Murder at Bagley and Grand River

**Zaddik** · December-22-11, 07:18 AM

[Please go to last posts on this thread. The initial reports were inaccurate and exaggerated.]

How will Detroit ever solve its problems? How will suburbanites feel safe coming into this city to spend their entertainment dollars, when on any given night, if you stray a block or two off the beaten path, you can be knifed or shot and left in the gutter? Add back in random violent crime as another factor which must be overcome to ever bring this city back.

**rjk** · December-22-11, 07:23 AM

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/news...ed-20111221-ms

**redvetred** · December-22-11, 07:26 AM

Used to work downtown, 20 years ago, and found a body at Grand River and Third. Some things never change.

**401don** · December-22-11, 08:12 AM

"Police are Stumped. Why was Groat walking 3 blocks from the casino."

He was walking on a main street toward downtown. Maybe he was heading to the Times Square People Mover or to a bar on Park St. Pretty sad when you can't make that walk anymore.

**One Shot** · December-22-11, 08:38 AM

And to think I walked from Lafayette back to St. Aubin and Atwater one night alone. Sad truth is until you wipe out the current population where killing, stealing, cheating is a way of life this $#it will continue to be learned by the youth as a way to survive. That's why I don't see much changing in Detroit for a while. And that's unfortunate.

**motownmark04** · December-22-11, 08:42 AM

Originally Posted by 401don

"Police are Stumped. Why was Groat walking 3 blocks from the casino."

He was walking on a main street toward downtown. Maybe he was heading to the Times Square People Mover or to a bar on Park St. Pretty sad when you can't make that walk anymore.

Are the police saying that we shouldn't be walking around the city?

**313WX** · December-22-11, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by 401don

"Police are Stumped. Why was Groat walking 3 blocks from the casino."

He was walking on a main street toward downtown. Maybe he was heading to the Times Square People Mover or to a bar on Park St. Pretty sad when you can't make that walk anymore.

Wow, heaven forbid if someone in Metro Detroit walks a few blocks to another destination and they also have the right to do so safely!!!

Then again, that's WJBK for you!!!

**gnome** · December-22-11, 08:50 AM

From the Channel 2 link:

Later in the evening for reasons unknown, Groat was walking three blocks away at Grand River and Bagley. Detroit Police say he ran into three men with weapons.

If DPD has no idea who or how this happened, how do they know that 3 men, each with weapons, committed this crime?

**Zacha341** · December-22-11, 09:09 AM

That's right! Something is off with this whole story and I'm reading 'loud and clear' that downtown is not walkable, not really. That's why I could not wait to get back to driving. I save my walking for a treadmill.

Who else witnessed the trio that murdered this man? It's a shame you can't walk about more than a few feet beyond the invisible fences; beyond the supposed 'safety' zones. He was the single parent of a child and now he is gone. Very sad.

Read from this report: Park close to your destination! Get BACK in your car to go across the street! Repeat the process: Park close! No walking!!! If you KNOW WHAT'S GOOD FOR YOU!

Yeah ok, if that's how it is [[and it is IMO) then Downtown is not all that, in terms of safety. NOT THAT I EVER THOUGHT IT WAS! DPD knows more than we are being told!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by gnome

From the Channel 2 link:

If DPD has no idea who or how this happened, how do they know that 3 men, each with weapons, committed this crime?

**DetroitPlanner** · December-22-11, 09:14 AM

The sad thing is that anyone walking around near a casino is seen as an easy mark. The thieves know there is a good chance that this person is carrying some money and that the cops will take quite a while to show-up. I'm sure MGM, DTE, and even the Leland are well camera-ed [[sp?). This would be the first place from the casino where it is not if the person is heading towards downtown.

**Zacha341** · December-22-11, 09:15 AM

Yep, everyone best read this for what it is [[the obvious and between the lines). 'Walking' is dangerous, making you a target as crime escalates. Back when I used to visit the Detroit casino's I did the valet or parked close to the entrance doors from the inside garage.

Once you're outside the perimeters of the casino things drop off drastically, sadly. Around MGM you see very few people walking, for just such reasons. The myth that downtown is safer is well, a myth.

Originally Posted by 401don

"Police are Stumped. Why was Groat walking 3 blocks from the casino."

He was walking on a main street toward downtown. Maybe he was heading to the Times Square People Mover or to a bar on Park St. Pretty sad when you can't make that walk anymore.

**Zacha341** · December-22-11, 09:21 AM

Yes, random violence [[which has been up the last three weeks) within Detroit upon its citizens and visitors is a big deterrent to core revitalization fiscal or otherwise, and yet policing is to be reduced!? Crazy!

Originally Posted by Zaddik

How will Detroit ever solve its problems? How will suburbanites feel safe coming into this city to spend their entertainment dollars, when on any given night, if you stray a block or two off the beaten path, you can be knifed or shot and left in the gutter? Add back in random violent crime as another factor which must be overcome to ever bring this city back.

**Lowell** · December-22-11, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by gnome

From the Channel 2 link:

If DPD has no idea who or how this happened, how do they know that 3 men, each with weapons, committed this crime?

That was my first thought also. Get-it-out fast reporting is a fault here. Why weren't the police at least asked Gnome's question? Was he also robbed? Fox had plenty of time to interview his friend and figure out his back story.

I have little basis for this, other than past crime stories, but this smells of a deal gone bad. The answer as to why he would have allegedly left the casino and walked so far away should be at the heart of this mystery. For instance, could he have been bundled into a car and then dumped there? Very few crimes are random.

**Islandman** · December-22-11, 10:38 AM

Yeah, something is off. There is no reason to go north to Grand River if you're going downtown from MGM. Also, there are plenty of cabs right in front of MGM. Why go for a stroll at midnight in the wrong direction? Not saying this was his fault at all, just curious as to his actions.

**Hamtragedy** · December-22-11, 10:51 AM

Grand River, Cass & Bagley all cross at roughly the same intersection. It could be easy enough for someone unfamiliar to get lost, and there are still two or three streets that run east of the casino that would put you right on Gd River, in a rather short walk, before you made your way south a block or two to Bagley.

**Zacha341** · December-22-11, 10:52 AM

^^^^ And how do we know he was going north? Just because he was on a certain side of the street? If so much was seen, observed, why did it happen and why haven't they caught the killers?

**Islandman** · December-22-11, 11:19 AM

Oops, for some reason I had 3rd Street and Grand River in my head. Please disregard previous post.

**theosakakoneko** · December-22-11, 01:45 PM

I really dislike all the victim blaming in the original post. This is so close to so many destinations in that area. Grand River and Bagley...wouldn't that even be visible from Lucy and Ethel's [[Leland diner)? It's not like he was on some unpopulated dark street which would normally be considered less than safe. I walk this area at night all the time...I'm careful and watch my surroundings like a hawk and try to be diligent, but I don't like hearing this. I wish I did know what exactly went down - was it a random mugging [[scariest for me), or was he really involved in something he shouldn't have been, as they seem to want to imply [[no way of knowing, so we really can't assume this). More lighting on these streets would be appreciated, at the very least...

**Patrick** · December-22-11, 04:48 PM

Bad drug deal perhaps?

**j to the jeremy** · December-22-11, 05:01 PM

As someone who walks around that area a lot, even at night, [[

) I can say that this is really unfortunate. The area isn't far from a lot of popular bars, the bus station, the Leland, and GCP. I believe this either had to be some sort of shady deal gone bad, or this guy was simply walking to the bar district in GCP and these men followed him out of the casino, knowing he had $$$ on him.

Either way this is bad. Every few years there's a killing downtown and it makes everybody think twice. I wouldn't say that downtown is unsafe, as a rule, but if there is ONE unsafe part of it, it's the area behind the GAR building leading up to the Cass Corridor, and the blocks aound Grand River in that area.

If Jane Jacobs were alive today, she would point out that this lack of safety is largely caused by the demolition of all those buildings behind the Fox, which Illitch has turned into parking. There are also a ton of parking lots around the intersection this stabbing happened at. The lack of foot traffic back there leads to a spooky vibe of "wasteland" at night. Couple this with poor street lighting, and you have a recipe for a stabbing or 2.

**Gistok** · December-22-11, 05:03 PM

This is the area of the crime.... [[center left)...
http://www.forgottendetroit.com/gar/31.htm

**stasu1213** · December-22-11, 05:16 PM

Originally Posted by 401don

"Police are Stumped. Why was Groat walking 3 blocks from the casino."

He was walking on a main street toward downtown. Maybe he was heading to the Times Square People Mover or to a bar on Park St. Pretty sad when you can't make that walk anymore.

It's a free country. The man could walk anywhere he want anytime he want to. I am stumped about the lack of police patrol in downtown detroit

**evergreen** · December-22-11, 08:43 PM

I was mugged this year in broad daylight in a very well populated part of Detroit [[no vacant homes or buildings nearby) while walking less than a few yards from my car to a house.

Folks, you are not safe in any part of Detroit at any time. We all make the best calculations we can to figure out how to conduct our lives safely, but criminals have quite overwhelmed this city. This influences every aspect of living in Detroit.

There is absolutely no rational basis for expecting any improvement.

**Patrick** · December-22-11, 08:54 PM

Originally Posted by evergreen

I was mugged this year in broad daylight in a very well populated part of Detroit [[no vacant homes or buildings nearby) while walking less than a few yards from my car to a house.

Folks, you are not safe in any part of Detroit at any time. We all make the best calculations we can to figure out how to conduct our lives safely, but criminals have quite overwhelmed this city. This influences every aspect of living in Detroit.

There is absolutely no rational basis for expecting any improvement.

Don't say that shit around the 313 defenders on this site...they'll bust a cap in your ass lol

Ravine · December-22-11, 10:44 PM

Let's examine this pairing of statement with interrogative.

"Police are stumped. Why was Groat walking three blocks from the casino?"

The source of the report has stated that the police are stumped.
While, probably, we can believe that statement to be true, the source of the report has followed the statement with a question which may, or may not, have been asked by the cops.
By following the statement with that question, the source of the report has conjured up the implication that it is the police who were scratching their heads over that one when, in fact, the reader has no just cause for believing any such thing.
The cops, I am certain, can think of several reasons why the victim was where he was. They may wish to know, for sure, why, but I truly doubt that they said anything about being "stumped" by that part of the incident.
Reporters, these days, are a stupid, half-literate, and sneaky lot; it's best to not infer something just because they implied it.