4 dozen Catholic parishes targeted to close, merge in Detroit, suburbs

**rjk** · December-01-11, 05:49 AM

Archdiocese of Detroit reorganization recommendations

http://www.freep.com/article/20111201/NEWS05/112010553/4-dozen-Catholic-parishes-targeted-close-merge-Detroit-suburbs?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE

**detroittrader** · December-01-11, 08:37 AM

• One of three churches that dominate the near-downtown Detroit skyline along I-75 -- Sweetest Heart of Mary, St. Josaphat and St. Joseph near Eastern Market -- should plan to close.

I really hate seeing SHM and St. Josaphat on that list. Never been to St. Joseph, but I have always admired it from the outside.

**Gistok** · December-01-11, 08:54 AM

St. Joseph's is a gorgeous German Gothic style "hall church", that has some of the finest stained glass in Detroit. It was built 1870-73, and has been very well maintained, and has the best location of the 3, closest to downtown, facing Gratiot, near to Eastern Market, the Dequindre Cut, and Lafayette Park, and he eastern terminus to the Fisher Fwy.

Its' spire is reputedly the tallest in Detroit.

**Searay215** · December-01-11, 09:12 AM

I love this proposal that they have on their list see item below.
23 proposals would establish new, multi-parish teams or initiatives focused on inviting non-Catholics and inactive Catholics into/back into the church

If they want inactive Catholics to come back, maybe they should recognize us divorced Catholics. As it is now we are pariah and can't take part in many of the rites in the church. Also need priests who are married, who understand the world as it is, not as it was.

**sycloneman** · December-01-11, 09:16 AM

If they want inactive Catholics to come back, maybe they should recognize us divorced Catholics. As it is now we are pariah and can't take part in many of the rites in the church. Also need priests who are married, who understand the world as it is, not as it was.

I grew up Catholic, attended Catholic school, was an altar server.....I totally agree with you Searay. It's time for Vatican III.

I went on a tour of Pontiac churches recently, and found that 3 of the Catholic parishes in Pontiac have merged to form one parish.

**rjk** · December-01-11, 09:22 AM

Originally Posted by detroittrader

I really hate seeing SHM and St. Josaphat on that list. Never been to St. Joseph, but I have always admired it from the outside.

Sweetest Heart of Mary is by far the safest of the three.
It has more people attending mass, has the Pieorgi Fest which bring in a lot of money and is arguably the most beautiful Catholic church in the archdiocese.

I attended mass at St Josephat last year and I don't think there were 25 people there for mass. A Bishop has recently moved into the residence at St. Josephat so maybe that will figure into wheather it stays open or not.

My hunch is that St. Josephat will close if one of the three have to go.
It's only a stones throw away from SHM and St. Joes is one of a few German churches left in the area.

**Signman** · December-01-11, 09:25 AM

Originally Posted by Searay215

I love this proposal that they have on their list see item below.
23 proposals would establish new, multi-parish teams or initiatives focused on inviting non-Catholics and inactive Catholics into/back into the church

If they want inactive Catholics to come back, maybe they should recognize us divorced Catholics. As it is now we are pariah and can't take part in many of the rites in the church. Also need priests who are married, who understand the world as it is, not as it was.

In other words,quit being Catholic.
I doubt if changes like that were made, many like you would even come back anyways.

**ghettopalmetto** · December-01-11, 09:29 AM

Cleveland has been going through this process for the past few years. Essentially, what it boils down to:

1. Diocese implicitly supports endless suburban sprawl by continuously building new parishes in the hinterlands.

2. Money grows tight.

3. Old parishes in the central city and near suburbs are closed en masse.

4. Parishoners bitch and moan.

**jackie5275** · December-01-11, 09:30 AM

These recommendations are all preliminary anyway, so folks shouldn't get all up in arms yet. All the decision making will be done by Vigneron next year between Feb & June. This can & probably will end up a whole lot different than these recommendations.

**Gistok** · December-01-11, 09:40 AM

Originally Posted by rjk

Sweetest Heart of Mary is by far the safest of the three.
It has more people attending mass, has the Pieorgi Fest which bring in a lot of money and is arguably the most beautiful Catholic church in the archdiocese.

I agree with you on your assessment on the beauty of Sweetest Heart of Mary, which at 2,500 seats is the largest capacity Catholic Church within the city. But as someone who has seen many of the best Gothic Cathedrals of Europe, I have to say that St. Florian's most reminds me of those soaring stained glass filled giants. Its' verticality and sumptuous details gives the impression of more than just a parish church.

**rjk** · December-01-11, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by Gistok

I agree with you on your assessment on the beauty of Sweetest Heart of Mary, which at 2,500 seats is the largest capacity Catholic Church within the city. But as someone who has seen many of the best Gothic Cathedrals of Europe, I have to say that St. Florian's most reminds me of those soaring stained glass filled giants. Its' verticality and sumptuous details gives the impression of more than just a parish church.

I'm biased towards SHM because that's the church that I attend, but St. Florian is in my opinion is one of the most impressive as far as the exterior goes. What also adds to it's beauty is that it is surrounded by a densely populated community which can't be said of many of the old churches in this area.

**townonenorth** · December-01-11, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by rjk

I'm biased towards SHM because that's the church that I attend, but St. Florian is in my opinion is one of the most impressive as far as the exterior goes. What also adds to it's beauty is that it is surrounded by a densely populated community which can't be said of many of the old churches in this area.

I'll bet that soon enough St Florian and its complex will be sold to another congregation that will fill the church complex. Not Catholic though, and maybe not even Christian. There always remains the possibility that it can be supported as a worship center, which would be preferable to a sale.

**Danny** · December-01-11, 10:37 AM

This is much worse the Catholic Church closings in the Metro-Detroit area of 1988. Just as the Vatican tries of reform mass services.

**Danny** · December-01-11, 10:47 AM

Most Catholic Churches in America are slowly decline due to new age fantasms from cults to revised Prostestant Christian Apostolic Churches to revolution of Nation of Islam. Take a look at this movated superchurch in the Untied States.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3JfzRP_9a8

This superchurch has over 40,000 members and growing. It's at Houston Texas at the Old Summit/Campaq Stadium where the Houston Rockets used to play. It's founded by Reverand Joel Osteen, a motivated preacher.

**Bham1982** · December-01-11, 12:31 PM

St. Joseph's is probably the most impressive and beautiful church in the entire Archdiocese. I can't imagine they would close it. Though I do know that it has very light attendance.

IMO, it's far more impressive and beautiful than the cathedral.

**jcole** · December-01-11, 12:33 PM

The parishes with the deepest pockets will remain open.

**jackie5275** · December-01-11, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by jcole

The parishes with the deepest pockets will remain open.

That is truly the bottom line. None of those parishes are in the city, few even in Wayne County.

**ghettopalmetto** · December-01-11, 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by jackie5275

That is truly the bottom line. None of those parishes are in the city, few even in Wayne County.

And that's the kicker. The Diocese spent millions upon millions of dollars building new churches in the suburbs, chasing a fleeing population, and now it's the urban parishes that have to suffer for it.

This, to me, is completely inconsistent with Catholic values.

**jcole** · December-01-11, 01:37 PM

Actually, if you look at the proposals for the church closures, they will be merging and closing even in the out-lying suburbs. They can't just piecemeal close the Detroit parishes and expect the parishioners to drive 50 miles to go to mass. When I said deepest pockets, I was referring to among the proposed groupings i.e St. Jude/St. Matthew. St. Jude has more debt but St. Matt has the bigger campus and therefor the larger upkeep, so, in the documents posted on aodonline.org the Council's opinion is that St. Jude will be the likely worship site.
The excuse they are using for the parishes merging [[i.e.closing) is the lack of priests, citing that the merger of some parishes in Hazel Park, Madison Hts and RO will save "2.5 priests".
I call bullshit on that; whoever can feather the Archdiocese nest a little better than the other guy will get to be the church that stays open among the merged group and houses the parishioners from the closed parishes.

**ghettopalmetto** · December-01-11, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by jcole

The excuse they are using for the parishes merging [[i.e.closing) is the lack of priests, citing that the merger of some parishes in Hazel Park, Madison Hts and RO will save "2.5 priests".

I call bullshit on that; whoever can feather the Archdiocese nest a little better than the other guy will get to be the church that stays open among the merged group and houses the parishioners from the closed parishes.

I agree. Bishop Lennon of the Diocese of Cleveland made the same excuse. Well, if the Diocese hadn't built so many NEW churches in an area of stagnant population growth, there wouldn't be such a shortage now, would there?

[[Does anyone else see the connection between this situation and the overall situation in Metropolitan Detroit over the course of the past 60 years? Or am I just crazy?)

**antongast** · December-01-11, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by jcole

The excuse they are using for the parishes merging [[i.e.closing) is the lack of priests, citing that the merger of some parishes in Hazel Park, Madison Hts and RO will save "2.5 priests".
I call bullshit on that; whoever can feather the Archdiocese nest a little better than the other guy will get to be the church that stays open among the merged group and houses the parishioners from the closed parishes.

A lot of these parishes already share priests, don't they? I don't see how taking a 3-parish group that already shares a priest and closing one of the physical buildings reduces the need for priests.

**Bham1982** · December-01-11, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

And that's the kicker. The Diocese spent millions upon millions of dollars building new churches in the suburbs, chasing a fleeing population, and now it's the urban parishes that have to suffer for it.

This, to me, is completely inconsistent with Catholic values.

I don't disagree, but the people didn't follow the churches in their relocation. Rather, the churches followed the people.

What's the point of keeping St. Joseph open when 95% of the former parishoners live in places like Macomb Township? If you don't provide for them in their new location, you'll eventually lose them.

Or take the Jewish population. Let's say all the synagogues stayed open in NW Detroit, even as everyone moved to W. Bloomfield. What's the point? You would lose the subsequent generations. Folks aren't going to drive an hour for worship, religious education, social events, etc.

**ghettopalmetto** · December-01-11, 01:49 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

What's the point of keeping St. Joseph open when 95% of the former parishoners live in places like Macomb Township? If you don't provide for them in their new location, you'll eventually lose them.

Those people know where they go to church, and they certainly consider that when they move. What you wrote here would be similar to me moving 30 miles away, and demanding that my boss relocate the office so that I have a shorter commute. It's a bullshit line of thinking. The Diocese didn't have the money to chase population, and now the bill is coming due.

**jcole** · December-01-11, 02:01 PM

Part of the problem with the city churches,[[don't misunderstand me here, I find them beautiful and hate to see even one of them closed) is that they were built in the days when heating and lighting them was not a big deal. There was endless energy and parishioners will willing to pony up the cash to build, outfit and care for the upkeep of these churches. Those days are gone. No one has or wants to spend the money to upgrade these gorgeous old gothic and Romanesque palaces to today's technologies and green heating systems. There is a recommendation by the council that they 'merge' St. Monica/St. Augustine[[the old St Catherine), Nativity, Good Shepherd and St. Charles into one parish and build a large 'green' church that would service the Jefferson corridor.

**ghettopalmetto** · December-01-11, 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by jcole

Part of the problem with the city churches,[[don't misunderstand me here, I find them beautiful and hate to see even one of them closed) is that they were built in the days when heating and lighting them was not a big deal. There was endless energy and parishioners will willing to pony up the cash to build, outfit and care for the upkeep of these churches. Those days are gone. No one has or wants to spend the money to upgrade these gorgeous old gothic and Romanesque palaces to today's technologies and green heating systems. There is a recommendation by the council that they 'merge' St. Monica/St. Augustine[[the old St Catherine), Nativity, Good Shepherd and St. Charles into one parish and build a large 'green' church that would service the Jefferson corridor.

Bullshit. If Krakow, Poland can keep St. Mary's open [[constructed ca. 1300), then there isn't any excuse for the Archdiocese of Detroit, other than short-sightedness and piss-poor fiscal management.

The parishoners are there--the Archdiocese has merely diluted them into an ever-growing number of parishes over an ever-wider geographic area.