Transfer the People Mover to M-1 Rail

[lo_to_d]

Here's an idea... be gentle if it's completely ignorant on some fronts.

1. Transfer control of the Detroit Transportation Corp. [[People Mover operator) to M-1 rail. Saving the City and State $4.5 Million in annual subsidies.
2. Allow them to expand The People mover up Woodward to the Amtrak station using the $100 million they have pledged [[which is about 40% of the estimated cost to build the rail line from River to Amtrak station).
3. Transfer the track to grade somehow near the Grand Circus Station. Build only 4 stations I-375, Mack, Warren, I-94 [[40% of the number of stations originally planned) [[the downtown loop was redundant with the People Mover anyway)
4. M-1 then becomes responsible to operate the loop as a non-profit, using increased advertising dollars to make up the short fall of no government subsidy.

I know this is completely simplified, but it seems like a win, win. Because let's be honest, the People Mover is going dark in two-years if nothing is done.

[antongast]

The DTC's combined annual city and state subsidy is more like $10.3 million. I don't know where you got $4.5 from.

[Mikeg]

M-1 is not a government agency, it is a private group that pledged $100 million for a 3.4 mile long light-rail system beginning at Jefferson Ave. This whole Woodward light-rail project went "off the rails" because it got expanded to a 9+ mile long system that brought with it a whole bunch of Federal involvement, which doomed M-1's plans.

If M-1 wanted to include the People Mover in their plans, they would have done so - but they were smart enough to not include it.

[DetroitPlanner]

M-1 is not a government agency, it is a private group that pledged $100 million for a 3.4 mile long light-rail system beginning at Jefferson Ave. This whole Woodward light-rail project went "off the rails" because it got expanded to a 9+ mile long system that brought with it a whole bunch of Federal involvement, which doomed M-1's plans.

If M-1 wanted to include the People Mover in their plans, they would have done so - but they were smart enough to not include it.

There would be no way to build this without federal involvement. Woodward is M-1, a national scenic byway. Every project done to reconstruct it has used federal money. Reconstruction was to be part of the project as you can't build a railroad without shoring up its base first.

[laphoque]

It would be great to actually make the People Mover useful like that. It doesn't need to be at grade either IMO. A successful transit system [[which is what we hope to build) will need to be elevated or buried once at grade capacity has peaked.

[lo_to_d]

I believe the state and city subsidy was cut in half for the next budget year.I didn't say there wouldn't be federal involvement. The Bridge company is a private company that works with the feds. I'm well aware that M1 is not a government agency and I believe they originally vowed to build the smaller piece without federal money. Use the match for their bus system.

[lo_to_d]

It would be great to actually make the People Mover useful like that. It doesn't need to be at grade either IMO. A successful transit system [[which is what we hope to build) will need to be elevated or buried once at grade capacity has peaked.

I think the price tag would balloon though?

[ndavies]

The people mover is automated. It doesn't have a driver. It is powered by a system that cannot be driven over by other vehicles. It is not compatible with other ground vehicles. The people movers technology requires it to be grade separated. The technology is not compatible with standard street car controls and cost far more than a standard street car.

It would cost far more to extend the people mover than it would to install the M1 type system due to the requirement of grade separation.

[Hypestyles]

I don't see the smaller-scale rail line happening either, even though that financial burden would "mainly" fall on the private investor group.. still too much red tape..

[lo_to_d]

Good point... but it doesn't have to be the same technology. Build the light rail, but raise it up above grade only at the grand circus connection and integrate the payment procedure so it's the same as the people mover. People just transfer to the People Mover.

The people mover is automated. It doesn't have a driver. It is powered by a system that cannot be driven over by other vehicles. It is not compatible with other ground vehicles. The people movers technology requires it to be grade separated. The technology is not compatible with standard street car controls and cost far more than a standard street car.

It would cost far more to extend the people mover than it would to install the M1 type system due to the requirement of grade separation.

[ndavies]

Then I guess I don't understand what you're proposing? If the system isn't any cheaper, where are you going to get the funds to operate it? The problem with M1 is the business men have only come up with the money to build it. They don't have the money to subsidize operating it.

If they don't have an operational tax subsidy, the system won't have enough money to operate. That's why the feds are backing away from M1. It will become insolvent without the continuous injection of tax funds.

No street car in the country runs without an external source of taxpayer money. There isn't a total self funding streetcar system anywhere in this country.

[Detroitnerd]

Extend the People Mover up Woodward? Oooh, neat!

While we're at it, why not implement this system?

http://www.cprt.org/CPRT/Home.html

[Danny]

Here's an idea... be gentle if it's completely ignorant on some fronts.

1. Transfer control of the Detroit Transportation Corp. [[People Mover operator) to M-1 rail. Saving the City and State $4.5 Million in annual subsidies.
2. Allow them to expand The People mover up Woodward to the Amtrak station using the $100 million they have pledged [[which is about 40% of the estimated cost to build the rail line from River to Amtrak station).
3. Transfer the track to grade somehow near the Grand Circus Station. Build only 4 stations I-375, Mack, Warren, I-94 [[40% of the number of stations originally planned) [[the downtown loop was redundant with the People Mover anyway)
4. M-1 then becomes responsible to operate the loop as a non-profit, using increased advertising dollars to make up the short fall of no government subsidy.

I know this is completely simplified, but it seems like a win, win. Because let's be honest, the People Mover is going dark in two-years if nothing is done.

I'm going to have to agree with mikeg's comments. That plan is not going to work. Today our mass transit in Detroit and its suburbs is on the D-DOT and SMART'S lifeline. And since there is little regional growth no more state, local and federal dollars going to any proposed mass transit. We should have a discussion with jobs, jobs, jobs, before could see mass transit.

Nice try lo_to_d

[DetroitPlanner]

Eventually I hope that all of these modes/agencies will be under one RTA so one will not need to be worry about who owns who, and that they are all coordinated at a higher level.

[bailey]

Eventually I hope that all of these modes/agencies will be under one RTA so one will not need to be worry about who owns who, and that they are all coordinated at a higher level.

Seconded. That way it can be one big epic fail instead of a bunch of little ones.

[WALD0123]

I've been a huge proponent of simply expanding the People Mover up Woodward since the beginning. I've never understood why we ignore an already built ROW that does an excellent job serving downtown.

The People Mover does run on a non-compatible automated technology but that could easily be scrapped. The rail gauge is standard and could accommodate the same rolling stock as planned with the M1 line. Simply run the rails at grade up Woodward and have them join up with the People Mover rails somewhere around Grand Circus.

The expense, both upfront and operationally, is still an issue. However, merging the two projects should decrease both costs. No new stations or rail laid downtown and the People Mover's budget is absorbed into the M1 budget. I would eliminate stops on both lines, again saving money.

I strongly believe such a line will only be truly successful for transit and economic development when it can run further north into Oakland County serving the population bases and downtowns like Ferndale, Royal Oak, etc. However, this would be an excellent step in the right direction that takes advantage of already dedicated private money.

[Wesley Mouch]

...
Reconstruction was to be part of the project as you can't build a railroad without shoring up its base first.

A friend in the rail industry reminded me recently that the old streetcar rails remain under Woodward N of I-75. The railroad bed designed to handle light rail is in place. The rails were of the highest quality rail possible, exceeding today's standards, and likely could be re-used.

Reduce, reuse, recycle.

[mikeg19]

A friend in the rail industry reminded me recently that the old streetcar rails remain under Woodward N of I-75. The railroad bed designed to handle light rail is in place. The rails were of the highest quality rail possible, exceeding today's standards, and likely could be re-used.

Reduce, reuse, recycle.

Very Interesting. Was it only up Woodward they they pretty much pave over all of them or did they actually rip the other ones out?

[DetroitPlanner]

A friend in the rail industry reminded me recently that the old streetcar rails remain under Woodward N of I-75. The railroad bed designed to handle light rail is in place. The rails were of the highest quality rail possible, exceeding today's standards, and likely could be re-used.

Reduce, reuse, recycle.

Whats the gage? New streetcars are a narrower gage than the old ones. Are they located along the curb like the millionaires want them? How much corrosion has happened to those incomplete and cut up rails? There are plenty of places where those old rails are missing due to reconstructions, utility cuts, new paver bricks.....

[Wesley Mouch]

Whats the gage? New streetcars are a narrower gage than the old ones. Are they located along the curb like the millionaires want them? How much corrosion has happened to those incomplete and cut up rails? There are plenty of places where those old rails are missing due to reconstructions, utility cuts, new paver bricks.....

Don't know the gage. I do recall that Detroit's streetcars had to be re-engineered to run in Mexico City. They are running down the center of the street, like every other streetcar system. [[Where'd this odd curb idea get its traction? [[pun intended)). I was them in Foxtown when they replaced the street, and they appeared to be in fine condition 20 years ago. Woodward's well maintained, and there's likely little moisture -- unlike Michigan Avenue where they're poking up all over the place.

[Russix]

I would actually be in favor of shutting down the People Mover[[except for auto show/game days or when lots of people need transit between various parking districts) and subsidizing WWLR's operating costs. This would serve a heck of lot more people and would eventually generate the tax base to run both again.

Aslo, you can buy a transfer and cross a street to ride both without spending millions of dollars trying to integrate them into one.

[Dexlin]

No street car in the country runs without an external source of taxpayer money. There isn't a total self funding streetcar system anywhere in this country.

I don't know what people don't get about this. It was never M1-Rail's intention to be in the transit business. What they wanted to do was provide the capital cost to build the system, and either get money from the city to operate it, or have DDOT be the operator. Operating a transit system is not a money-making venture. I'm sure you could make money off a tiny trolley line for tourist in a high-tourist-traffic city, but that's even rare.

So, again, to reiterate ndavies point, M1 was never looking to be a long-term transit operator.

However, all that said, there was a proposal put forth by Marsden Burger, former manager of the PM, in 2006 when talk about the Woodward Avenue Light Rail was just beginning, thought would have extended the PM to Henry Ford Hospital for less than $200 million. It seemed totally out of whack, then, but given that we had until a few days ago been building up to building a $500 million light rail line, I wonder if M1 wouldn't take a look at this proposal? This one would be far more their lane seeing as how the PM already has an operator. The problem would remain about where we could find a funding source for its operations, though.

[lo_to_d]

Yes. I know they didn't intend to run it, but at this point how committed are they [[M-1 Rail) to getting it done? I think Gilbert is still very committed. I'm trying to think of how they could convince Bing to get on board. Two big carrots would be cutting the construction cost by 40% so no local funds will be needed and pledging to run the system saving the city $4.5 million annually. Gilbert can oversee another company

Ask the other big downtown corporations to sponsor the existing stations too.
GM, the casinos, DTE, BCBS, DMC, Comerica, etc. Obviously it would have to be a non-profit venture.

[Wesley Mouch]

...
No street car in the country runs without an external source of taxpayer money. There isn't a total self funding streetcar system anywhere in this country.

Again why are streetcars expected to pay for themselves, but the road they run on is subsidized? And no one ever complains about the massive subsidy to roads? But when a streetcar system needs to be subsidized...

[Mikeg]

There would be no way to build this without federal involvement. Woodward is M-1, a national scenic byway. Every project done to reconstruct it has used federal money. Reconstruction was to be part of the project as you can't build a railroad without shoring up its base first.

So what you're trying to tell us is that
a) Ray LaHood and a bunch of elected "seagulls" would have shown up here to announce the federal funding for the road reconstruction portion even if the project just involved the originally proposed 3.4 miles to be built with private funds
b) the red tape associated with that federal road reconstruction funding would have been enough to cause the M-1 group to miss their ground breaking target by more than a year anyway.

Somehow, I don't think so. Expanding the system out to Eight Mile Rd. by using additional federal dollars was the kiss of death for light rail happening on Woodward Avenue anytime soon. Here's hoping that M-1 can keep thier consortium together long enough for a regional transit authority to be formed with a revenue source that is sufficient to fund the operation of both the BRT system and a 3.4 mile light rail system.