Unease at Wayne State University - Are policies freezing out minorities?

[brizee]

http://metrotimes.com/columns/unease...sity-1.1241588

Right on the heels of the Focus Hope debacle last week. This city/state/country is a Goddamn mess.

A few people I spoke with claimed that grades from DPS students are not considered equal to those of students from schools in places such as West Bloomfield or Grosse Pointe. For instance, a 3.2 DPS grade point average would be scored as something more like a 2.4 GPA from those other places.

Awesome.

[noise]

It's difficult to respond to the DPS problem for WSU, I'm sure. They're not taking it over, students are simply not prepared, retention rates are abysmal, funding has taken a serious hit, and you're 1 of the 3 research institutions in the state. What's the solution?

That's a sincere question, by the way. I'm not interested in defending anyone, but how can you move forward?

[noise]

The HuffPo story sounds a little less nefarious.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/1...n_1126237.html

[corktownyuppie]

A few people I spoke with claimed that grades from DPS students are not considered equal to those of students from schools in places such as West Bloomfield or Grosse Pointe. For instance, a 3.2 DPS grade point average would be scored as something more like a 2.4 GPA from those other places.

No offense, but I don't see this as racial bias at all. A 3.2 DPS grade point average probably is equivalent to a 2.4 GPA from other places. There was an article naming Renaissance as the best high school in DPS with 10% of their graduates deemed prepared for college. Cass Tech was under 5%.

I'm not saying that Lahser or Grosse Pointe South are at 95%...but when the best schools in your system have a 10% less score for college preparedness, then a 3.0 GPA probably doesn't mean the same thing there as it does at other districts.

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in..._finds_th.html

A quick perusal of the database that the Detroit Free Press provides

shows some heartbreaking figures.

In Detroit, the numbers were downright abysmal. Only Renaissance High, the district's top high school, broke even that 10 percent threshold. Of course, Renaissance's graduation rate in 2010 was an impressive 95.5 percent. At Cass Tech, which also graduated 95.5 percent of its students last year, only 4.4 percent of this year's expected grads are prepared for the next level academically.

Yes, there is a racial correlation, but it's not caused by race. I'm sure if Reinassance was pumping out 95% college-ready grads and Livonia Stevenson was pumping out 10% college ready grads, the numbers would be flipped.

Of course, the root cause of this is about educational opportunity in K-12, and that's worthy of discussion. But I don't think it's fair to point fingers at college admissions departments, who are charged with the duty of screening out applicants that aren't academically prepared for the rigors of college academics.

[Det_ard]

http://metrotimes.com/columns/unease...sity-1.1241588

A few people I spoke with claimed that grades from DPS students are not considered equal to those of students from schools in places such as West Bloomfield or Grosse Pointe. For instance, a 3.2 DPS grade point average would be scored as something more like a 2.4 GPA from those other places.

Right on the heels of the Focus Hope debacle last week. This city/state/country is a Goddamn mess.



Awesome.

Assuming the 3.2 DPS GPA isn't from CT or Renaissance, it probably is equal to a 2.4 [[or worse) at a competitive high school. Selective Universities have been adjusting GPAs for HS quality for decades. It's the only way to accurately compare students from different HS.

I don't think WSU can be both a high-quality Tier 1 research university and pursue the "urban mission" if that's defined as offering admission to students with GPAs and ACTs well below comparable research institutions. There's too much remedial education occuring at WSU already. Many WSU students/grads have commented on the lack of quality of some of their fellow students. It's a major reason why WSU isn't a highly regarded undergraduate institution.

Now, if WSU wants to offer an opportunity for a college education to students with less competitive qualifications, that's their choice, but it will be at the expense of the education of the more qualified students, and the institution's overall reputation, with all that entails regarding their ability to recruit the best professors and students.

[Scottathew]

I don't think the policy is racist, but I do wonder about its fairness. But the WSU concerns are very legitimate, I've studied MEAP scores. I live in the Center Line district right now, and I wouldn't send my child there. However, even Center Line doubles DPS MEAP rates in many categories.

DPS as a whole, is an abject failure. Although I'm sure there are some success stories, those are the exception.

What does concern me though is that some great DPS students might get turned away, when really they belong in those WSU classrooms.

The cure for poverty is education, denying opportunities to those that need them the most will only hurt things.

[corktownyuppie]

Now, if WSU wants to offer an opportunity for a college education to students with less competitive qualifications, that's their choice, but it will be at the expense of the education of the more qualified students, and the institution's overall reputation, with all that entails regarding their ability to recruit the best professors and students.

I understand the desire to want to pursue an urban mission and offer opportunities to people who don't have many. That's part of the reason why I moved back into the city rather than getting a cushy house in Birmingham.

The problem is that almost all the institutions in Detroit are about pursuing missions to help the disadvantaged. No city can survive without having highly competitive, top tier, "best of the "best, dare I even say..."elitist", institutions. Detroit [[the city) is sorely lacking in places that attract the top talent in the region.

Let's not kid ourselves. The problems facing the city are some of the most complex urban planning, poltical, and financial problems any city in the United States has seen. Even some of the brightest minds in the country comment on how staggering the issues are.

So how can you expect a community to solve it when 90% of its people are graduated from high school unprepared for higher education?

[evergreen]

The problems of Detroit won't be solved by WSU effectively implementing open admissions.. One thing no one's mentioned here is the fairness of young adults having to borrow money to pay for remedial courses - courses that cover material they should have learned for free in public schools. Maybe DPS needs a 13th grade.

The root of the problem is DPS. The whole country is waiting for a reasonably priced,effective method to educate inner city students. If the solution is too expensive, it cannot feasibly be implemented for large numbers of pupils. A Nobel Peace prize awaits the person who solves that problem.

[Wesley Mouch]

...
The root of the problem is DPS.
...

The root of the problem is DPS.

Tis stupidity to take WSU to task for giving equal access to all people based on their true educational attainment.

The root of the problem is DPS.

[Zacha341]

Students not prepared for the rigors and standards of a university should consider community college education initially where class sizes are smaller and their is the opportunity to get more remedial help.

What's worse is when unprepared students attempt those 'accelerated' instant degree 'mills'. They have a very high failure rate, as students who require remedial work rarely do well in a 10 week or less program. They need the standard 15 - 16 week semester that you get a two or four year institution.

[Hypestyles]

WSU needs a much better adult-undergrad student schedule program/accommodations.. it's frustrating to have to deal with work + midday classes, with few options for evenings and weekends...

WSU should be operating charter schools, DPS tutoring programs if they are concerned about DPS graduation rates/equivalency levels. Prioritizing research over undergraduate retention is a longtime gripe of mine with colleges in general..

recruiting national/international students while ignoring the local student pool is disingenuous, at best.. And this is a public university, I'm not trying to hear all this stuff about elitist entitlement protocols..

[Zacha341]

The WSU outreach perspective and accomadations seem different to me undergrad vs. grad studies rather you are there for certificate work or a masters, etc. I got my undergrad degree elsewhere but have found initial post under-grad class at WSU to more stream-lined if not more accommodating to the post undergrad or grad students.

It's a different experience for students who may come from another state, or educational institution or made it thru WSU undergrad - receive different incentives it seems. It more matter of fact, and guess that is not unusual.

[brizee]

It's just extremely frustrating watching what's going on in this state.

I just saw a lot of my friends and colleagues dreams just go up in smoke in the last two weeks.


My brother never did exceptional in school. He graduated from Cass but he caught hell at school K-12. He graduates from WSU on the 10th this Saturday. The first man on our mom or dad's side to earn a bachelors degree. This nonsense is put in place in 2006 and he doesn't even get his foot in the door.

[alsodave]

Students not prepared for the rigors and standards of a university should consider community college education initially where class sizes are smaller and their is the opportunity to get more remedial help.

And a big problem is that most of those students aren't prepared for community college, either. And it's not limited to DPS students. Too many students are leaving high school and heading to community college without basic study skills. The CCs do have remedial/college prep seminars and courses and free tutoring available, but some students don't even test into the beginning level prep classes.

What's worse is when unprepared students attempt those 'accelerated' instant degree 'mills'. They have a very high failure rate, as students who require remedial work rarely do well in a 10 week or less program. They need the standard 15 - 16 week semester that you get a two or four year institution.

I cringe whenever I see those degree mill commercials. Those "schools" exist for one reason--to steal a student's state and federal financial aid money. When those students decide to move on to a real college, they discover that their "courses" don't transfer, and that their financial aid allotment has already been used up.

[nativegirl]

Alsodave,

You are correct about the Community College aspect. I graduated from HS many moons ago and I recently completed my Grad degree. I had to take a stats and calc class as a pre-req and ended up doing so at the WCCC Downtown campus. I felt like I was back in Jr. High. With the exception of a half a dozen of students in my stats class, no one knew that a) you had to bring your book to class and actually read the problems b) the daily study [[homework) was essential to the pop quiz and test c) other students and even the instructor are not responsible for ensuring that other students did their homework or got to class and lastly d) Some students were satisfied with Ds! I was just out-done. I graduated from a DPS high school but during a different era where personal accountantibility was stressed and getting grades wasn't considered being or acting "white."

[Bham1982]

I don't understand the surprise at the policy. Every school does this, at every level of education.

For example, I attended a supposedly elite public high school in Oakland County where most folks with a B average and decent SATs got into Michigan. At most high schools, a 3.2 won't get you into Michigan, but it was pretty routine among the folks I knew.

Is this unfair? Maybe, but it's logical from the school's perspective. They know that grading is highly variable, and they know the general cutoffs for success for folks arriving from a given school.

Is a 3.2 at Bloomfield Hills Andover the "same" as a 3.5 at another school, and a 3.7 somewhere else? Schools do make such determinations.

I can tell you that, anecdotally, most of the folks I knew who attended UofM were way, way ahead of their peers from other schools, and ended up with better GPAs than in high school. Same thing for my MSU friends.

As to racial bias, most of these "elite" suburban high schools are far more diverse than DPS schools. Many now have large African American populations.

[Zacha341]

Yep, NG and AD you've made excellent, compelling points, some speaking to the self-freezing out scene on campus! The attitude I've noted in the community college setting with some students is fun and games [[continuing from HS where basic study skills where not acquired) and money hustles in a percentage of students.

Teaching courses at a suburban community college I've noted some students simply not interested in even coming to class or a few that drop after two weeks or so after they get their loan moneys over and above their tuition costs [[reimbursement checks).

Some perceive this as free money and quit. I remind students day one that loans must be paid back and they if they unofficially drop [[disappear) they will fail the course. I remind them that their 'financial aid allotments' are finite and to seize the time to work hard while they have financial assistance.

[noise]

WSU needs a much better adult-undergrad student schedule program/accommodations.. it's frustrating to have to deal with work + midday classes, with few options for evenings and weekends...

WSU should be operating charter schools, DPS tutoring programs if they are concerned about DPS graduation rates/equivalency levels. Prioritizing research over undergraduate retention is a longtime gripe of mine with colleges in general..

recruiting national/international students while ignoring the local student pool is disingenuous, at best.. And this is a public university, I'm not trying to hear all this stuff about elitist entitlement protocols..

I disagree with this. WSU is not a community college and should not compete with a community college. WSU is a RU/VH [[formerly Research I) institution. I don't think jeopardizing that status is wise. In my opinion, it would be better for Detroit to have something more like University of Michigan. That's why Wayne County Community College exists. Asking WSU to do more with less funding isn't fair, especially when it's struggling to build a stronger reputation.

I'm a strong advocate of community colleges. Many students who end up at a large research university [[especially WSU) would be better suited to start at a community college. I went straight to MSU when I was 18, but a large part of me wishes I'd have started at a CC.

Ultimately, I feel that you either want a premier research institution or a poorly-regarded, open-door diploma mill. You can't have both. WSU is trying, seemingly unsuccessfully, to straddle these extremes.

[Zacha341]

Agreed. The university cannot be both. And as I touched on earlier, WSU has a post under-grad and grad school aspect to maintain standards for and there are less problems at that level, IMO.

WSU is not perfect, but I'm taking post under grad classes their and have several colleagues and friends who've earned their Masters degrees from WSU. The problem of is mainly at the beginning of process. Too many students presenting absent of core skills or the commitment to study and work hard.

Students not prepared for the university setting should seek other alternatives to prepare.

Ultimately, I feel that you either want a premier research institution or a poorly-regarded, open-door diploma mill. You can't have both. WSU is trying, seemingly unsuccessfully, to straddle these extremes.

[MrNittany]

I disagree with this. WSU is not a community college and should not compete with a community college. WSU is a RU/VH [[formerly Research I) institution. I don't think jeopardizing that status is wise. In my opinion, it would be better for Detroit to have something more like University of Michigan. That's why Wayne County Community College exists. Asking WSU to do more with less funding isn't fair, especially when it's struggling to build a stronger reputation.

I'm a strong advocate of community colleges. Many students who end up at a large research university [[especially WSU) would be better suited to start at a community college. I went straight to MSU when I was 18, but a large part of me wishes I'd have started at a CC.

Ultimately, I feel that you either want a premier research institution or a poorly-regarded, open-door diploma mill. You can't have both. WSU is trying, seemingly unsuccessfully, to straddle these extremes.

This is exactly it. It is IMPOSSIBLE for Wayne State to simultaneously:

[[1) offer an essentially open-admissions policy for undergrads, and
[[2) CREDIBLY market itself as a "top-tier [[RU/VH)research instuition" [[which it is).

If you have to sacrifice one of the two, it MUST be the former. Sorry if that hurts others' feelings, but that's what I want as a Wayne State alum myself.

[ndavies]

Wasn't Wayne State hammered by the media last year for it's high drop out rate? One way you fix a high drop out rate is to increase your incoming standards and limit the number of students that are likely to drop out.

[corktownyuppie]

It's just extremely frustrating watching what's going on in this state.

I just saw a lot of my friends and colleagues dreams just go up in smoke in the last two weeks.


My brother never did exceptional in school. He graduated from Cass but he caught hell at school K-12. He graduates from WSU on the 10th this Saturday. The first man on our mom or dad's side to earn a bachelors degree. This nonsense is put in place in 2006 and he doesn't even get his foot in the door.

Brizee, first of all, congratulations to your brother and your family. His accomplishment is a big deal and one that should be celebrated. I was the first to graduate from a university in the US. College is hard enough as it is...and it's even harder when you don't really have people close to you who can guide you from their experience.

Second, your frustration is not invalid. I think it's fair to say that we're all frustrated with the state of our state's economy. It affects us all differently, but I assure you that we are all feeling it.

Had this situation taken place in 2006, I think you are right that your brother wouldn't have gotten his foot in the door at WSU. But I don't think the story ends there. The role and mission of the community college is specifically designed for remedial work and preparatory curriculum. Frankly, I think that many who go straight to college could have had more doors open up if they spent 2 years getting better prepared.

A high-performing research university would attract some of the most talented people in the country to Detroit. This would translate into the very things that Michigan needs most right now: more job creation, more opportunities to advance, a healthier, more diverse economy, etc. You want to get your foot in the door? This is exactly what Detroit needs to get its foot in the door of a competitive economy.

The work of "Job Creating" is not easy. It's like training to become an olympic-level athlete. In order to have more job creators, the solution is not to ask the olympics to lower their standards. The solution is to design the institutions to better prepare us. Obviously, the K-12 program is where that needs to be done. But the community college is where the gap can be bridged. And for those who aren't ready for college at 18, this is not just "a solution"...it's a solution that will open more doors in the long run. Struggling through undergraduate years and taking 8 years to graduate does not really set the stage of a successful graduate school experience. Taking 2-3 years to get prepared in community college can allow you to finish undergraduate in 2-3 more years...but you'll be better prepared, learn more, and enjoy it more.

Also, it wouldn't hurt if the community would view school and academia as olympic training, instead of "selling out", "acting white", etc. That's for another thread, though.

[detroitjim]

Looks like implementation of another phase behind proposition 48 and 16.

Real competition . Damn?

[internet_pseudopod]

http://ideas.time.com/2011/12/01/the...ors_picks=true

It's hard to rack up dorm dollars and out of state tuition bucks if your school is filled with black kids who would rather save a buck and stay at home or in non-campus housing.

[rb336]

The root of the problem isn't DPS -- it is the parents. The worst performing schools in NYC turned around because they put a major focus on parental involvement. Parental involvement is the #1 factor in determining academic success, and everything else is far back