Decline of Detroit, did it have to be this bad?

[Forwardlook]

Just wanted to ask you Detroiters if you have views on this. I understand that the diminishing tax base and problems created by it was a huge problem decades ago. But as I see it the major problem Detroit has is crime. Unless that is being taken care of with an iron fist the city will never turn around. That would probably be extremely expensive as well as difficult now even if political will would be present. But if a zero tolerance on crime would have been installed in the 70:s [[or even earlier) how would Detroit look now? Would it have made a difference if Johannes Spreen would have stayed on as Police Commissioner and additional officers would have been hired back in the day? I'd be very curious to hear about your thoughts.

[lilpup]

Of course we have views on this but tell us first - what are crime and policing like in Finland?

[313WX]

Of course we have views on this but tell us first - what are crime and policing like in Finland?

And also, what are gun and drug laws like?

[Wesley Mouch]

...But as I see it the major problem Detroit has is crime. ... But if a zero tolerance on crime would have been installed in the 70:s [[or even earlier) how would Detroit look now? Would it have made a difference if Johannes Spreen would have stayed on as Police Commissioner and additional officers would have been hired back in the day? I'd be very curious to hear about your thoughts.

Things are never so simple.

Detroit's problems were/are from so many causes.

Policing was certainly one of them, but never the biggest issue.

And I think it would have made a difference. But it would not have turned the tide. You could say this about dozens of other issues as well. So this is pointless.

That said, would someone refresh my memory on the massive police layoffs of the 70s or maybe early 80s, caused by a retirees lawsuit on CAY's watch. Someone here must know this inside out.

[MrJones]

The man asked a question. He deserves an answer. Here's mine;

If a bigger police presence and tougher enforcement of laws were undertaken back in the late sixties, Detroit may have been seen as a city of racist, jack-booted thugs, [[like Chicago) who were solely bent on keeping the lower classes under their thumbs. During times of increased police-vs-criminal activity, injustice is not uncommon. As a boy, I witnessed a group of officers rough up my friend's brother for speaking injudiciously. Big 4. S.T.R.E.S.S. After all, people deserve their chance at wielding power and control of government and the establishment, regardless of education, experience, or level of organizational aptitude. In Detroit, skin color is the most important determining factor.
Once power over the tenth largest city in the US was transferred to the new leaders, some began to run things the way they perceived the city was run before them - on "autopilot", and corrupt, so some took a "I'm getting mine while I can" approach. The new ruling class had no experience in city building, and a city not being built is a city in decline. Many wanted to improve city services, yet couldn't overcome the temptation just to wrest power from civil servants who held positions for years and performed admirably, transferring most of them to less-qualified candidates who they thought could do the job because of the way they looked. Councils and committees which are charged with providing protection and logistical services for the city's citizens, are reduced to bickering, uncontrolled mini-mobs, accomplishing little, embarrassing the city, and doing untold damage to much of the most important resources under their charge.
Leaders of this new controlling class undertook a policy which erased much of a thriving community, using laws of eminent domain to force them out of their homes and build a huge automobile plant in its place. There were other suitable areas the plant could have gone. Some called it a vendetta for building freeways though the city in the 1950s, which split and irrevocably changed those areas.
The long fight over issues like this have succeeded in alienating the clear majority of citizens of pre-1970 Detroit, who moved away from the city, taking their resources and skills with them.
If you are an "outsider", [[living 1 to 20 miles from the city limits) criticism is seen as a racist attack. We aren't even supposed to say these type of things or the city planners and Liberal Arts alumni will label you racist and shout you down until you throw your hands up in despair. Meanwhile, the downward spiral continues unabated until ultimately, Sally Strothers will come here to make an infomercial asking for money to feed the little street urchins, shivering in their corrugated steel hovels.
But hey, we tried.

[Dexlin]

There are two very big things I think made the decline largely unavoidable. First, Detroit proper lost something ridiculous number of jobs between the 50's and late 60's. Something like 150,000, and subsequently loss 140,000 residents from 1950 to 1960, alone, and another 100,000 in the next decade. You remove this many jobs [[opportunity for upward mobility) and that many people and the ball is already rolling down the hill.

The second major blow, and the one I still wonder could have been avoided, was the crack epidemic of the 80's and early 90's. Crime had already skyrocketed in the city prior to this filling in the vacuum where legitimate jobs used to be, but the crack epidemic was the final blow, and something the city never really recovered from. Whatever chance Detroit had to stem the decline was gone after crack got through with Detroit. It was the point of no return.

The 90's were pretty decent years for Detroit -- for instance, its poverty rate, which had been on the uptick for decades before hand, had dropped more than ANY large city in the nation when 2000 hit [[a whopping 26% decline -- but the damage had already been done. The 2000's, in contrast, were a total lost decade for the whatever middle class was left in the city and in America in general. You stack a national manufacturing decline and then a financial collapse and the worst economic recession since the depression in the latter half of the decade on top of an already struggling city, and whatever gains had been made over the 90's were wiped out and then some. The poverty rate went from 26.1% in 2000 to nearly 38% by 2010, even height than the 32% rate in 1990, which had up to that point been the highest recorded.

[Hermod]

Of course we have views on this but tell us first - what are crime and policing like in Finland?

Finland must be a third-world hellhole. Colonialism creates third-world hellholes and Finland was colonized [[first by the Swedes, then by the Russians) longer than any other country in the world [[almost a thousand years).

[313WX]

Detroit's final nail in the coffin was the lifting of the residency requirement. That's when the city lost what was left of any significant tax base. The biggest evidence of this is that Detroit's decline [[more or less) stagnated before Emperor Engler came along and screwed everything up between the mental health institutions and this.

Even the supposedly good neighborhoods that these city workers populated are now going down the drain since they're gone.

That said, it's all a sympton of poor planning from regional leaders. Certain people were so worried abotu getting as far away from poor/colored people that they didn't care what type of damage it would case, financially and aesthetically, basically short-sighted thinking.

[oladub]

In addition to the good points brought out by MrJones and Dexlin, something should be said about the lack of fathers.

"Detroit ranks No.1 in unmarried births among the nation’s 50 largest cities. Of the 16,729 babies born in Detroit in 1997, 13,574 were black, 1,679 were white and 817 were Hispanic. Seventy-one percent were born to unmarried mothers. This compared with a state average of 33 percent and a 50-city average of 43 percent."

"Studies also have concluded that children growing up without their biological father are more likely to abuse drugs and alcohol, commit suicide, engage in crime and be incarcerated."
http://www.dadi.org/dn_bleak.htm

[Scottathew]

Crime is an issue. However, I think the larger issue was racism, segregation, and limited opportunities for black people.

The playing field is much more level now, but the damage has been done.

[Zacha341]

Include Jen Granholm in the coffin nailing....

Detroit's final nail in the coffin was the lifting of the residency requirement. That's when the city lost what was left of any significant tax base. The biggest evidence of this is that Detroit's decline [[more or less) stagnated before Emperor Engler came along and screwed everything up....

[middetres]

To expand on 48091's statement...two things happened that together made Detroit's crime rate explode:

1) Even though Detroit was losing jobs and population from the 50s on, unemployed and uneducated blacks were still migrating from the South to Detroit in droves through the mid-70s. Coming for jobs that were no longer there.

2) The federal government's War on Poverty, while well-intentioned, disincentivized a lot of people from fighting to bring themselves out of poverty.

Detroit was filled with far too many unemployable and uneducated people with no history of work nor appreciation of education. And most importantly no established history in Detroit that ingrained any kind of civic pride.

Sprinkle in the overt racism, segregation and limited opportunities for black people, and it's no wonder Detroit is where it is.


The one thing I've never been able to understand is why the City of Detroit ever allowed code enforcement to fall by the wayside. It's been posited that enforcement was unfair to poor people, but strict enforcement could have kept the city in much better shape. Now it seems almost impossible to enforce any codes because they're not being enforced uniformly. Someone can always claim that he's being unfairly targeted.

[De'troiter]

To expand on 48091's statement...two things happened that together made Detroit's crime rate explode:

1) Even though Detroit was losing jobs and population from the 50s on, unemployed and uneducated blacks were still migrating from the South to Detroit in droves through the mid-70s. Coming for jobs that were no longer there.

2) The federal government's War on Poverty, while well-intentioned, disincentivized a lot of people from fighting to bring themselves out of poverty.

Detroit was filled with far too many unemployable and uneducated people with no history of work nor appreciation of education. And most importantly no established history in Detroit that ingrained any kind of civic pride.

Sprinkle in the overt racism, segregation and limited opportunities for black people, and it's no wonder Detroit is where it is.


The one thing I've never been able to understand is why the City of Detroit ever allowed code enforcement to fall by the wayside. It's been posited that enforcement was unfair to poor people, but strict enforcement could have kept the city in much better shape. Now it seems almost impossible to enforce any codes because they're not being enforced uniformly. Someone can always claim that he's being unfairly targeted.

I agree with most of your statement, but I don't agree that the people from the south had no work history. During that era in the South, if you didn't work you didn't eat. Not only did the men work, but the women and children did too. This is where the lack of education came into play. Families had to make a choice, either kids went to school and starved; or they helped the family pick cotton to eat. These were not lazy people looking for hand outs. I don't know if you have ever picked cotton, but that is harder than any factory job that Detroit had to offer, with far greater hours, but less pay. Also, yes people were still picking cotton as late as the 1970s.

[Wesley Mouch]

The man asked a question. He deserves an answer. Here's mine;
...
Once power over the tenth largest city in the US was transferred to the new leaders, some began to run things the way they perceived the city was run before them - on "autopilot", and corrupt, so some took a "I'm getting mine while I can" approach. The new ruling class had no experience in city building, and a city not being built is a city in decline. Many wanted to improve city services, yet couldn't overcome the temptation just to wrest power from civil servants who held positions for years and performed admirably, transferring most of them to less-qualified candidates who they thought could do the job because of the way they looked. Councils and committees which are charged with providing protection and logistical services for the city's citizens, are reduced to bickering, uncontrolled mini-mobs, accomplishing little, embarrassing the city, and doing untold damage to much of the most important resources under their charge.
Leaders of this new controlling class undertook a policy which erased much of a thriving community, using laws of eminent domain to force them out of their homes and build a huge automobile plant in its place. There were other suitable areas the plant could have gone. Some called it a vendetta for building freeways though the city in the 1950s, which split and irrevocably changed those areas.
The long fight over issues like this have succeeded in alienating the clear majority of citizens of pre-1970 Detroit, who moved away from the city, taking their resources and skills with them.
If you are an "outsider", [[living 1 to 20 miles from the city limits) criticism is seen as a racist attack. We aren't even supposed to say these type of things or the city planners and Liberal Arts alumni will label you racist and shout you down until you throw your hands up in despair. Meanwhile, the downward spiral continues unabated until ultimately, Sally Strothers will come here to make an infomercial asking for money to feed the little street urchins, shivering in their corrugated steel hovels.
But hey, we tried.

Fantastic post. These things are never said. And they are true.

My father worked for the city in administration, and saw the city go from a world-reknowned leader in civic management to a political machine. He didn't blame it on race, although many of his peers did. He blamed it on the 1974 city charter change from a commission structure to a strong-mayor form of government.

I liked Coleman in many ways. He gave African-American residents a police department less filled with racist thugs, a jobs factory in city hall, and a pride in Detroit. But he toss the baby out with the bathwater and went too far. He gave the reins of power to people chosen by race, not competence.

Am so glad to hear the argument made here for the collapse of good governance in Detroit. It was the wide failure of the city to hold things together than when combined with the simultaneous storm of 'rust belt' problems made Detroit the pride of the failure movement.

Will disagree slightly on the Poletown issue. While many in the administration probably enjoyed watching many white residents get relocated to Warren and Sterling Heights, that wasn't the goal. This is one thing Coleman A. Young had 100% right. He got Detroit a new auto plant in the city limits, that has now produced a couple of thousand jobs in the city now for decades, and now produces the Chevrolet Volt right in Detroit. Thank you CAY.

[Novine]

I like revisionist history as much as anyone else but the idea that corruption in city government started with CAY isn't much supported by the facts. Detroit city government has had its share of corruption up to and including the office of Mayor.

http://www.hourdetroit.com/Hour-Detr...ayoral-Messes/

[JBMcB]

During that era in the South, if you didn't work you didn't eat. Not only did the men work, but the women and children did too.

I agree 100% They had to move up north to learn that you could get paid to not work.

[middetres]

I agree 100% They had to move up north to learn that you could get paid to not work.

Thank you for clarifying what I was meaning to say. I was referring to their lack of work history in Detroit. Anti-poverty initiatives, racism, et al deflated much of the wind in the sails of the incredible work ethic brought with them.

[De'troiter]

Thank you for clarifying what I was meaning to say. I was referring to their lack of work history in Detroit. Anti-poverty initiatives, racism, et al deflated much of the wind in the sails of the incredible work ethic brought with them.

oh ok, I see

[daft]

That story from Hour Detroit, while interesting, mostly cites actions that turned out poorly -- not instances of corruption. Cobo's building of freeways and elimination of streetcars? If corruption was involved, the article doesnt mention it... Cavanagh's city income tax? Maybe it was a bad idea, but nobody is suggesting he pocketed the tax money on the side... STRESS? That sure turned out badly, but it doesn't illustrate mayoral corruption... Even Coleman Young's affair with Calvert was a personal matter, not a Kwame-esque coverup involving city money... And city services worsened under Archer? OK, but he wasn't corrupt.

So back to the original question: Did it have to be this bad?

Other U.S. cities have had the same problems -- crime, declining schools, movement to sprawling suburbs -- but with less impact. One city had to be hit the worst, and Detroit was it. But why?

Why is Chicago so much better off? Similar climate, so that's not it. A mass transit system? Not likely a key factor; Detroit's buses were reliable, efficient and much-used [[at least through the late '60s, when I rode them daily). More diverse business and industry? That certainly helps.

But I wonder if there was some arm-twisting or other effort in Chicago that didn't exist here to keep businesses from moving to the burbs. The more things have sprawled here, the more difficult it has become for poor people in the city to find work -- and the more economically segregated we have become.

Once upon a time, and not all that long ago, white and blacks, well-off and poor rode those city buses together and went shopping and to work downtown. The swells may have ended up driving to work in offices and to shop in the more upscale stores, and working-class people maybe rode the bus to service jobs and to do their xmas shopping in Hudson's basement. But people all interacted -- as they still can do in Chicago.

[rid0617]

Detroit has always had a racist history I think because of the number of immigrants. My mother was born in Detroit in 1933, I was born there in 1951. She said growing up the Polish hated the Jews who hated the Germans who hated the Italians. Her father would go 5 miles out of the way to buy something not from a Jewish store.

But even in all this hatred Detroit managed to grow and get along for the good of the city. Now I think everyone only thinks for themselves, not the good of the city. And, she said Detroit had a corrupt city government even back then.

[animatedmartian]

Yes it did have to be this bad.

http://detroit1701.org/PopEnumerated.html

America is 72% White and you aren't going to a fill a major city with only one minority.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...an_populations

Detroit's Black population is equal to similar amounts in the northern cities, but those cities are still majority White with total populations over 1 Million.

What's the excuse now for Detroit? You get what you want and people don't want a healthy integrated city and region. So what we have is a segregated and money draining city that is already past the point where it is dependent on the region for growth. Ain't that the cold hard truth, brotha?

[stromberg2]

Finland has the highest rated education system in the world. I'm sure Forward can confirm that, along with extremely low crime rates.

Stromberg2

[canuck]

Once upon a time, and not all that long ago, white and blacks, well-off and poor rode those city buses together and went shopping and to work downtown. The swells may have ended up driving to work in offices and to shop in the more upscale stores, and working-class people maybe rode the bus to service jobs and to do their xmas shopping in Hudson's basement. But people all interacted -- as they still can do in Chicago.

That to me is a strikingly scary thing to watch. I see it in pictures of congregating people where there is not the mixing that exists in other cities.

It is interesting that you note the interaction people had in years gone by due to a shared transit experience. Shared transit experience on a vast scale that would see suburban and urban folks of all types congregate at the major shopping venues in the city is gone. Detroit is a strange city to the tenth power.

[Danny]

The Decline of Detroit starts with:

City government corruption, segregation, xenophobia, mistreatment of black and mexicans, race riots of 1943, suburban development, slum clearence on inner city slums and self displacement of blacks of Black Bottom and Paradise Valley, riot of 1967, accleration of white flight, the election of Coleman Young [[ Detroit's first black mayor), gang violence and higher murder rates, black takeover in most Detroit neighborhoods, destruction of Poletown neighborhood, poor Detroit Public School system, crack epidemic, King Kwame's manoogian parties and his text sex.

[DetroitPlanner]

A deminishing tax base is not only the problem of the City of Detroit. Nearly all of its suburbs are also dealing with this issue. This is true in much of the State and in the Country.

One of the big issues is with banks and people who took advantage of easy loans then walked away from their problem once things started to snowball. If you don't have skin in the game its easier to just go bankrupt than it is to continue to hold onto your property.

With the City, this created the final push for the suburbs for those who could go. Why live in Detroit, and deal with increasing crime, high taxes, a shrinking police and fire department when they could live in Livonia for the same cost or less? People who could, voted with thier feet.