Feds, Snyder kill Woodward Light Rail Line

**Bham1982** · December-13-11, 09:59 PM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Whatever man. Last week I met the president of the company that is developing the Hudson Yards project in Manhattan [[I'm sure you know a little about this...). He said that project was a non-starter without NYC committing to extending the 7 line to the west side.

Hudson Yards, when fully completed, will possibly be the densest concentration of jobs on earth. It's basically the anti-Metro Detroit in terms of spatial jobs concentration.

If Detroit had a similar spatial jobs pattern, I would definitely support heavy rail. But we have a massively dispersed jobs market that is [[IMO) best suited for flexible mobility.

**begingri** · December-13-11, 10:01 PM

I really had some hope. I thought we'd finally pushed through. We had the seed money from private investors and the match the federal government. We were well on our way toward getting light rail. Enough factors were coming together for a unique arrangement that would finally get us light rail.

And now this.

Are you freaking kidding me? I give up on this whole damn metropolitan area. I really had considered sticking around. I am going to graduate right around the time the light rail was slated to open. I was thinking of moving downtown and becoming part of the ever-growing area, complete with mass transit. I don't care how overrated some people think Chicago is, when I graduate from my Master's program, I am heading out of this state.

**Jason** · December-13-11, 10:02 PM

I feel like recently the bus systems have gotten their legs kicked out from under them, but I was hoping that at least the light rail would be built.

For better or worse buses are a flexible short term thing, it's easy to add or remove routes, so when the economy improves some service can be restored. How many decades will it be before there's another serious light rail proposal?

I feel like Snyder has always been pro transit. Bing on the other hand, I don't think he values it. Earlier in his term I feel like he saw DDOT as low hanging budget-cutting fruit, and recently there have been even more DDOT problems.

So after all these years of working on transit, Detroit gets reduced buses all over, with some improvement on Woodward. We were supposed to get an RTA and the first stretch of a light rail system...

I hope the private group builds their section, and I hope they make tons of money off their investments in that area.

**iheartthed** · December-13-11, 10:03 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Hudson Yards, when fully completed, will possibly be the densest concentration of jobs on earth. It's basically the anti-Metro Detroit in terms of spatial jobs concentration.

If Detroit had a similar spatial jobs pattern, I would definitely support heavy rail. But we have a massively dispersed jobs market that is [[IMO) best suited for flexible mobility.

Hmm, I wonder how you get a high concentration of jobs in a central area... You know like a central business district? Sounds like a transit system would help with the [[re-)development of that.

**wolverine** · December-13-11, 10:03 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

I disagree.

What is the "problem" that is solved by such a transportation investment?

Is it revitalizing Woodward for yuppies and hipsters? If so, light rail is a no-brainer.

Or is it mobility for Detroiters? If so, then buses are a no-brainer.

Most Detroiters work in the suburbs, and so buses provide the superior flexibility for regional jobs access. Light rail can't compete, especially in such a dispersed region. You would need 20 rail lines to provide halfway decent access to job centers.

Light rail can create demand out of useless land. You create accessibility to higher density nodes with rapid transit. You shouldn't argue that transit is only about mobility, otherwise you'd have a bus stop on every block.

Please clarify what you want. Access to jobs in suburbs only, or supplemental systems of light rail to create a larger job center of professionals downtown and along major corridors. You can have both you know...

I will say BRT can work, especially in cross-corridor type of connections, though I doubt it will be a catalyst for larger investment and growth along main corridors. You're right, it solves the mobility problem though, but you certainly don't get much in return.

**Bham1982** · December-13-11, 10:04 PM

Originally Posted by 313WX

Isn't this what SMART was supposed to be for? Serious question...

And if SMART is "failing", what makes anyone think this will work, especially with the same dynamics at play [[assuming it even comes to fruition).

I think the primary reasons Smart is "failing" are because it doesn't have a dedicated revenue source, and because communities have the option of opting-out.

It appears that these issues would be problematic for any transit mode. They're structural issues, not really modal choice issues.

**ProudMidwesterner** · December-13-11, 10:05 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

If Detroit had a similar spatial jobs pattern, I would definitely support heavy rail. But we have a massively dispersed jobs market that is [[IMO) best suited for flexible mobility.

That is a very good point, and one I didn't consider. Light rail works well in a city with concentrated pockets of jobs, like Minneapolis [[downtown, Bloomington, the line to St. Paul) or such a corridor [[St. Louis: downtown-Clayton-the airport). But sadly, the suburbanization of Detroit doesn't fit those patterns...

**iheartthed** · December-13-11, 10:05 PM

This sucks for all of those speculators buying up those abandoned buildings along the formerly proposed light rail line....

**313WX** · December-13-11, 10:06 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

I think the primary reasons Smart is "failing" are because it doesn't have a dedicated revenue source, and because communities have the option of opting-out.

It appears that these issues would be problematic for any transit mode. They're structural issues, not really modal choice issues.

Exactly, and that's my point.

So we're basically just creating another SMART system on steriods, but with the same structural problems in place. How far do you think that'll get in terms of success?

**President Sekou** · December-13-11, 10:07 PM

Really infuriating considering the City Council refused to cut nearly $4 million of their own budget yearly, yet this project is ending because the city cant afford $10mil a year to maintain it. Bring on the Receiver please

**stasu1213** · December-13-11, 10:11 PM

I had told you guys a year ago that the light rail was not going to happen. I had the feeling that the economy was going be the scapegoat for the demise of the idea of mass transit. The big three still influence some of the decisions made in this city. The rapid bus made be the only mass transit that we will get that the Big Three and other controlling entities will approve of

**Dexlin** · December-13-11, 10:13 PM

I've held out hope for this city for as long as I can remember, but to come this close only to have our so-called leaders bail is the last straw. I'm done with hope in Detroit. Good luck with your glorified buses, Bing and Snyder. You are sure as hell will need it. I mean, I can't even put into words how angry I am. This is exactly why people criticize government. They made backroom deals while stringing the public along into thinking they were shooting for rail.

Yeah, Snyder, you're talking about keeping people in Michigan, and yet again your actions do quite the opposite. Snake.

**j to the jeremy** · December-13-11, 10:15 PM

Originally Posted by Dexlin

I've held out hope for this city for as long as I can remember, but to come this close only to have our so-called leaders bail is the last straw. I'm done with hope in Detroit. Good luck with your glorified buses, Bing and Snyder. You are sure as hell will need it. I mean, I can't even put into words how angry I am. This is exactly why people criticize government. They made backroom deals while stringing the public along into thinking they were shooting for rail.

Yeah, Snyder, you're talking about keeping people in Michigan, and yet again your actions do quite the opposite. Snake.

Someone needs to force Snyder to come talk to us in person

**R8RBOB** · December-13-11, 10:18 PM

Let's accept the truth for what it is. 60 plus years of stripping the city of people, industries and hope in favor of the suburbs makes the idea of light-rail in Detroit a pipedream. Detroit is broke, most of the citizens are unemployed and 60% of those employed and living in the city are working outside the city. The suburbs will not entertain funded anything that could benefit Detroit so the city is shit outta luck.

**stinkytofu** · December-13-11, 10:22 PM

I haven't bashed Bing before, but doesn't this show really bad leadership?

He's been pushing hard for light rail for a few years now. It's shot down out of the blue by the feds due to Detroits inability to pay its share. Shouldn't Bing have known about Detroits inability to pay and not pushed so hard? Additionally, if Bing was competent and thought the numbers made sense for light rail, shouldn't he have come out tonight and been pissed off with the killing of the project instead of endorsing it?

**casscorridor** · December-13-11, 10:25 PM

I give up on Detroit. This shit is useless. Who the hell is going to move to a city like this? Who the hell is going to stay in a city like this?

"High-speed buses" --- that is a load of crap. If they wanted to improve the bus system, THEY WOULDN'T HAVE CUT IT INTO OBLIVION!!!!!

Can't say I'm proud of being from the #1 most dysfunctional region in the the United States.

**stinkytofu** · December-13-11, 10:27 PM

Originally Posted by casscorridor

I give up on Detroit. This shit is useless. Who the hell is going to move to a city like this? Who the hell is going to stay in a city like this?

"High-speed buses" --- that is a load of crap. If they wanted to improve the bus system, THEY WOULDN'T HAVE CUT IT INTO OBLIVION!!!!!

Can't say I'm proud of being from the #1 most dysfunctional region in the the United States.

Give up on the government, not the people. A city is defined by its people.

**DetroitPlanner** · December-13-11, 10:27 PM

Originally Posted by j to the jeremy

The SEMCOG line to A2 has been off the table, informally, for a while now.

You sure about that?
http://www.semcog.org/AADD.aspx

Are all those railcars figments?

**313WX** · December-13-11, 10:28 PM

Originally Posted by stinkytofu

Give up on the government, not the people. A city is defined by its people.

It's the people [[majority) who elect the government, FWIW.

**Dexlin** · December-13-11, 10:29 PM

BTW, if LaHood didn't think Detroit could pay for operations, why the hell did this clown keep showing his face in Detroit and literally pushing light rail up to this month? There was never a hint that this wasn't going to happen from their end of things. Here he's been clowning around this city for years, now, smiling in everyone's face and assuring everyone that shovels would be in the ground, next year.

These people are souless, no-good, phonies. Here they are granting us millions of dollars for preliminary studies, building boards to oversee the process...hell, just YESTERDAY, MLive had a story on the city council reviewing candidates to oversee the project through the DEGC. Snyder, Bing and LaHood knew all along that this wasn't going to happen. How evil do you have to be to string people along like this? This is a sham of the most massive proportions.

As for SEMCOG's commuter rail, who is to say know with as dishonest as regional leaders have been with Woodward Light Rail that that is going to happen, now? It was even more shakey [[i.e. even more delays) than the Woodward Light Rail.

**stinkytofu** · December-13-11, 10:29 PM

Originally Posted by 313WX

It's the people [[majority) who elect the government, FWIW.

Point taken.

**iheartthed** · December-13-11, 10:30 PM

They should've just let the private investors build it according to the original plan...

**stinkytofu** · December-13-11, 10:31 PM

Originally Posted by Dexlin

BTW, if LaHood didn't think Detroit could pay for operations, why the hell did this clown keep showing his face in Detroit and literally pushing light rail up to this month? There was never a hint that this wasn't going to happen from their end of things. Here he's been clowning around this city for years, now, smiling in everyone's face and assuring everyone that shovels would be in the ground, next year.

These people are souless, no-good, phonies.

I completely, 100% agree. People knew Detroit's budget was f'ed for decades...this is no surprise. How the hell does this come out of the blue?

This shows a horrible mess of leadership.

**iheartthed** · December-13-11, 10:31 PM

Originally Posted by Dexlin

BTW, if LaHood didn't think Detroit could pay for operations, why the hell did this clown keep showing his face in Detroit and literally pushing light rail up to this month? There was never a hint that this wasn't going to happen from their end of things. Here he's been clowning around this city for years, now, smiling in everyone's face and assuring everyone that shovels would be in the ground, next year.

These people are souless, no-good, phonies.

I'm sure the threat of bankruptcy played a part...

**Jason** · December-13-11, 10:32 PM

I don't know exactly but my impression is that this failed at the local/regional level, and that the other levels are just acknowledging that with the announcement.