheaper than driving if the gig was far out into the burbs. But due to the collapse of the system you cannot get any where on time. Maybe ok for a jaunt to the mall... but trying to get to an 8:00 AM sharp start time job - forget it.

Originally Posted by detroitsgwenivere

Maybe it seems that way, but I do not agree. When fares went up to $2, the people on the buses seemed to understand that fares hadn't gone up in a long time, gas prices were higher, and it was still cheaper than owning a vehicle. The bus pass, which most of us regulars purchased monthly, hadn't gone up in long while either. I don't recall people having field meltdowns or anything[[except a few old folks on TV).

It's when they talk about increasing the fare after making all these cuts that people will flip out.

And demand is not down. It was just shifted around, so now demand is in Detroit with DDOT. But I bet ridership is dropping now since the system effin sucks.

**DetroitPlanner** · January-01-12, 09:00 PM

Originally Posted by detroitsgwenivere

Maybe it seems that way, but I do not agree. When fares went up to $2, the people on the buses seemed to understand that fares hadn't gone up in a long time, gas prices were higher, and it was still cheaper than owning a vehicle. The bus pass, which most of us regulars purchased monthly, hadn't gone up in long while either. I don't recall people having field meltdowns or anything[[except a few old folks on TV).

http://archive.constantcontact.com/f...827908461.html

http://www.philstar.com/nation/artic...ticleid=725094

http://rvanews.com/news/public-bus-u...ute-cuts/28781

**DetroitPlanner** · January-01-12, 09:06 PM

Originally Posted by stasu1213

Are the transit systems in other parts of the country paid by gas and property taxes such as in Michigan? If not maybe we need to change the damn way we fund our transit system

Many also rely on several other revenue sources including bridge tolls, sales taxes, but the problem is not unique to Michigan, every transportation agency in the country is grappling with this issue right now. AATA for example has several mills of property tax to help its operation. SMART has a tiny fraction of that.

One thing that is being looked at is the use of gps transponders and charging people to use the roads on a per mile basis instead of on a per gallon basis. That way those who use the system the most pay the most. This will help address some of the policies pushing the fleet to high mileage or non-gasoline powered cars.

**Lowell** · January-01-12, 09:28 PM

I'm an occasional SMART bus rider. The reduced schedule has me in a car 100% of the time. Feel lucky to have a choice and a car. So many folks do not have the luxury.

**detroitsgwenivere** · January-02-12, 12:15 AM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

http://archive.constantcontact.com/f...827908461.html

http://www.philstar.com/nation/artic...ticleid=725094

http://rvanews.com/news/public-bus-u...ute-cuts/28781

Only the first link deals with the local area's bus issues, and that one is an organization who's site says, " No rate increase without better services," which is what I refered to.

Like I said, I get why you would think this. I rode an average of 6 buses a day on weekdays for 6 years. Believe me, if people had something to bitch about, it wasn't the fare, it was how much better other systems they rode in other places were. Or how long they had to wait with their kids in the cold without a shelter, or how aggrevating the after-school romper-room ruckus was, or how there are no lights at the stops, or how there were no bike racks on the DDOTS, or how.....

**jhartmich** · January-02-12, 08:27 AM

I disagree with Detroit Planner about raising fares. I think most people would pay more if the service was reliable and ran at a level in which you could have reliable service the metro area. With the cuts, it's just so patchy and inconsistent. You can always find an article about someone complaining about anything; the silent majority do understand that the funding is not there under the current way mass transportation is funded.

As others have said, its not about an extra 25 - 50 cents [[for most riders); it's about reliability. SMART is semi-reliable believe it or not. As reliable as SMART is, once it drops you off at the Fairgrounds, all your reliability just went out the window because you are now at DOT's mercy.

Car insurance in the city is hard to afford. When I got laid off from teaching, owning and operating a car in the city was something I could not afford.

**trotwood** · January-02-12, 09:49 AM

"Car insurance in the city is hard to afford. When I got laid off from teaching, owning and operating a car in the city was something I could not afford. "

Insurance rates here are ridiculous! I lived downtown Detroit for 15 years. The cost for no fault was almost as high as some friends&family were paying for full coverage in the suburbs. I eventually had to let the car go because I couldn't afford car repairs&insurance on top of the necesseties[[household expenses&food). I decided to move to one of the inner rings last year[[various reasons;not auto insurance related)&was sure I'd be facing much lower insurance rates when I purchased another vehicle. I made several calls seeking quotes for no fault. The rates seem to be just as high as what I'd paid in Detroit!
I don't know the answer to this but SE Mich needs a better mode of public transport for those of us who rely on buses. I'd gladly pay whatever the fare costs if the systems were functioning in a reliable manner.

**DetroitPlanner** · January-02-12, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by jhartmich

I disagree with Detroit Planner about raising fares. I think most people would pay more if the service was reliable and ran at a level in which you could have reliable service the metro area. With the cuts, it's just so patchy and inconsistent. You can always find an article about someone complaining about anything; the silent majority do understand that the funding is not there under the current way mass transportation is funded.

As others have said, its not about an extra 25 - 50 cents [[for most riders); it's about reliability. SMART is semi-reliable believe it or not. As reliable as SMART is, once it drops you off at the Fairgrounds, all your reliability just went out the window because you are now at DOT's mercy.

Car insurance in the city is hard to afford. When I got laid off from teaching, owning and operating a car in the city was something I could not afford.

Where did I say I supported raising fares again? I was discussing policies and revenue sources. Darned near everything I write on here gets twisted. Just because someone does not like a policy or revenue source does not mean that I have anything to do with it. I guess in this board's world, if facts do not equal a narrowly defined view of how the the world should be, the automatic response is to crucify the one who brought it up.

**Danny** · January-03-12, 09:57 AM

Wait until the SMART bus millage comes. Folks will be voting yes, but suffer the transportation crisis at the same time. Then some suburb planning to opt out SMART busses from its main roads if the don't meet their demands.

**Zacha341** · January-03-12, 08:19 PM

Yeah, Farmington Hills is talking about cutting out SMART. I recall being on the bus working in FH some years back. Had I not had some form of bus transpo when my car was down I would have probably lost my job...

Originally Posted by Danny

Wait until the SMART bus millage comes. Folks will be voting yes, but suffer the transportation crisis at the same time. Then some suburb planning to opt out SMART busses from its main roads if the don't meet their demands.

**detroitsgwenivere** · January-03-12, 09:13 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

Where did I say I supported raising fares again? I was discussing policies and revenue sources. Darned near everything I write on here gets twisted. Just because someone does not like a policy or revenue source does not mean that I have anything to do with it. I guess in this board's world, if facts do not equal a narrowly defined view of how the the world should be, the automatic response is to crucify the one who brought it up.

Calm down DP. JHM wasn't saying you want the fare to be raised, he was referring to your opinion about other people's reaction to the fare being raised. Your opinion is respected here.

I know there has been an uptick in jerk-offs and troll posts on this forum as of late. Please don't let the a-holes turn anyone else into one. People like me rely on the intellectual thoughts of others to help make informed opinions, thank you.

**rex** · January-03-12, 09:42 PM

Originally Posted by Zacha341

Yeah, Farmington Hills is talking about cutting out SMART. I recall being on the bus working in FH some years back. Had I not had some form of bus transpo when my car was down I would have probably lost my job...

I'll be screwed? Do you have a link with more info? What about Grand River, 12 mile?
12 & Farmington there is a WSU satellite campus and OCC. Im not sure what I will do if this happens. I rely on SMART to get to school.

Edit. Ok. Its Farmington trying to opt out. They want to partner up with FH, Livonia, and Novi I think. Hills voted SMART thru less than a year ago. Anyone know how long before it goes back on the table for FH?