Bing: I killed train because you wanted me to

**Russix** · December-18-11, 12:28 AM

http://www.detnews.com/article/20111...ed-bus-transit

"I'm pretty clear for my reasons for this. I answer to the people of Detroit. It's as simple as that." - Dave Bing

Don't Agree? Click here:

http://www.facebook.com/groups/LightRailNow/

**R8RBOB** · December-18-11, 06:56 AM

Bing is pathetic but we elected him.

Here's the thing: Bing was quoted saying the following.

"The business community is an important part of the city, [[but) I have to look out for the majority who live and work here. Woodward [[light rail) is not going to be the answer for the people with transportation needs. This is a better solution, without a doubt."

If he is going to live by that statement, someone should ask him how is he going to address the transportation needs for the rest of the city? As it stands, the Snyder superbuses are to run along four roads but what about the rider that is located on 7Mile and Lasher..err Lahser?[[hee.hee, it will be always Lasher) If the light-rail didn't address their needs then how is the Snyder fleet is going address their needs.

I hate how Bing is trying to spin it stating that Detroiters need to get to work in the suburbs so that's why we need the Snyder superbuses. He is a joke

**Zacha341** · December-18-11, 09:04 AM

I don't support that Woodward train idea either but he sounds like such a crank and fake.... Again he's pretending to be down for the 'peeps'. How condescending.

Originally Posted by Russix

http://www.detnews.com/article/20111...ed-bus-transit

"I'm pretty clear for my reasons for this. I answer to the people of Detroit. It's as simple as that." - Dave Bing

Don't Agree? Click here:

http://www.facebook.com/groups/LightRailNow/

**brizee** · December-18-11, 09:05 AM

When someone does a complete about face on a position there's usually a catalyst.

He was trumpeting this light rail project as something that would save Detroit money in the long run as recently as this summer during the budget talks.

The only, and I mean ONLY time he started tooting this bus horn is when Snyder first mentioned it back in October.

What is Bing getting out of this? The cynical/misanthropist side of me is imagining the EFM stick being used on Bing to "reeducate" him on his transit thoughts.

PS. I find his transformation from all business, soft-spoken, eunuch, inoffensive pussy to sailor-mouthed, fight-picking, balls-hang low tough guy to be quite pandering and offensive.

**iheartthed** · December-18-11, 09:20 AM

This bus plan does not make Detroiters more mobile than light rail. Mayor, please stop talking to everyone as if they are stupid and won't eventually figure it out.

Just be honest: you needed a carrot stick to get Oakland and Macomb to sign on to a RTA.

**R8RBOB** · December-18-11, 09:39 AM

Originally Posted by brizee

When someone does a complete about face on a position there's usually a catalyst.

He was trumpeting this light rail project as something that would save Detroit money in the long run as recently as this summer during the budget talks.

The only, and I mean ONLY time he started tooting this bus horn is when Snyder first mentioned it back in October.

What is Bing getting out of this? The cynical/misanthropist side of me is imagining the EFM stick being used on Bing to "reeducate" him on his transit thoughts.

PS. I find his transformation from all business, soft-spoken, eunuch, inoffensive pussy to sailor-mouthed, fight-picking, balls-hang low tough guy to be quite pandering and offensive.

Bing was elected mayor in 2009 and not once did he suggest that Detroit should go to a BRT for transit. The light-rail project have been discussed for the last four years and Bing was not a dissenting voice to the project...that is until now when Massa Snyder suggested that Metro Detroit should use a BRT and now Bing is all in. What a clown.

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Just be honest: you needed a carrot stick to get Oakland and Macomb to sign on to a RTA.

Any RTA that does not include taking over DDOT and SMART [[debt included) will be a failure for the region. To build up this new RTA and at the same time have two failing bus systems being bled slowly is a loser for those Detroiters who need to use the buses to get to their jobs in the suburbs.

**stasu1213** · December-18-11, 11:04 AM

Where is the outrage from council? He had pissed on them on this. He had not discussed this last minute change of plan with them before the announcement. The only thing that Charles Pugh had said was that it was as bad move. The council had been outrage about other items that the Mayor hasn't discussed with them. Why not this. I feel that Bing and council were just posteuring saying that they will support light rail. Bing probably was against it from the beginning. He had assigned the DEGC to be in charge of it's developemint instead of a Transit Authority. What group of residents of Detroit who wanted this BRT that Bing was referring to? Was it his cronies who reside in the city part time? The city will have a hard time having any type of light rail running in it's street. GM, Chrysler, and Ford are not going to make it easy for the regional to get it. They could put in Bing as Mayor as well as grease the palms or elected officials in the suburbs to go against it. Sounds far fetched? Probably but it can't be ruled out.

**MSUguy** · December-18-11, 11:55 AM

Another place where you might want to comment

https://www.facebook.com/CityofDetroit#!/MayorDaveBing

**mikeg19** · December-18-11, 01:01 PM

M1 is still going to try to get the 3.4 mile line built. If that is funded with private money, do you think the city would still build that portion?

Another thought. I haven't read much into the new bus plan yet, but I can see where the preliminary 110mile compared to 10 miles of service seems like a much better option for people. I'm not quite understanding the gripes of people. Obviously bus service won't spur as much "anticipated" economic activity along the routes as the LTR would. Is that the main reason for everyone being pissed, aside from Bing flip flopping all over the place?

**Russix** · December-18-11, 05:11 PM

Because if we don't get a shovel in the ground now for LRT, 5 years of planning and engineering will pass for BRT, and Dave Bing will say, "Nah, nobody wants this" and kill it

http://www.facebook.com/groups/LightRailNow/

**Bham1982** · December-18-11, 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by mikeg19

M1 is still going to try to get the 3.4 mile line built. If that is funded with private money, do you think the city would still build that portion?

Who is going to pay the operating costs? Funding a new transit line is in many ways much easier than maintaining service.

If I were Bing, I would not agree to this downtown trolley. The city can't afford the operating costs, and the proposal is of very limited utility.

And I would imagine it's incompatabile with BRT service. We aren't going to take four lanes of roadway out of service for transit.

**mwilbert** · December-18-11, 10:40 PM

I don't see how you can run both BRT and a streetcar down Woodward without totally screwing up traffic flow. Maybe if you were willing to get rid of all the on-street parking, but that seems rather unlikely.

**casscorridor** · December-19-11, 12:48 AM

This is totally absurd. Bing should be ashamed of himself.

As far as this new plan being a better option, that is crazy talk. Woodward light-rail could have been breaking ground this coming summer, fully operational all the way to the State Fairgrounds by 2015. The so-called "BRT" plan won't even be to environmental impact study by then. Not to mention, there still needs to be a dedicated funding source and the proposed service mimics current services that have been cut [[as of last Monday). Especially interesting is the M-59 corridor section, where there is currently no bus service at all [[there was a very limited route that connected to Auburn Hills, but that has been cut), and almost no demand for bus service. The better option is funding our EXISTING bus systems, making improvements to the buses and routes, and working toward an RTA that can oversee both SMART, DDOT and other transit providers. Again, the BRT plan will take as long as a decade to be operational, and even seeing it become a reality at all is gamble.

Another thing that hasn't been discussed much is this idea that this plan will serve way more people than the Woodward Light-Rail project, which seems very unrealistic. No one is arguing that a single line of light-rail will solve our transit crisis [[and it is a crisis). But the BRT as proposed is not a substitute for light-rail. Clevelend keeps coming up as an example, but the BRT route there is fairly short [[more similar to the Woodward rail length), it doesn't stretch over a hundred miles across an entire region, it is simply just a compliment to the heavy-rail and light-rail system. What I am saying is that because the proposed routes are incredibly long so there is going to be very minimal improvement over the bus service circa before last Monday. This mean very few people who don't already ride the bus will be riding this thing [[and honestly, I don't even know if those people will ride it, because the stops are so far apart, an average of two miles). It is a well known fact on this form that people in the U.S. don't generally take the bus unless they have to. What makes people think this will change with a gloried bus line?

Woodward rail is A) shovel ready, could be under construction next year and will be functional as soon as 10 years BEFORE any BRT system B) expandable, and there is already a 2 million dollar grant going toward planning an extension of the line into Oakland County C) will dramatically improve existing transit service on the busiest transit corridor in Michigan while both increasing bus usage as people use buses to connect to rail AND providing a catalyst for much needed development along one of America's quintessential main streets.

So to sum it up what we need is:
1. Fund the current bus systems with emergency funds [[DDOT and SMART), and improve the existing services, making the existing route more frequent and have better signage and shelters.
2. Keep the Light-rail plan, along with the proposed extension into Oakland County.
3. Create an RTA that will maintain funding for transit in Metro Detroit.
4. After the creation of an RTA, develop a region-wide, comprehensive transit plan that could include more light-rail, commuter-rail or BRT.

We need to follow this order because the Woodward LRT is almost ready for construction, and we won't get another chance like this in at least a decade, and we'll have three years to develop an Regional Transit Authority that can fund the rail line and come up with a plan that WILL give service at the level that Bing *THINKS* he can provide with this faux-BRT plan. But don't sacrifice this CRITICAL ingredient in Detroit's redevelopment plan for a risky gamble!

**467riverfix** · December-19-11, 07:18 AM

The Woodward light rail was a boondoggle in the making - this century's People Mover! Hurray for Bing and LaHood. Fast buses are the way to go. Of course Detroit doesn't know what a fast bus is, let alone a bus.

**Zacha341** · December-19-11, 07:56 AM

Agreed. Woodward Light Rail is too much money, local, state and or federal [[well all light rail seems ot need federal funding) in one place, down one road, even if it's going all the way to Pontiac, MI! When your car is down or you don't or can't drive you need transportation in many directions with the option to get to varied suburbs, with some level of reliability.

Originally Posted by 467riverfix

The Woodward light rail was a boondoggle in the making - this century's People Mover! Hurray for Bing and LaHood. Fast buses are the way to go. Of course Detroit doesn't know what a fast bus is, let alone a bus.

**Dexlin** · December-19-11, 08:17 AM

How many more times does it have to be said that the Woodward LRT was part of a regional transit plan? The Regional Transit and Coordinating Committee decided a few years back after much study that the the plan is to have a mix of regular buses, BRT, and one LRT line down Woodward. The Woodward LRT was the one that was the furthest along in planning, the one they decided to build first.

The BRT and LRT weren't ever supposed to be competing projects, because the master plan wasn't ever to use BRT on Woodward. Snyder took a regionally decided upon plan, a plan with input from all counties involved, and essentially threw it out the window. Who are Snyder and Bing to take years of studies and millions of dollars and a finished regional mass transit plan and decide that it doesn't matter? It'd be one thing if they'd said they wanted to develop the BRT portion of the plan which was to be along the major spokes, first. It's entirely another to displace this plan with a new one that doesn't exist. Snyder can lie up and down all day long that there is a seperate BRT plan for the region apart from the one decided upon by the RTCC. It was decided after extensive study that LRT would be the locally prefered alternative [[LPA) along Woodward, so that was the only thing extensively studied and developed.

I wonder if Snyder and Bing even know that this exists?

Comprehensive Regional Transit Serivce Plan [[2008)

**iheartthed** · December-19-11, 11:22 AM

Likewise, Detroit Mayor Dave Bing's communications team said the city's financial situation wasn't an issue -- the decision was made because rapid-bus transit serves more Detroiters.

But others with knowledge of the decision say that's not so.

"Everyone knew that the regional bus plan was the only plan that was going to garner the support of the county executives," the source said. "And because of that, LaHood brought Dave Bing to the table to say, "Look, you don't have the financial wherewithal to get this done anyway.' "

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...ere-it-started

As I said before, this bus plan does not service Detroiters any more than the previously planned rail line. The only reason it won is to appease Oakland and Macomb.

**Russix** · December-19-11, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by casscorridor

This is totally absurd. Bing should be ashamed of himself.

As far as this new plan being a better option, that is crazy talk. Woodward light-rail could have been breaking ground this coming summer, fully operational all the way to the State Fairgrounds by 2015. The so-called "BRT" plan won't even be to environmental impact study by then. Not to mention, there still needs to be a dedicated funding source and the proposed service mimics current services that have been cut [[as of last Monday). Especially interesting is the M-59 corridor section, where there is currently no bus service at all [[there was a very limited route that connected to Auburn Hills, but that has been cut), and almost no demand for bus service. The better option is funding our EXISTING bus systems, making improvements to the buses and routes, and working toward an RTA that can oversee both SMART, DDOT and other transit providers. Again, the BRT plan will take as long as a decade to be operational, and even seeing it become a reality at all is gamble.

Another thing that hasn't been discussed much is this idea that this plan will serve way more people than the Woodward Light-Rail project, which seems very unrealistic. No one is arguing that a single line of light-rail will solve our transit crisis [[and it is a crisis). But the BRT as proposed is not a substitute for light-rail. Clevelend keeps coming up as an example, but the BRT route there is fairly short [[more similar to the Woodward rail length), it doesn't stretch over a hundred miles across an entire region, it is simply just a compliment to the heavy-rail and light-rail system. What I am saying is that because the proposed routes are incredibly long so there is going to be very minimal improvement over the bus service circa before last Monday. This mean very few people who don't already ride the bus will be riding this thing [[and honestly, I don't even know if those people will ride it, because the stops are so far apart, an average of two miles). It is a well known fact on this form that people in the U.S. don't generally take the bus unless they have to. What makes people think this will change with a gloried bus line?

Woodward rail is A) shovel ready, could be under construction next year and will be functional as soon as 10 years BEFORE any BRT system B) expandable, and there is already a 2 million dollar grant going toward planning an extension of the line into Oakland County C) will dramatically improve existing transit service on the busiest transit corridor in Michigan while both increasing bus usage as people use buses to connect to rail AND providing a catalyst for much needed development along one of America's quintessential main streets.

So to sum it up what we need is:
1. Fund the current bus systems with emergency funds [[DDOT and SMART), and improve the existing services, making the existing route more frequent and have better signage and shelters.
2. Keep the Light-rail plan, along with the proposed extension into Oakland County.
3. Create an RTA that will maintain funding for transit in Metro Detroit.
4. After the creation of an RTA, develop a region-wide, comprehensive transit plan that could include more light-rail, commuter-rail or BRT.

We need to follow this order because the Woodward LRT is almost ready for construction, and we won't get another chance like this in at least a decade, and we'll have three years to develop an Regional Transit Authority that can fund the rail line and come up with a plan that WILL give service at the level that Bing *THINKS* he can provide with this faux-BRT plan. But don't sacrifice this CRITICAL ingredient in Detroit's redevelopment plan for a risky gamble!

This great post has been added to Light Rail Now's documents. http://www.facebook.com/groups/LightRailNow/

**ghettopalmetto** · December-19-11, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by Zacha341

Agreed. Woodward Light Rail is too much money, local, state and or federal [[well all light rail seems ot need federal funding) in one place, down one road, even if it's going all the way to Pontiac, MI! When your car is down or you don't or can't drive you need transportation in many directions with the option to get to varied suburbs, with some level of reliability.

I wonder if you said the same thing when I-696 was under construction.

**mwilbert** · December-19-11, 04:58 PM

Woodward Light Rail is too much money, local, state and or federal [[well all light rail seems ot need federal funding) in one place, down one road, even if it's going all the way to Pontiac, MI!

I believe the concept behind this statement is mistaken. It is a lot of money, but what we need in metro Detroit is more concentration of resources, not the dispersion which seems to be the norm. If you spread services all around, unless you have a really big pot of money, they won't even be noticeable. It is the density of existing activity around Woodward that would have made the LRT potentially transformational [[in a limited area, I'll admit).

Since I don't think the BRT will ever exist, I doubt it will transform anything, but assuming it is eventually constructed, it will certainly be many years later, and I don't think there is any likelihood of any critical mass of transit-related development around the other arterials.

**casscorridor** · December-19-11, 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by mwilbert

I believe the concept behind this statement is mistaken. It is a lot of money, but what we need in metro Detroit is more concentration of resources, not the dispersion which seems to be the norm. If you spread services all around, unless you have a really big pot of money, they won't even be noticeable. It is the density of existing activity around Woodward that would have made the LRT potentially transformational [[in a limited area, I'll admit).

Since I don't think the BRT will ever exist, I doubt it will transform anything, but assuming it is eventually constructed, it will certainly be many years later, and I don't think there is any likelihood of any critical mass of transit-related development around the other arterials.

Yeah, you really summarized a very solid argument here. I would add that Michigan has a big problem with this idea that we need to spread all our resources across every inch of the state/region like it's peanut butter... which is why we have some of the most expansive sprawl relative to the size/density of our central city. We really need some serious focus on one corridor, Woodward, before we can move on to other areas. We need at least one large, vibrant area of the city with excellent transit, services and amenities that can then spread to other areas.

**GoGrixdale** · December-19-11, 08:10 PM

Originally Posted by mwilbert

I believe the concept behind this statement is mistaken. It is a lot of money, but what we need in metro Detroit is more concentration of resources, not the dispersion which seems to be the norm. If you spread services all around, unless you have a really big pot of money, they won't even be noticeable. It is the density of existing activity around Woodward that would have made the LRT potentially transformational [[in a limited area, I'll admit).

Since I don't think the BRT will ever exist, I doubt it will transform anything, but assuming it is eventually constructed, it will certainly be many years later, and I don't think there is any likelihood of any critical mass of transit-related development around the other arterials.

Originally Posted by casscorridor

Yeah, you really summarized a very solid argument here. I would add that Michigan has a big problem with this idea that we need to spread all our resources across every inch of the state/region like it's peanut butter... which is why we have some of the most expansive sprawl relative to the size/density of our central city. We really need some serious focus on one corridor, Woodward, before we can move on to other areas. We need at least one large, vibrant area of the city with excellent transit, services and amenities that can then spread to other areas.

Nothing to say but...

+1

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · December-19-11, 08:24 PM

I support light rail and hope it does get built, but I am totally opposed to even starting construction until all financing is completely in place, including the source [[certainly not the city's budget!) for the operating losses. Worse than no light rail is explaining to the world why we have those rails laid down Woodward and no trains running...

**stasu1213** · December-19-11, 09:08 PM

A light rail system would had been running by now if Karmanos, Penske, and Gilbert had their way. Their's were a simple one that would had ran from Jefferson to New Center area. They had allowed other entites to throw that "regional" idea on their plans sabatoging the whole thing

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · December-19-11, 09:25 PM

It takes a profound and wonderful commitment to the city by Gilbert-Penske-Ilitch-Karmanos to not give up when their attempts to do good things for the city are screwed up by the city's official leadership. One note, Stasu, though, is that I don't think the private consortium had a plan to subsidize the operating costs for the light rail [[if I recall correctly). They would have provided much of the construction money. But I am not sure they would have coughed up the running costs, and certainly not in perpetuity. Mass transit takes subsidy. The bulk of that subsidy would need to come from state and local sources. My idea would be a 4-county mass transit authority, which would levy a 1% sales tax in those counties. But until a plan is in place, it is just not productive to build something that you may not be able to afford to run. You wouldn't build a school if you couldn't pay the teachers to work there [[well, maybe DPS would...). I just wish that the legislature would establish a regional transit system. That would get the ball rolling. We could have light rail in 2-3 years after a fully detailed plan is created. But not until then.

PS I don't hate a BRT plan, but it is inferior to light rail in a number of ways. Ideally, BRT systems would supplement and connect to light rail line[[s). And I would prefer regionalized and modern BRT to the current system. Plan B is not as good as Plan A, but a Plan B that gets implemented is better than a Plan A that never leaves the engineering design.