Time to Start Discussing Bus Rapid Transit [[BRT) Systems

**Flintoid** · December-13-11, 09:38 PM

So Light Rail is dead. We're all sort of upset. Now that the future seems to be Rapid Transit Buses [[BRT), let's start looking into this. Where has it been successful, what are the normal traits of it, etc. I feel that this could be a good thing with considerably smaller overhead with the same effect as light rail. BRT operates in its own dedicated lane and is basically light rail without the rails and wires above head. Let's try to make productive discussion from this. From what I'm reading, this is more like light rail than DDOT or SMART anyway.

http://www.nbrti.org/index.html

**313WX** · December-13-11, 09:40 PM

Wasn't SMART technically supposed to be a rapid bus transit system for Detroiters?

Also, how are those DDOT rapid transit lines working out?

**Flintoid** · December-13-11, 09:47 PM

Originally Posted by 313WX

Wasn't SMART technically supposed to be a rapid bus transit system for Detroiters?

Also, how are those DDOT rapid transit lines working out?

This sort of shows why there was little support for Woodward Rail. On the bright side, now instead of one line that will end at 8 mile, we will have 3 lines that go into the suburbs. I can assure you that the people on Gratiot or Michigan are not complaining. This could be a good thing, it's not like it's a brand new concept.

**Flintoid** · December-13-11, 09:52 PM

BRT Land Development Benefits
City Benefits
Pittsburgh $300M in development around stations
Ottawa $700M in development around stations
Boston $650M of develpoment occured along the
Washington Street corridor
Brisbane +20% gain in residential values near stations,
initiation of several joint development projects.

This system seems like it could be much easier to expand as well.

**iheartthed** · December-13-11, 09:55 PM

^All of those cities have rail systems as well [[yes, even Pittsburgh).

**313WX** · December-13-11, 09:56 PM

Originally Posted by Flintoid

BRT Land Development Benefits
City Benefits
Pittsburgh $300M in development around stations
Ottawa $700M in development around stations
Boston $650M of develpoment occured along the
Washington Street corridor
Brisbane +20% gain in residential values near stations,
initiation of several joint development projects.

This system seems like it could be much easier to expand as well.

Bad comparison.

There are several significantly different things taking place in those cities that aren't in Detriot.

1. Regionally, their citizens pay way more to fund their system
2. These cities have some type of rail or subway transit to back up their BRT.
3. These cities have regional authorities.

**Richard** · December-13-11, 09:58 PM

and every place a station is located it produces the same numbers.

lilpup · December-13-11, 10:06 PM

and look where else BRT is being implemented despite existing massive rail presence: http://www.mta.info/mta/planning/sbs/whatis.htm

**DetroitPlanner** · December-13-11, 10:08 PM

Originally Posted by 313WX

Wasn't SMART technically supposed to be a rapid bus transit system for Detroiters?

Also, how are those DDOT rapid transit lines working out?

No one was supposed to but the RTA. Since the RTA never happened.... You may be confused because at one time the current head of SMART was the former transit czar under Granholm, but these were different jobs one working with the state, the other for SMART.

**313WX** · December-13-11, 10:11 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

No one was supposed to but the RTA. Since the RTA never happened.... You may be confused because at one time the current head of SMART was the former transit czar under Granholm, but these were different jobs one working with the state, the other for SMART.

I mean SMART is essentially the de-facto rapid transit system for Detroiters [[and suburbanites to a lesser extent) who must commute in/out of the city in a timely manner.

Back in 2008, DDOT also briefly had the rapid transit lines along streets such as Gratiot, where tehy would only stop at certain stops. It didn't last 6 months of course.

**R8RBOB** · December-13-11, 10:11 PM

Originally Posted by Flintoid

So Light Rail is dead. We're all sort of upset. Now that the future seems to be Rapid Transit Buses [[BRT), let's start looking into this. Where has it been successful, what are the normal traits of it, etc. I feel that this could be a good thing with considerably smaller overhead with the same effect as light rail. BRT operates in its own dedicated lane and is basically light rail without the rails and wires above head. Let's try to make productive discussion from this. From what I'm reading, this is more like light rail than DDOT or SMART anyway.

http://www.nbrti.org/index.html

You want a discussion. Let's discuss....
BRT is dead on arrival because suburbanites and Detroiters like me will not choose to park their cars to ride Snyder's high-speed buses. Why is DDOT and SMART dying? Because citizens will not choose to park their cars to ride buses. Not going to happen.

**j to the jeremy** · December-13-11, 10:13 PM

BRT is not a stand-alone system, any more than LRT is. We need a mix, which we will not have now. And all of the examples so far have Regional transit Authorities in place. There is NO MODEL for what our system will look like because we have NO RTA. Sorry but this is going to end very sadly for all of us unless Oakland County gets on board hardcore.

**Jason** · December-13-11, 10:15 PM

BRT is nice and all, but imo it's basically what all buses should be in the first place. Dedicated lanes when possible, improved fare handling, better shelters, better branding...

**R8RBOB** · December-13-11, 10:20 PM

Originally Posted by j to the jeremy

BRT is not a stand-alone system, any more than LRT is. We need a mix, which we will not have now. And all of the examples so far have Regional transit Authorities in place. There is NO MODEL for what our system will look like because we have NO RTA. Sorry but this is going to end very sadly for all of us unless Oakland County gets on board hardcore.

A mix is needed. You are correct but the leaders sadly don't want to hear that.

**Dexlin** · December-13-11, 10:22 PM

Why should we have any faith that even this will be implemented. I don't trust any of our leaders, anymore. I honestly don't even want this to happen. If this state doesn't fail at everything, it half-asses everything else. You've got a metro of 4.3 million, and you think a BRT system is suitable for it. Yeah, and I've a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

**wolverine** · December-13-11, 10:24 PM

Chicago is planning on a BRT system on Western Ave, a corridor already fairly well built out, and alot of new development over the past decade. It will be interesting to see what improvements happen. It should provide a N-S link between many rail lines.

http://www.transitchicago.com/westernbrt/

**DetroitPlanner** · December-13-11, 10:34 PM

Originally Posted by 313WX

I mean SMART is essentially the de-facto rapid transit system for Detroiters [[and suburbanites to a lesser extent) who must commute in/out of the city in a timely manner.

Back in 2008, DDOT also briefly had the rapid transit lines along streets such as Gratiot, where tehy would only stop at certain stops. It didn't last 6 months of course.

Detroit pays $0 to SMART for service. How are they defacto?

**Dexlin** · December-13-11, 10:37 PM

He was obviously saying that the vast majority of SMART's ridership is Detroiters, which happens to be the case. He's using the term "rapid transit" wrong, though. The only piece of rapid transit left in this region is the tiny people mover. DDOT and SMART have been general mass transit systems for a very long time, now.

**313WX** · December-13-11, 10:40 PM

No, I meant what I said. That's why SMART only makes stop to pick up people heading out of town and stops to drop off people heading in, while also only picking up people at stops where they flag the bus down.

It is the de-facto rapid bus system for Detroiters, by Detroit's standards.

**antongast** · December-13-11, 11:03 PM

Originally Posted by Flintoid

I feel that this could be a good thing with considerably smaller overhead with the same effect as light rail.

Not if it's on M-fifty-fucking-nine, and not if we don't fund it [[we won't).

**English** · December-13-11, 11:03 PM

Originally Posted by Dexlin

Why should we have any faith that even this will be implemented. I don't trust any of our leaders, anymore. I honestly don't even want this to happen. If this state doesn't fail at everything, it half-asses everything else. You've got a metro of 4.3 million, and you think a BRT system is suitable for it. Yeah, and I've a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

Totally agreed. I can't believe a word that comes out of any politician's mouth any more. That goes for the city of Detroit, and the state of Michigan.

We can't even make DOT or SMART work. And BRT is going to be a panacea? Please. It will be half funded just like our bus systems were.

**casscorridor** · December-13-11, 11:24 PM

y'all, this isn't about Rail vs. Buses. This is about public transit vs. no public transit. We're not getting SHIT so long as these slash and burn Republocrats are still in office, and we'll be left with no transit, no public schools, no libraries, and no post office. Down with Bing/Snyder.

**ghettopalmetto** · December-14-11, 12:18 AM

So, light rail was killed on the pretense that it would be too expensive. This raises two critical questions:

1. What is going to be done to make these new buses "high speed"?

2. If the City of Detroit cannot afford to operate a light rail line, how will it afford operation of three "high speed" bus lines, when long-term transit data from across the nation shows that rail is cheaper to operate than buses?

**mwilbert** · December-14-11, 12:20 AM

I have the gravest doubts that this will be implemented in any reasonable way, if at all, but I don't think this:

You've got a metro of 4.3 million, and you think a BRT system is suitable for it. Yeah, and I've a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

is a sensible objection. Bogota, which has one of [[if not the most) sophisticated BRT systems in the world has over 6 million people. However, they have also spent a lot of money on their system, and fully integrated it with a system of regular buses. The problem here is that there isn't much to integrate the new system with, and I don't see where any kind of adequate funding would come from.

**corktownyuppie** · December-14-11, 12:23 AM

Originally Posted by mwilbert

I have the gravest doubts that this will be implemented in any reasonable way, if at all, but I don't think this:

is a sensible objection. Bogota, which has one of [[if not the most) sophisticated BRT systems in the world has over 6 million people. However, they have also spent a lot of money on their system, and fully integrated it with a system of regular buses. The problem here is that there isn't much to integrate the new system with, and I don't see where any kind of adequate funding would come from.

At this point, I think a Bogota-style system is an unreasonable expectation. But if this is what it takes for an RTA to just GET ESTABLISHED, and we can get a high speed bus from Ann Arbor to DTW to Detroit, and another from Detroit to Birmingham, Detroit to Selfridge, and Detroit to Novi, I could live with it as a start.