What will it take for people to believe? Lansing Take Over of Detroit.

[corktownyuppie]

Mayor Dave Bing is maneuvering with only a few moves left on the board.

"It's got to happen this month," he said. "I won't be going anywhere at Christmas."

In chess, this would be called endgame. In Detroit, getting people to believe this is the endgame is Bing's challenge.
From The Detroit News: http://detnews.com/article/20111210/...#ixzz1g6qFsADo

So seriously...we've looked at the numbers. We've been hearing warning bells for years. Credit rating is junk status.

What it will it take for people to believe that isn't some stunt set up by white people in Lansing to take over Detroit? As I learn more about how deep the problem goes, I'm more sure than ever before that Lansing would love to avoid having anything to do with this. We are in serious trouble.

And the problem will be hard enough to solve when we're all in the boat rowing together. I don't think it can be done if people are just sitting around thinking that there's no hurry.

What concrete event would have to take place before the community really accepts that they may have to amputate an arm and a leg in order to save the rest of their body?

[lilpup]

start amputating

[night-timer]

Is Detroit at its lowest point ever, like really? Everything in the entire world is in a crappy state of flux right now, changing into something else [[hopefully better), but no-one knows what just yet. Doesn't answer your question but, hey, AFAIK no-one else is going anywhere at Xmas, either....

[Schoolcraft]

What it will it take for people to believe that isn't some stunt set up by white people in Lansing to take over Detroit?

When you say "people" do you mean the unions or the citizens of Detroit? The citizens of Detroit obviously have known that the city has been in trouble from the late ambulances, not being able to get anybody to pick up a phone at city hall, street lights being out, buses not coming on time etc.

[313WX]

Is Detroit at its lowest point ever, like really?

We've been asking since 1970, and yet the next year still somehow manages to surprise us.

Then again, I guess it's based on perspective too.

[animatedmartian]

I think Detroit's lowest point will be when it's population reaches zero and then it can be dedicated as an historic national park. [[Which could also be its highest point depending on your perspective.)

[corktownyuppie]

Is Detroit at its lowest point ever, like really? Everything in the entire world is in a crappy state of flux right now, changing into something else [[hopefully better), but no-one knows what just yet. Doesn't answer your question but, hey, AFAIK no-one else is going anywhere at Xmas, either....

This is interesting...I've never thought about it this way. I haven't been paying attention to the level of services out there. I've just been staring at numbers on a screen.

For reasons that having nothing to do with us specifically, the interest rates to take on debt have been rising because of an increase in perceived risk to loan money to cash-strapped municipalities. And so despite the fact that interest rates have been falling in general, the spread between AAA and BBB debt has been widening as investors are flocking to AAA debt for safety concerns.

The problem is that with the debt load we're carrying as well as our legacy costs, this is not a real favorable time to be borrowing money. Not sure on how Detroit will be seen by lenders, but BB rated debt in general is double the interest rate of AAA rated debt.

I think this might be like a GM situation in 2008, where debt was at BB, people thought it was gonna be tough times, but then the cost of borrowing doubled at the same time that revenues got cut in half because it was impossible to get financing on a car.

Within 6 months, the whole thing imploded, and there was just no way out from there.

[brizee]

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...=2011112090451

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...=2011111208014

To answer the title honestly, the powers that be have to stop playing games like the above.

Take the EFM law out of it. The OP has repeatedly stated his thoughts on it's application/intentions. I don't and won't agree, but that's not what this is about.

Look at the timeline of events here.

Governor was not honest about his intentions during his election campaign.
EMF is one of the issues he pushes through.
The citizens are about to make their opinion perfectly clear on this piece of legislation.
TPTB move to make this law, that didn't exist less than a year ago, unchangeable by the will of the people.

If this bill was about buying tea in China, given the way it played out, why the fuck SHOULD we trust "leadership" when they play underhanded games like this?

[lilpup]

The EFM law has nothing to do with not believing the City is in trouble. The problem is the City has been crying wolf for well over ten years without calamity occurring so now no one believes it when they do.

[De'troiter]

So seriously...we've looked at the numbers. We've been hearing warning bells for years. Credit rating is junk status.

What it will it take for people to believe that isn't some stunt set up by white people in Lansing to take over Detroit? As I learn more about how deep the problem goes, I'm more sure than ever before that Lansing would love to avoid having anything to do with this. We are in serious trouble.

And the problem will be hard enough to solve when we're all in the boat rowing together. I don't think it can be done if people are just sitting around thinking that there's no hurry.

What concrete event would have to take place before the community really accepts that they may have to amputate an arm and a leg in order to save the rest of their body?

Corktown, it is hard to amputate an arm or leg when you only have one in the first place. Although the numbers may be clear concerning the budget, others numbers are clear to, such as Michigan being on the brink of being a state where approximately 50% of its black citizens will have no political voice. I agree that numbers have no emotion, but people do. When black people see the trend of takeovers in this state, it is very easy for them to be convinced that something shady is going on. They are highly sensitive to racial issues because historically Blacks in this country have lived under extreme oppression supported by the government, longer than they have lived with the same relative freedoms as whites. I understand that we must move forward, but it is very hard for the people who received this adverse treatment to forget it. Getting Black people in America to fully trust the American Government, would be like trying to convince the Jews to fully trust a Nazi Government. They go along with the process, but there will always be that memory in the back of the minds, in spite of there being a Black person in office. I hope this gave you a little insight into the thought process behind the resistance. Blacks are following numbers too, just different numbers than the rest of the population.

[Bham1982]

What it will it take for people to believe that isn't some stunt set up by white people in Lansing to take over Detroit?

Outside of a few wacko conspiracy theorists, I don't think too many folks think this.

But, there are plenty of people who think there is a plan to "take back" Detroit from poorer black folks. Frankly, this isn't an unreasonable concern. I may even agree with this sentiment.

As can be seen on DYes and other forms of social media, the conversations around improving Detroit are contextualized around making the city core hospitable to suburbanites and other outside folks. There's little talk or concern about the existing 700,000 Detroiters and their needs.

Basically 90% of the revitalization talk involves 10% of the city. It's as if the rest of the city doesn't exist.

And Detroit, despite all it's faults, still has vast areas that still function at some minimal level. Most of Northwest Detroit [[a huge area, with a couple hundred thousand folks, many of them middle class or higher) isn't even mentioned in the revitalization talk, even though it's basically Detroit's economic, social and cultural bedrock.

[313WX]

Outside of a few wacko conspiracy theorists, I don't think too many folks think this.

But, there are plenty of people who think there is a plan to "take back" Detroit from poorer black folks. Frankly, this isn't an unreasonable concern. I may even agree with this sentiment.

As can be seen on DYes and other forms of social media, the conversations around improving Detroit are contextualized around making the city core hospitable to suburbanites and other outside folks. There's little talk or concern about the existing 700,000 Detroiters and their needs.

Basically 90% of the revitalization talk involves 10% of the city. It's as if the rest of the city doesn't exist.

And Detroit, despite all it's faults, still has vast areas that still function at some minimal level. Most of Northwest Detroit [[a huge area, with a couple hundred thousand folks, many of them middle class or higher) isn't even mentioned in the revitalization talk, even though it's basically Detroit's economic, social and cultural bedrock.

Yes, I'm in complete agreement with you and De'troiter.

[antongast]

Outside of a few wacko conspiracy theorists, I don't think too many folks think this.

But, there are plenty of people who think there is a plan to "take back" Detroit from poorer black folks. Frankly, this isn't an unreasonable concern. I may even agree with this sentiment.

As can be seen on DYes and other forms of social media, the conversations around improving Detroit are contextualized around making the city core hospitable to suburbanites and other outside folks. There's little talk or concern about the existing 700,000 Detroiters and their needs.

Basically 90% of the revitalization talk involves 10% of the city. It's as if the rest of the city doesn't exist.

And Detroit, despite all it's faults, still has vast areas that still function at some minimal level. Most of Northwest Detroit [[a huge area, with a couple hundred thousand folks, many of them middle class or higher) isn't even mentioned in the revitalization talk, even though it's basically Detroit's economic, social and cultural bedrock.

As Jane Jacobs put it:

City officials today prate about "bringing back the middle class," as if nobody were in the middle class until he had left the city and acquired a ranch house and a barbecue and thereby become precious. To be sure, cities are losing their middle class populations. However, cities need not "bring back" a middle class, and carefully protect it like an artificial growth. Cities grow the middle class. But to keep it as it grows, to keep it as a stabilizing force in the form of a self-diversified population, means considering the city's people valuable and worth retaining, right where they are, before they become middle class.

[lilpup]

I think a valid question would be "Who do Detroiters really believe is on their side?" Council? Bing? Kwame? People need to start accepting the fact that just because someone has the same skin color that doesn't mean they serve the same interests you do.

[Novine]

They should trust the people in Lansing, particularly Republicans? Or L. Brooks Patterson? Those are the people who have made it pretty clear that they couldn't care less if the city went down the tubes. Many of them have been pretty clear about their hostility towards Detroit for years, and in some cases decades. Whether that's been driven by race or ideology, if I was dealing with people with that kind of attitude, I wouldn't trust them when they suddenly discover an interest in the city's plight. Only Snyder might escape this suspicion because of his lack of past political involvement but since his policy decisions over the past year have had the short-term effect of exacerbating Detroit's financial distress, it's hard to put much trust in his motives either.

[De'troiter]

I think a valid question would be "Who do Detroiters really believe is on their side?" Council? Bing? Kwame? People need to start accepting the fact that just because someone has the same skin color that doesn't mean they serve the same interests you do.

None of the people that you listed are seen as Saviours, especially not Bing, and not even President Obama! Thats the problem. Most Detroiters lack trust in the government as a whole, on every level. That is why there are so many churches in Detroit. The only justice that many Detroiters believe in is the justice of GOD. Detroiters know all about corruption and the ill effects of it, coming from both white and blacks. Only a fool would believe that they enjoy a substandard quality of life. Also Blacks do not support everything Black, this is why many Black businesses in the City fail, while Chaldean, Arabic, Chinese, and Korean businesses flourish. That is the plight of the Black community. The majority of the Black dollar, has 0 rotation in the Black community before it leaves, while other communities have 4-6 rotations within that same community before it leaves.

[corktownyuppie]

Hm. Interesting.

Brizee states

Take the EFM law out of it. The OP has repeatedly stated his thoughts on it's application/intentions. I don't and won't agree, but that's not what this is about.

I can agree to disagree about the EFM law. And for the purpose of the discussion, let's presume that there is no EFM law. Assume that it was reversed in the courts or nullified by referendum, etc.

So we have no EFM. But we still have a financial emergency.

So why is the emotional reaction to the EM/EFM 10x more than the emotional reaction to the financial emergency? Do we not see that if we instead focused on the financial emergency that we may even be able to prevent an EM/EFM?

When black people see the trend of takeovers in this state, it is very easy for them to be convinced that something shady is going on. They are highly sensitive to racial issues because historically Blacks in this country have lived under extreme oppression supported by the government, longer than they have lived with the same relative freedoms as whites. I understand that we must move forward, but it is very hard for the people who received this adverse treatment to forget it. Getting Black people in America to fully trust the American Government, would be like trying to convince the Jews to fully trust a Nazi Government. They go along with the process, but there will always be that memory in the back of the minds, in spite of there being a Black person in office. I hope this gave you a little insight into the thought process behind the resistance.

Thank you, and it does. I have a great deal of empathy for this. Detroit in my experience has always been a Black majority city. I experienced racism and institutional exclusion, too, albeit to a much lesser degree than Black friends of mine. And I know that those wounds still hurt me at times, despite the fact that -- for all practical purposes -- I now am the institution and not the one being excluded from it.

I'm not asking anyone to put that aside or forget the institutional wrongs that have taken place or even to ignore the ones that are taking place now.

There's a lot of talk about the trend of state takeovers in the state being aimed at cities that are majority Black. But DC and Atlanta are majority Black cities, and they're not facing takeover. Hamtramck is 60% White and has been mired in fiscal emergency.

I'm not asking skeptics to trust their leaders. I'm asking them to just look at the numbers and trust the financial statements. And if they don't know how to read those statements, then they should find someone who's well-versed at understanding them to explain.

Blacks are following numbers too, just different numbers than the rest of the population.

The tragedy is that it doesn't have to be either/or. The fact that poverty disproportionately affects Blacks is one that I wish more people understood. Or that far too many atrocities have been committed in the name of government to count.

But I also wish that those at the middle and the bottom of the income scale could learn to look at problems from a perspective of "how does this affect the big picture?" or "If I was responsible for all these 27 different competing interests, how would I prioritize them?"

When the chorus coming from the masses is, "This is all BS and I'm not going to stand up for it anymore."...how does that get us any closer to solving any of the problems?

[corktownyuppie]

As can be seen on DYes and other forms of social media, the conversations around improving Detroit are contextualized around making the city core hospitable to suburbanites and other outside folks. There's little talk or concern about the existing 700,000 Detroiters and their needs.

That is true. But the brutal reality is that those 700,000 Detroiters need those suburbanites more than the suburbanites need the Detroiters. So until that imbalance changes, I think it can and should stay this way. Those suburbanites -- many of whom are also former Detroiters...former being within the last 5-15 years, btw, not 40-50 years -- are responsible for a third of the income tax coming into the city, not to mention a much needed influx of capital injection.

And Detroit, despite all it's faults, still has vast areas that still function at some minimal level. Most of Northwest Detroit [[a huge area, with a couple hundred thousand folks, many of them middle class or higher) isn't even mentioned in the revitalization talk, even though it's basically Detroit's economic, social and cultural bedrock.

East English Village, Morningside, Copper Canyon were the same way for me growing up. I think they would get more airplay in the revitalization talk if the community would just:

- Pick a small number of financially viable neighborhoods
- Focused all their resources on supporting those neighborhoods and growing them

The city needs capital and some trickle-down economics. A financially viable neighborhood, whether it be Rosedale Park or Indian Village, does not make news. But I guarantee that if Detroit picked those two neighborhoods as Tier 1 targets and shut everything else down, the amount of investment, capital, and attention on those or other targeted neighborhoods would skyrocket.

[lilpup]

None of the people that you listed are seen as Saviours, especially not Bing, and not even President Obama! Thats the problem. Most Detroiters lack trust in the government as a whole, on every level. That is why there are so many churches in Detroit. The only justice that many Detroiters believe in is the justice of GOD. Detroiters know all about corruption and the ill effects of it, coming from both white and blacks. Only a fool would believe that they enjoy a substandard quality of life. Also Blacks do not support everything Black, this is why many Black businesses in the City fail, while Chaldean, Arabic, Chinese, and Korean businesses flourish. That is the plight of the Black community. The majority of the Black dollar, has 0 rotation in the Black community before it leaves, while other communities have 4-6 rotations within that same community before it leaves.

Exactly. So essentially it's irrelevant who steps in and finally cleans house.

[antongast]

Exactly. So essentially it's irrelevant who steps in and finally cleans house.

Not necessarily, it just means that everyone currently in the picture has done an extremely poor job of reaching out to Detroiters and gaining their trust. It's an uphill battle now that so many generations of leaders have screwed Detroit over so badly, but I don't think it's impossible, and I think it'll be hard to make any house-cleaning effort stick without any buy-in from people who actually live here.

[mwilbert]

I think it is important to keep two things separate, although they are certainly related. One is the functioning of the city, and one is the functioning of the city government.

An EFM can [[maybe) improve the functioning of the government, and I suspect that if it can be done, it can be done without any particular buy-in by the population. On the other hand, I don't think the city as a whole can be substantially improved if a large chunk of the people affected think the whole reform enterprise is being driven by people who don't have their best interests at heart.

The best case I can see is that the results of whatever is done are sufficiently positive that people eventually overcome their natural skepticism.

[erikd]

Not necessarily, it just means that everyone currently in the picture has done an extremely poor job of reaching out to Detroiters and gaining their trust. It's an uphill battle now that so many generations of leaders have screwed Detroit over so badly, but I don't think it's impossible, and I think it'll be hard to make any house-cleaning effort stick without any buy-in from people who actually live here.

The financial crisis and the resolution to the crisis has nothing to do with government outreach, trust, public buy-in, leaders screwing the public, or anything like that.

This is simple economics. The cost of health care is skyrocketing in this country. Detroit has tens of thousands of current and retired employees. The cost of paying for their health care is a significant portion of the city budget. The cost of health care premiums has been jumping 35% PER YEAR over the last few years. There is no possible way to pay the increasing premiums every year with stagnant or decreasing revenue. Period.

It doesn't matter how people feel about it, or if the public will "buy-in" to the reality of the situation. The simple fact is that the city can not meet it's financial obligations, and something has to give. 2+2 will never equal 100.

The financial reckoning will come very soon. The only question is if it will be a consent agreement, an EFM, or a chapter 9 bankruptcy.

The opinion or buy-in of Detroiters will be irrelevant when the city becomes insolvent. Contrary to the popular belief of many people, the city is not a sovereign entity. Local municipalities are creatures of the state, and the state has absolute authority to grant, rescind, or modify any and all powers that they have previously granted to local municipalities.

Also contrary to popular belief, a state takeover is not not some kind of dictatorial takeover by a foreign power, nor is it anti-democratic. The state government, and the governor, have established authority that supersedes the authority of locally eleced officials. Every voter in the state of Michigan has the opportunity to vote for a state rep, state senator, and governor. If the state house, senate, and governor all agree that the state must intervene in the finances of a local municipality, it is democratically valid.

If you don't think that the state should intervene in local affairs, then you should vote for state officials who will grant sovereignty to local municipalities.

[Zacha341]

Agreed. We take our 'butt kicking' better when it comes from the dems. Our default 'friends' as it were.

Snyder and the repubs will always be perceived the grim reaper 'deluxe' now that the bill has come due [[chickens roosting) withstanding the other policies and the corruption that have led us here.

LOL! Hah! Engler will be invoked often as part of the what lead us here, that's arguable - I get that. But there was an eight year span between that to Snyder.

L Brooks Patterson? Yeah good ole Brooksy and our own play ground of goodies ala Ficano and his friends, ostensibly our friends in the party... after all he ain't no repub so it can't be that bad...

They should trust the people in Lansing, particularly Republicans? Or L. Brooks Patterson? Those are the people who have made it pretty clear that they couldn't care less if the city went down the tubes. Many of them have been pretty clear about their hostility towards Detroit for years, and in some cases decades. Whether that's been driven by race or ideology, if I was dealing with people with that kind of attitude, I wouldn't trust them when they suddenly discover an interest in the city's plight. Only Snyder might escape this suspicion because of his lack of past political involvement but since his policy decisions over the past year have had the short-term effect of exacerbating Detroit's financial distress, it's hard to put much trust in his motives either.

[Zacha341]

More of us have figured that out than it appears. Corruption gets hard to ignore when it is kicking you in the teeth... [[where's that ambulance we called half an hour ago!?)

'Self-interest' democratically inspired locally or otherwise and elsewhere was the supreme politic impacting Detroit for a long time. It was mostly smooth over by those who where getting some fringe benefits [[urban and suburban).

That has finally gotten old to celebrate peripherally - justifiably, without tangible cash flow, corrupt or otherwise. How long could it really go on?

I think a valid question would be "Who do Detroiters really believe is on their side?" Council? Bing? Kwame? People need to start accepting the fact that just because someone has the same skin color that doesn't mean they serve the same interests you do.

[R8RBOB]

That is true. But the brutal reality is that those 700,000 Detroiters need those suburbanites more than the suburbanites need the Detroiters.

This is the money quote. That Detroiters like myself need suburbanites more than they need me. You know that it should be we all need each other for survival but it is funny how things became so one-sided. I remember growing up in this region and had to watch and read how suburban leaders would rejoiced with glee how safe and clean their cities are and how bad Detroit has become. A prime example of this was two years ago when the Crypt Keeper in Warren was trying to get GM to move their world headquarters to the Tech Center. He used no taxes and "a safe city" to entice the move.

You know if Detroit's suburbs didn't spend so many years picking at the meat maybe Detroit wouldn't be a bag of bones.