Groups gather to fight City of Detroit EFM

[Buy American]

http://www.freep.com/article/2011120...cy-manager-law Here we go again, throwing out the race card when backed against a wall. I don't wish to see an EFM in Detroit but this article is too stupid to print.

[313WX]

The groups have good points, and they would definitely have a leg to stand on if Detroiters were managing Detroit as it should have been from the get go. That means without the wasted crap at the top [[why do administrators have to earn so much, why are there so many redundant administrators, why do they have so many useless things such as security and automobiles paid for by the city while the police and fire folks can't even service the citizens on time, etc.) and the rampant cronyism. It would also help if more than 10% of all Detroiters eligible to vote first of all educate themselves on the candidate and issues and secondly actually turn out at the polls if they truly want to control their own city.

No doubt however that it's not entirely their fault, because they were left behind to support a city for 2 million people [[you do the math).

As much as they want to cry racism and going back 50 years and plantation mentality, I honestly don't think when our civil rights leaders fought mercilessly for the voting rights of people of color, they expected a situation like Detroit.

[corktownyuppie]

"Plantation" rhetoric aside for a moment...

...there seems to be a great deal of energy being put in to "rise up" against oppression. But we aren't being oppressed by people, we are being oppressed by arithmetic.

If we get 200,000 signatures for a petition, I can't imagine what 200,000 people are going to do when they aren't getting paid.

[Danny]

Be prepare for the fight of you lives. Fight to save the city from the EFM Tyrant and OCP corporate takeover of the City of Detroit.

[Occurrence]

If these people don't want a EFM, why don't they learn how to run the city correctly so one isn't needed?

[Scottathew]

The Rev. Wendell Anthony, president of the Detroit Branch NAACP, said anyone who believes an emergency manager is inevitable without a fight is mistaken.
"If that were the case, we would still be on the plantation," Anthony said, asking why the state has appointed emergency managers for Ecorse, Pontiac, Benton Harbor and Flint -- cities largely populated by people of color -- but declined to review finances of two communities that are mostly white people: Allen Park and Jackson. The Detroit Public Schools district also is under an emergency manager.

This is why the NAACP has lost all relevance.

Are black people being targeted because of the color of their skin?

No. Absolutely not. To suggest so only distracts Detroit from its problems, rather than find solutions.

The victim mentality that has plagued the culture of black people and poor people is only perpetuated by the very groups that are supposed to be providing leadership for the advancement of their people.

Pointing the finger at the state, white people, and "the man" is simply laughable when everyone knows that this is Detroit's fault, went on un-addressed by Detroit, and recently the Bing administration wouldn't even let the financial report go public, an action which I feel is borderline criminal.

Detroit is bankrupt. Elected "leaders" have failed. Politicians are too afraid of the unions to lay off workers and cut wages and benefits. The Mayor is too blind to cut all the management waste.

It's time for Detroit's leaders to stop thinking about re-election and to start thinking about the city that is going to implode. However, even if they did, it's already too late.

[Zacha341]

'Arithmetic' indeed, that was ignored when 'the gravy' train was rolling full steam and corruption was ignored and justified. I recall the days when under the KK administration audits were not coming out in a timely manner [[which cost the city millions)... this and other 'activity' or inactivity leading us to these days.

We ARE going under an EFM; the protests and signatures are not going to stop that. Our fiscal condition is far worse than has been reported, which is why the take over is going to be very fast.

"Plantation" rhetoric aside for a moment...

...there seems to be a great deal of energy being put in to "rise up" against oppression. But we aren't being oppressed by people, we are being oppressed by arithmetic.

[Zacha341]

Due to justified corruption, systemic and long-standing we've 'forfeited' our time to control the city of Detroit.

The standard boiler-plate nationalist rhetoric is not going to stop the process, we've lost too much money for too long, for the 'benefit' of those who IRONICALLY claimed they had the cities best interest at heart.

....Pointing the finger at the state, white people, and "the man" is simply laughable when everyone knows that this is Detroit's fault, went on un-addressed by Detroit, and recently the Bing administration wouldn't even let the financial report go public, an action which I feel is borderline criminal.

[stasu1213]

I have mixed feelings about an EFM being appointed to Detroit. The negative is that the EFM might cancel contracts, consolidate police, fire, and EMS, and layoff city workers. The positive is that there would be no more "Pay to Play". Federal money would go directly to what it was sent for. There would not be a Mayor playing the "ignorant" role and blaming members of his administration for the misuse of funds. There would be more entrepreneurs locally, nationally, and internationally opening there businesses or companies inside Detroit withouth the red tape. Eniment Domain may take over so that Ilitch or anyone else won't be able to sit on land and abandoned buildings that lined Woodward for years stalling the progress that the city want to make.

[Hermod]

"Plantation" rhetoric aside for a moment...

...there seems to be a great deal of energy being put in to "rise up" against oppression. But we aren't being oppressed by people, we are being oppressed by arithmetic.

Correction: Detroit is being oppressed by people who can't do arithmetic. They don't understand higher level math like the difference between positive and negative numbers.

[Zacha341]

Oh you can't 'take and justify the taking' forever without repercussions? It has an end?

Yeah that math went real bad, people are tired, getting tired and leaving or left... mostly the ones who left were paying taxes.... so there goes the positive numbers ala revenue.

Correction: Detroit is being oppressed by people who can't do arithmetic. They don't understand higher level math like the difference between positive and negative numbers.

[Scottathew]

The negative is that the EFM might cancel contracts, consolidate police, fire, and EMS, and layoff city workers. The positive is that there would be no more "Pay to Play". Federal money would go directly to what it was sent for. There would not be a Mayor playing the "ignorant" role and blaming members of his administration for the misuse of funds. There would be more entrepreneurs locally, nationally, and internationally opening there businesses or companies inside Detroit withouth the red tape. Eniment Domain may take over so that Ilitch or anyone else won't be able to sit on land and abandoned buildings that lined Woodward for years stalling the progress that the city want to make.

What you see as a negative; the canceling of union contracts and the laying off of excess workers, I see as a positive.

It most certainly is a bad thing for the workers, but it's a great thing for the citizens of Detroit. Union contracts in Detroit are unbalanced and give much more benefit to the workers instead of the citizens of Detroit. I know it's tough to cut pay from folks, but the workers need to be paid much closer to real-world wages, not these huge government wages where they get pensions on top of their wages.

I know it sounds like I'm heartless when it comes to government workers, but keep in mind that the big picture isn't 11,000 workers, but rather 700,000 under-served residents that live in a city about to go bankrupt.

The city also needs to privatize where it makes sense. Governments typically aren't very efficient at things, so let's get government out of the business of certain things by privatizing.

As to your comments about eminent domain, I don't really think that applies. The same eminent domain rules apply with or without an EFM. Also, I think a government run by an EFM would be LESS likely to exercise eminent domain because generally when you do so it's to spend large amounts of money to build things like freeways or other public works. Spending money is the opposite of what EFMs do.

[Novine]

"It most certainly is a bad thing for the workers, but it's a great thing for the citizens of Detroit. Union contracts in Detroit are unbalanced and give much more benefit to the workers instead of the citizens of Detroit. I know it's tough to cut pay from folks, but the workers need to be paid much closer to real-world wages, not these huge government wages where they get pensions on top of their wages."

A great thing for citizens of Detroit? Most city employees outside of police and fire are citizens of Detroit. They are part of that rapidly shrinking middle-class that still remains in the city. Slashing their pay and benefits is going to hurt the city as much as it hurts them individually. It's not the job of the city to employ people for the sake of employing people or to overpay them for the work that they do. But these cuts are going to have a negative impact far beyond the individuals involved.

Many of these people aren't getting rich off the city payroll. Some at management levels or those who have been around forever may be in that category. But that doesn't describe the rank-and-file level people on the city payroll. I'm sure that the attitude is that these people should be glad that they have a job. But I doubt that cutting their pay and benefits is going to lead to a more motivated, more customer-friendly or more qualified set of employees. What's coming is all bad for the citizens of Detroit and anyone who believes that the end result is going to produce any "winners" doesn't understand the seriousness of the problems that the city is facing.

[313WX]

The fact that so many people now are dependent on a government job just to live comfortable lives is just a sympton of the job crisis and wealth inequality crisis we truly have in America.

[Zacha341]

Yep, and the current administration uses this as an excuse [[and bargaining tool for votes) to continue to grow the government larger. Heck I'm gonna apply to work for the IRS.

The fact that so many people now are dependent on a government job just to live comfortable lives is just a sympton of the job crisis and wealth inequality crisis we truly have in America.

[Scottathew]

A great thing for citizens of Detroit? Most city employees outside of police and fire are citizens of Detroit. They are part of that rapidly shrinking middle-class that still remains in the city. Slashing their pay and benefits is going to hurt the city as much as it hurts them individually. It's not the job of the city to employ people for the sake of employing people or to overpay them for the work that they do. But these cuts are going to have a negative impact far beyond the individuals involved.

Many of these people aren't getting rich off the city payroll. Some at management levels or those who have been around forever may be in that category. But that doesn't describe the rank-and-file level people on the city payroll. I'm sure that the attitude is that these people should be glad that they have a job. But I doubt that cutting their pay and benefits is going to lead to a more motivated, more customer-friendly or more qualified set of employees. What's coming is all bad for the citizens of Detroit and anyone who believes that the end result is going to produce any "winners" doesn't understand the seriousness of the problems that the city is facing.

Yes, but you understand that the function of government is to provide services for the 700,000 not to provide jobs for the 11,000.

Your thinking to provide jobs and above market compensation does not help Detroit as a whole, but just a few select folks that work for the city.

[Novine]

As I stated before, it's not the job of the city to provide them a job or to overpay them for the job that they do. But I am challenging your claim that most of them are overpaid. I don't think that's the case at all and I doubt you can produce the numbers to support it. It's also not going to result in better services for the 700,000.

I'm also challenging your claim that the process of downsizing city government and cutting the pay of those who remain is going to have a positive impact on the city at large. What will happen is that the remaining middle class in Detroit will grow that much smaller, the people who are laid off won't be able to pay their mortgage or continue to support city businesses and will no longer be contributing in their small way to keeping the city afloat. That's going to have negative effects in all kinds of ways. There are no winners, just losers from all this.

[Buy American]

"It most certainly is a bad thing for the workers, but it's a great thing for the citizens of Detroit. Union contracts in Detroit are unbalanced and give much more benefit to the workers instead of the citizens of Detroit. I know it's tough to cut pay from folks, but the workers need to be paid much closer to real-world wages, not these huge government wages where they get pensions on top of their wages."

A great thing for citizens of Detroit? Most city employees outside of police and fire are citizens of Detroit. They are part of that rapidly shrinking middle-class that still remains in the city. Slashing their pay and benefits is going to hurt the city as much as it hurts them individually. It's not the job of the city to employ people for the sake of employing people or to overpay them for the work that they do. But these cuts are going to have a negative impact far beyond the individuals involved.

Many of these people aren't getting rich off the city payroll. Some at management levels or those who have been around forever may be in that category. But that doesn't describe the rank-and-file level people on the city payroll. I'm sure that the attitude is that these people should be glad that they have a job. But I doubt that cutting their pay and benefits is going to lead to a more motivated, more customer-friendly or more qualified set of employees. What's coming is all bad for the citizens of Detroit and anyone who believes that the end result is going to produce any "winners" doesn't understand the seriousness of the problems that the city is facing.

The only ones getting rich off the City payroll are the appointees and administration. Also, don't rule out the police and fire. The starting rate for a Detroit cop is around $30,000/yr.
Godbee just got a pimped out 2012 car with all the bells and whistles while the police are using their own cell phones to call in runs, don't have working computers in their police cars, and have antiquated equipment. Fire is the same. Get rid of the fat at the top, the perks, the cars, the drivers for the "elite", and maybe they can save some money that way. So many blame the workers and the unions for the woes of Detroit, while they forget about the raping and pillaging of a city by thugs like KK and even CAY.

[aj3647]

Say what you will about the EMF, but the ONLY thing that has mobilized Detroit to actually address its financial problems has been the imminent threat of a takeover. Prior to this, it's been "kick the can down the road and maintain business as usual" for the past 20 years. ONLY the threat of an EMF takeover has finally mobilized the City Council and the citizenry to take real action and consider serious but necessary cuts.

If the state had not passed the EMF law, would the City Council even be talking about laying off 2300+ workers or slashing pay/benefits? Or would it have been more business as usual, with the city racking up yet another massive deficit?

[Scottathew]

As I stated before, it's not the job of the city to provide them a job or to overpay them for the job that they do. But I am challenging your claim that most of them are overpaid. I don't think that's the case at all and I doubt you can produce the numbers to support it. It's also not going to result in better services for the 700,000.

I'm also challenging your claim that the process of downsizing city government and cutting the pay of those who remain is going to have a positive impact on the city at large. What will happen is that the remaining middle class in Detroit will grow that much smaller, the people who are laid off won't be able to pay their mortgage or continue to support city businesses and will no longer be contributing in their small way to keeping the city afloat. That's going to have negative effects in all kinds of ways. There are no winners, just losers from all this.

Does a bankrupt government that can't clear checks provide better service than a downsized government that can?

The main driving force here is financial insolvency.

One thing that you and I may agree on is that the cuts need to be done to more than just labor. Management needs to be reorganized, more efficient, and downsized as well.

[Scottathew]

The only ones getting rich off the City payroll are the appointees and administration. Also, don't rule out the police and fire. The starting rate for a Detroit cop is around $30,000/yr.
Godbee just got a pimped out 2012 car with all the bells and whistles while the police are using their own cell phones to call in runs, don't have working computers in their police cars, and have antiquated equipment. Fire is the same. Get rid of the fat at the top, the perks, the cars, the drivers for the "elite", and maybe they can save some money that way. So many blame the workers and the unions for the woes of Detroit, while they forget about the raping and pillaging of a city by thugs like KK and even CAY.

100% agree with you here. The waste by Detroit leadership is astonishing. From city cars for council members to pimped out cruisers for Godbee, the cuts need to be at all levels.

[Buy American]

Something to remember about Detroit finances is the fact that from CAY to thug KK, the audits were never done on time or ever and Detroit lost millions upon millions of dollars from the State because of their refusals to abide by the States rules. Those millions, plus the income taxes that haven't been collected over years and years, plus the millions of dollars that have been pilfered from the City coffers adds up to billions! Detroit would have been fine had it not been for the leadership that has been voted in and the appointees that have headed up departments over many years. Detroit voters stood by and re-elected a mayor who was a known thief and let him run the City into the ground.

[stasu1213]

Would the taxes the residents pay decrease due to the privatization of city services. Resident's tax dollars or property tax dollars was paying for garbage pickup. Would taxpayers have to come out of their own pockets and pay for their garbage to be pickup by a private at the same time still paying high taxes which include garbage pickup that city workers no longer do?

[Scottathew]

Would the taxes the residents pay decrease due to the privatization of city services. Resident's tax dollars or property tax dollars was paying for garbage pickup. Would taxpayers have to come out of their own pockets and pay for their garbage to be pickup by a private at the same time still paying high taxes which include garbage pickup that city workers no longer do?

You're thinking of the way they do it in the country where you don't get trash service unless you individually contract out with a company.

Privatization in Detroit means that the city still pays, except the city contracts it out to a company.

People who are for privatization point out the cost savings, the ability to government to get out of running things it's not efficient at running at, and the ability to get rid of expensive union contracts for unskilled labor such as refuse collection.

People who are against privatization point out that people will get laid off [[or paid less if absorbed), a potential for lower quality service, and the city has less control over the process.


In some scenarios the city will take a bid from the union as well as private companies.


There would be no need to increase taxes or decrease taxes, privatization only saves money by getting rid of expensive union labor, and generally results in more efficient service because trash companies are very good at collecting trash, and cities, at the very least are not as good. The savings would go towards the deficit.

[JBMcB]

The only ones getting rich off the City payroll are the appointees and administration. Also, don't rule out the police and fire. The starting rate for a Detroit cop is around $30,000/yr.

What's the pay after ten years? What's the pension rate, and how is it calculated? There's the issue where some communities calculate the pension rate based on the average of the last two years' wages, so the public servants bank up vacation time over the course of decades, then cash out their days for the last two years, spiking their wages to get a higher pension. The retirement age is often pretty low, as well.