Detroit News Listing of Vacant Downtown Buildings

**401don** · December-05-11, 11:53 AM

http://www.detnews.com/article/20111...s-dot-downtown

This is a pretty good summary of vacant downtown structures. I tend to focus on the larger ones and forget how many 5-10 storey buildings are empty. I'm surprised with the success of Merchant's Row that more of the Woodward buildings have not been converted to apartments. Do you think tax credits are still available for these smaller structures?

**DetroitPlanner** · December-05-11, 12:02 PM

Merchant's Row is not exactly a success. Do people live there? Yes. However, there is still not much streetlife being generated by it. Most of the retail spaces are still empty. What I found striking is that 10,000 sq ft is not exactly a big building by downtown standards. The summary is not as bad as I would have assumed it would be.

It would be interesting to see this data stratified. What are the spaces between 10,000 and 25,000? 25k and 50k? Obviously, it would be much easier to fill smaller buildings than big ones. Which building can be done in a way that will help improve synergy/walkability?

**Danny** · December-05-11, 12:13 PM

I will wisper to all Detroit City Leaders 'Give the investors tax breaks, and they will come.'

**downtownguy** · December-05-11, 08:09 PM

I wonder why the Schwankovsky Temple of Music shows up on the map as "newly occupied?" I lived on the 2nd floor of the building in 1989 before lofts were legal in the city. At that time, the ground floor had gone from being a House of Fabrics to a Rent-a-Center. Since then, I think people have lived continuously on the upper floors and the ground level has seen many iterations of clubs. I don't think it's been occupied for at least the last 2 decades.

**DetroitPlanner** · December-05-11, 08:46 PM

DTG I noticed a few other buildings were in the same cetegory. On my way home today I went by the Moose. Lights were on around the building and on the upper floors as well.

**mikeg19** · December-05-11, 09:13 PM

This list was probably compiled awhile ago. There is work going on at some of these buildings that they say are vacant. Now what was the criteria for vacancy? Not sure. As we know many of these have financial backing or are currently being worked on. I would have to think, in the next 5 years or so, assuming the economy doesn't tank again, this list of 50 or so will be down to 25 or 30. If the influx of jobs keeps coming and the residential demand stays through the roof, there's no reason to think the entire Woodward corridor would be filled in in ten years. Same with Grand Circus and Capitol Park areas. Light rail will spur some development [[not as much as the city thinks probably), a new hockey arena, continued development from Gilbert and his firms, as well as these quoted heavy hitting investors looking to make major development moves in the next year or so will continue to redevelop Detroit. I guess we will have to see what plays out with the city and its financial woes in the next year or so, but all in all I'd think things are looking the best they have in some time.

**downtownguy** · December-05-11, 09:32 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

DTG I noticed a few other buildings were in the same cetegory. On my way home today I went by the Moose. Lights were on around the building and on the upper floors as well.

The map is full of errors. Doesn't anybody check this stuff? The Wurlitzer and the Cary Building are reversed. The Cary Building recenlty housed a medical marijuana "joint" and now it is home to a wellness center. Someone's been living on the 4th floor for some time. The Metropolitan Buidling is located on the site of the YMCA. 1200 Woodward comes up as newly occupied -- smack dab in the middle of the Hudson's block. It's all very arbitrary anyway. A 100,000 square foot building could be 50% vacant but not on the list, while a non-descript 10,000 foot building makes the list.

**illwill** · December-06-11, 11:45 AM

I don't know if any other people have shared some of my experiences but MOST of the empty buildings around the lower Woodward Cooridor are owned by wealthy real estate holders who live in the suburbs or down in Florida. Even if they have a for sale sign on the building.

I was a cash buyer in the late 90's and early 00's looking for a mixed use building to renovate and lease out. Apartments upsatairs and commericial businesses on the ground level. NOt ONE person would sell me to me. I was then told that these owners have no intention of selling because they use these empty buildings as tax write offs anf they need these empty buildings to offset their taxes.

This is why you see lots of buildings in Detroit. Greedy [[or smart) business people who could care less about the city but individuals who are hoding empty buildings to benefit themselves.

**animatedmartian** · December-06-11, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by illwill

I don't know if any other people have shared some of my experiences but MOST of the empty buildings around the lower Woodward Cooridor are owned by wealthy real estate holders who live in the suburbs or down in Florida. Even if they have a for sale sign on the building.

I was a cash buyer in the late 90's and early 00's looking for a mixed use building to renovate and lease out. Apartments upsatairs and commericial businesses on the ground level. NOt ONE person would sell me to me. I was then told that these owners have no intention of selling because they use these empty buildings as tax write offs anf they need these empty buildings to offset their taxes.

This is why you see lots of buildings in Detroit. Greedy [[or smart) business people who could care less about the city but individuals who are hoding empty buildings to benefit themselves.

I don't doubt that there are plenty of buildings in that situation *cough*moroun!*cough*, but surely at some point it'll be more profitable for owners to sell when the area market is getting hot.

I wouldn't be surprised if they tried to hold out for big names with above market offers. Of course, being Detroit, above market is still probably cheaper than most other major cities.

**cramerro** · December-06-11, 01:21 PM

I'm a bit dissapointed in the article. It seems to be taking a subjectively negative view of downtown's progress, hidden behind what looks like a very scientific map with reds and blues, greens, blacks, and greys comapring their last study. Besides missing random buildings from the 'model' of downtown, there are plenty of buildings that they actually number missing, buildings mis-labeled, and building mis-classified. This includes: Kales is red labeled Women's City Club, Metropolitan has a number but it's lot is green, the Raymond James building at Griswold and Woodward isn't on the list, Chin Tiki? Moose Lodge is totally off - its a square building, how hard is that?!, former AAA building looks like a skyscraper, UA is numbered but not red, and on and on.

I agree that "vacant" is a fluid term, but that just means they should write a sentence or two qualifying thier methods. In addition, they did nothing to point out where honest, legitimate renovation is going on [[the Broderick is the best example).

Sorry for the mini-rant, but this article is not productive in my opinion based on the half-assed job they did with thier 'inventory' and how they presented the information. I'm all for being realistic and having an honest discussion about successes, failures, trials, and tribulations, but at least put forth a little more effort before you piss all over the parade.

**animatedmartian** · December-06-11, 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by cramerro

Sorry for the mini-rant, but this article is not productive in my opinion based on the half-assed job they did with thier 'inventory' and how they presented the information.

That's sort of The Detroit News's stlye.

**stasu1213** · December-06-11, 05:48 PM

Does anyone has a list of stores that lined Merchants Row in the middle to late eighties shortly after Hudson's had closed it's doors? I remember Winkkeman's Guisinni Shoes, Lady Orva, Meyers Jewelry, Ottos, Flaming Embers, and a store that sold Levis, Lees and other jeans. United Shirts was still open until the early 90s I think.

**ordinary** · December-06-11, 08:38 PM

Originally Posted by illwill

NOt ONE person would sell me to me. I was then told that these owners have no intention of selling because they use these empty buildings as tax write offs anf they need these empty buildings to offset their taxes.

This is why you see lots of buildings in Detroit. Greedy [[or smart) business people who could care less about the city but individuals who are hoding empty buildings to benefit themselves.

I've always wondered about that. In a nutshell, that seems to be the reason for the emptiness in some areas. Is there an upside to these tax write offs? What is the purpose of these write offs?

**corktownyuppie** · December-07-11, 01:14 AM

Originally Posted by ordinary

I've always wondered about that. In a nutshell, that seems to be the reason for the emptiness in some areas. Is there an upside to these tax write offs? What is the purpose of these write offs?

That's not exactly how tax write-offs work. When you buy a $200,000 property, you get to deduct a portion against your income every year for 20-30 years. But that's a red herring and a logical fallacy. When given a choice between a $200,000 property that's vacant, and a $200,000 property that's filled with tenants, I'll take 2nd. Both of them will give you write-offs.

I purport that the reason why the Lofts at Merchant Row are empty is because they were built and developed at the peak of the market. Therefore, in order to make back their investment, they would have to charge rates that the market wouldn't possibly support. Or if they sold now, they'd be selling for significantly less than they originally purchased. And rather than rent the properties to lower-income retailers that would likely drag the market down, they're holding out for when Broderick Tower gets built and then adds 250+ more residents to that area as well as other developments adding population. I'm sure once you put another 1,000 people within one block of there you can much more easily rent to retailers.

**ordinary** · December-07-11, 09:52 AM

Thanks for the explanation. I can see why they would not want to sell but it just seems odd that they're doing alright whether there are tenants or not.

**corktownyuppie** · December-07-11, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by ordinary

Thanks for the explanation. I can see why they would not want to sell but it just seems odd that they're doing alright whether there are tenants or not.

Anytime. And I don't know if they are or aren't doing alright. That's a whole different question. Take, for example, the Book Cadillac. Ferchill got absolutely CREAMED went the market crashed. All of those condos that were supposed to close on sales couldn't. And then buyers couldn't get the financing. It took years of struggle, and the units are finally being rented out...but I can't imagine that they've been a real money maker for him yet. I think they're just renting out the units until the market rebounds and they can make original profit #s, just later than they expected.

As much as Detroit has done to screw themselves over the last 20 years, it's fair to say that the reason why real estate hasn't developed as quick as we would like has more to do with Wall Street than Woodward and Jefferson.

**downtownguy** · December-07-11, 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by stasu1213

Does anyone has a list of stores that lined Merchants Row in the middle to late eighties shortly after Hudson's had closed it's doors? I remember Winkkeman's Guisinni Shoes, Lady Orva, Meyers Jewelry, Ottos, Flaming Embers, and a store that sold Levis, Lees and other jeans. United Shirts was still open until the early 90s I think.

In the late 80s, from Grand Circus Park on the east side were Flaming Embers, Ottos' Church's Chicken, TallEez Shoes, TeleArts Theatre, Lee Beauty Supply, the United Way, some coney Island and Rent-A-Center. Further down, there was also a Marianne's. On the other side was B Siegel, McCrory's, some discount shoe place, and I'm blanking on the rest until you get to Walter's Tobacco Shop in the David Whitney Building.