Found an interesting architectural rendering for the J. L. Hudson's Block

**Designerguy24** · November-22-11, 07:15 PM

Found this drawing on the Kraemer Design Group website. Does anyone know anything about it? http://www.thekraemeredge.com/index....woodward_block

**wolverine** · November-22-11, 07:48 PM

Yeah, that proposal was floated awhile back. Probably had more push during the mid 2000's when the condo market still looked promising. With the 2011 apartment tower boom in full effect nationwide in large cities, it would be nice to see the wheels turning on this again.

Though scratch the plaza....it won't work. You need massive amounts of population and street activity to create enough "pressure" to move people into retail plazas....unless you have an anchor store. But many cities struggle with layouts like this. It looks cool, but seemed more like a good idea at the time rather than based off a ridiculous amount of research.

**Scottathew** · November-22-11, 08:00 PM

Originally Posted by wolverine

Though scratch the plaza....it won't work. You need massive amounts of population and street activity to create enough "pressure" to move people into retail plazas....unless you have an anchor store. But many cities struggle with layouts like this. It looks cool, but seemed more like a good idea at the time rather than based off a ridiculous amount of research.

I agree. No plaza. Put retail on the first floor all along Woodward with no gaps. Then make the rest residential or office.

**animatedmartian** · November-22-11, 09:03 PM

It seems the thread that went into detail over this doesn't show up on the top page of google [[at least not for me.) The designer[[s) even comment in the thread about why it's designed the way it is. Personally, I like it.

http://atdetroit.net/forum/messages/...tml?1139945049
http://atdetroit.net/forum/messages/62684/66123.html [[page 2?)

**Gistok** · November-23-11, 01:41 AM

I'm surprised my comments weren't in the above references, because what bothered me most about the architecture was the "carport" roofs over the buildings.

Also I wasn't too thrilled with a mini-plaza among the otherwise solid streetwall from GCP to Campus Martius. I like the effect of the streetwall from Hart Plaza up to Grand Circus Park. With the demise of Ford Auditorium, Hart Plaza will have a more central orientation at the foot of Woodward. And Campus Martius is the center of the spoke of Detroit streets. Had there been a comparable open area to the west of the Hudson site, then perhaps two half mini plazas would have been more palatable. But not an asymmetrical one placed into an otherwise rather symmetrical grid. If anything, it would have been nice to continue the streetwall along the east side of Woodward at Comerica Park... but we all know that's not going to happen anytime soon....

It will be nice if in our lifetime the full "circle of buildings" around both Campus Martiius and Grand Circus Park were to be reconstructed.

Ironically there was never a ring of buildings completely around GCP, except on the west half. The spot across from the Detroit Opera House [[along Witherell between Madison & Adams) has always remained empty since the early 20th century.... purely parking.

**animatedmartian** · November-23-11, 03:47 AM

It seems a lot of people want the canyon back. I'm not terribly worried about it either way though I do hope there's another circle of buildings around GCP like it used to be or something similar.

**Gistok** · November-23-11, 03:23 PM

Originally Posted by animatedmartian

It seems a lot of people want the canyon back. I'm not terribly worried about it either way though I do hope there's another circle of buildings around GCP like it used to be or something similar.

The GCP ring of buildings is a visual effect that is not often found in downtowns around the USA. Indianapolis has its' Monument Circle, but it's just not as grand. And most cities are on the grid system so those spectacular views of a "parade of buildings" as [[formerly) found around GCP is the exception rather than the rule. Yes NYC has the squares, such as Times Square... but it just doesn't convey the architectural impact as well as it does a New Years Day ball drop.

In fact in NYC some of the grandest views are over Lexington Ave... the PAN AM Building and Helmsley Building, which are nicely framed from a distance. But one of the most disappointing things about visiting NYC is getting a nice closeup view of the Empire State Building. Since it's situated on a street grid... there are no good sight lines of the building, except the upper floors from a distance.

**Detroitnerd** · November-23-11, 03:50 PM

Yeah, I think we absolutely must build lots more Class A office space and "loft" units -- so we can maintain our vacancy rate and keep old buildings empty ...

And, yeah, I agree: Don't let's have a "plaza" interrupting the streetwall...

**DetroitPlanner** · November-24-11, 10:15 PM

There are lots of buildings in NYC that have both the 'streetwall' and plaza. This is due to some unique zoning that awards extra floor area ratio for buildings that do have plazas. These building take on interesting shapes where there is often odd cantelivers that one would think to be impossible.

Here is an extreme example:
http://www.aviewoncities.com/nyc/citigroupcenter.htm

The architect in this rendering is proposing something like the Rockefeller Center. This area is very pedestrian orientated and inviting. It certainly fits its surroundings even though it ruins the streetwall that is made up of Saks Fifth Avenue and St Patrick's Cathedral.

In Chicago similar treatments were used to give the City Daley Plaza.

My point is keep open to the new or different. If we kept things the way they were in 1950, we would not have Campus Martius or the River would still be covered with smokestacks.

**Gistok** · November-25-11, 01:12 AM

I'm familiar with the Citicorp HQ Building. Interesting architecture, but nowhere does it mention whether the sunken plaza is a success? For me personally, I might feel a little leery about being underneath a weighty 915 story building held up by 4 massive pylons, a proverbial architectural "sword of Damicles".

On the keeping things new or different front, I'm afraid Detroit has done that in the past as well with mixed results. Although Campus Martius is a success, the former bunker known as Kennedy Square and the Washington Blvd. Trolley & Tinker Toy Plaza were not.

Determining what is... and what is not going to be successful is not an exact science... I'm not sure how we can pick a winner from a stinkeroo...

**DetroitPlanner** · November-25-11, 08:53 AM

915 stories!?!

The point I was trying to make is that there are ways to keep the streetwall and build a plaza. I was not making a judgement about it bing successful ir not.

Rockefeller Center however is a success and it does not keep the streetwalls. When this was built a pedestrian street was built between 5th avenue and the ice skating rink carving out a space between 49 and 50th Streets and another Plaza was built carving out 3 blocks of public space between 5th and 6th Avenue. Not a stinkeroo by any means. Great for people watching.

**Gistok** · November-25-11, 03:12 PM

... but don't we already have our own Rockefeller Plaza....Campus Martius... including scating rink and many of the things that you mentioned? And Campus Martius also is our Times Square... where the ball drops on New Years midnight.

So similarities alone won't make for success for a Hudson's block plaza... there may be a use for it... but with Campus Martius so close at hand... there's no way to tell if it would be a success, or just another attempt at urbanism that didn't quite work out.

I'm not saying there is no use for such a plaza... I'm just saying that all the uses you've named are already available nearby [[including scating, fountain, statuary, official Christmas tree and New Years ball).

**DetroitPlanner** · November-25-11, 07:27 PM

Last I looked campus martius did no have the HQ to NBC, Radio City Music Hall, GE, dozens of stores..... it is a park. Rock center is more than bisecting courtyards. What I am trying to explain is that keeping a solid curtain of buildings is not always the best policy. If it was, maybe we should close down every street that intersects Woodward and build a building there.. right up to the sidewalk. Hudson's block is huge. It does not need to be one building. We don't need that much square feet of anything downtown right now. We have enough empty buldings as it is. If you want to save the empty historic buildings your best bet is to build stuff that compliments them, not competes with them.

**Gistok** · November-25-11, 08:10 PM

Well when one looks at the sheer vastness of the 22 acre 11 block area that constitutes Rockefeller Center....
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...9QEwAQ&dur=477

... I guess any comparison to either the Hudson block or Campus Martius is rather pointless...

**DetroitPlanner** · November-25-11, 08:50 PM

I am not comparing Campus Martius to Rock Center. This thread is about the proposal for the Hudson Block. I was comparing that proposal with what has worked well in other cities.

**Scottathew** · November-25-11, 11:03 PM

Detroit is not Manhattan.

What works in New York today, may not work in Detroit today.

For example, the plaza. What the plaza does is create more street and walking area in a dense space. It people off of highly populated streets.

I just don't think a plaza would work in present day Detroit, even in the CBD. Priority #1 for Detroit's CBD is to create a functional and continuous corridor. New York has all of mid and lower Manhattan. Chicago has Michigan Avenue, State Street, and the surrounding area.

Detroit only has pockets. I work near Campus Martius, which is nice. But if I walk down to the Grand Circus\Stadium area, there is nothing but empty stores and empty sidewalks. Then, when I arrive you see the bars and restaurants that support the stadiums and theaters. Right now we need to get demand for the existing surface area between those two spots, not create additional surface area to fill.

Some folks hinted at having a shops lining Woodward and then have a plaza behind them. This would work as long as this plaza was going to be used as a green space, but I strongly feel that all shops need to be as "on Woodward" as possible.

**DetroitPlanner** · November-26-11, 07:25 PM

If you go back to my first post. All I am trying to do is to get people to understand that thinking outside of the box is not neccessarily a bad thing. Anything that gets built there is going to be around for another 50-60 years at least. Why settle for something that is half-ass and conventional?

**Gistok** · November-27-11, 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

If you go back to my first post. All I am trying to do is to get people to understand that thinking outside of the box is not neccessarily a bad thing. Anything that gets built there is going to be around for another 50-60 years at least. Why settle for something that is half-ass and conventional?

Ummm... shouldn't that be "half-ass OR conventional"? The 2 are often mutually exclusive...

... and in your example of Rockefeller Center ruining the streetwall of nearby St. Patrick's Cathedral and Saks Fifth Avenue.... I read your aerial map differently....
Rockefeller Center

All the greenery is not plaza... but mostly rooftop gardens. This image of the part of Rockefeller Center directly across from St. Patrick's Cathedral shows how nicely the streetwall has been maintained by Rockefeller Center, not detracted from it....
http://www.greenroofs.com/projects/pview.php?id=666

Perhaps what irks me about the KDG design for the Hudson's block is not so much the plaza itself, but the curving building facades that go against the perspective of all the buildings along lower Woodward. That plaza in and of itself is not as contradictory to the streetwall concept so much as those curving buildings.

**stasu1213** · November-27-11, 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by 48091

Detroit is not Manhattan.

What works in New York today, may not work in Detroit today.

For example, the plaza. What the plaza does is create more street and walking area in a dense space. It people off of highly populated streets.

I just don't think a plaza would work in present day Detroit, even in the CBD. Priority #1 for Detroit's CBD is to create a functional and continuous corridor. New York has all of mid and lower Manhattan. Chicago has Michigan Avenue, State Street, and the surrounding area.

Detroit only has pockets. I work near Campus Martius, which is nice. But if I walk down to the Grand Circus\Stadium area, there is nothing but empty stores and empty sidewalks. Then, when I arrive you see the bars and restaurants that support the stadiums and theaters. Right now we need to get demand for the existing surface area between those two spots, not create additional surface area to fill.

Some folks hinted at having a shops lining Woodward and then have a plaza behind them. This would work as long as this plaza was going to be used as a green space, but I strongly feel that all shops need to be as "on Woodward" as possible.

I had walked from Campus Martius down Woodward to Woodward and Forest last night. I had forgotten what were in those empty spaces along Woodward past the Fox Theatre around Temple. There were probably were many businesses that lined that area of Woodward that didn't make the walk feel so isolated and lonely. A pedestrian doesn't feel lonely walking up 5th street going toward Rock Center or past it in Manhattan. There are many stores and activities going on that make the walk appears shorter. New York caters to the pedestrian while Detroit caters to the motorist. What ever goes into the former Hudson's site should include retail that line the sidewalk along Woodward. Please; no more parking structures especially on that site. The underground parking is good enough. Leaders and planners need to hurry up and do something about the empty storefronts that align Woodward from the Fisher to Petersboro along Woodward
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