1,077 New LED street lights in Downtown Detroit

[French777]

http://blog.thedetroithub.com/2011/1...s-lighting-up/

Anyone know of a timeline for this implementation? Nonetheless, sounds like an excellent idea to save the city money in the long run, and keep the power grid from going over capacity.

[Scottathew]

We are starting to get these in Warren, and M-DOT is starting to use them on freeway projects.

They look different, but not bad or anything. The light is acceptable.

They use less electricity and require far less maintenance because the LED lights last much longer.

As far as I'm concerned, every new light should be one of these, and we should start converting everything over!

[lilpup]

Ann Arbor has some of them. They're very bright and white/blue compared to the old lamps. I've seen a couple installed where it looks like they'd annoy homeowners, though, because the house fronts are really lit up.

[JBMcB]

I've seen them on some exit ramps along I-94. It's kind of disconcerting, since they are so light the poles holding them up look almost flimsy. They throw out a ton of light, though, since LEDs are pretty directional they light up the freeway nicely.

The only problem I've heard is that they tend to ice up in the winter, since they run so cool they don't melt ice off like incandescent lights. Then you need electrical heating elements to melt the ice off, and at that point the energy savings is a wash. It isn't a huge issue for streetlights, but it's a problem for traffic signals.

[lilpup]

The streetlights in Ann Arbor aren't heated. There's really no reason to heat the streetlights, they shed snow just like tree limbs do. Stoplights are where snow pileup is a problem.

[JBMcB]

The streetlights in Ann Arbor aren't heated. There's really no reason to heat the streetlights, they shed snow just like tree limbs do. Stoplights are where snow pileup is a problem.

You're right, I forgot to clarify that the icing issue is only with stoplights. I think it makes sense to replace the streetlights and wait until the stoplight issue is worked out.

[French777]

They have already converted several along Beaubien and around the BCBSM Campus Downtown to new LED Lights. I will say they do not provide as much light as I would have thought, but they most certainly look good, and it is nice to know that that corridor will always be lit. I can't wait till they do the Jefferson Avenue or Woodward Avenue street lights!

[Wesley Mouch]

Clarify some items on the thread...

LED lights do not light houses more than regular light. An LED fixture can be as directional as any other light.

LED color is also variable. Its hard and more expensive to get some colors, but its quite possible -- see the colored lights at concerts now are LED -- any color possible.

Just be careful here about wanting to install these too quickly. This is still young technology. The big players are just now really getting serious. There's a lot of junk out there in the market, and you don't want to get stuck with it. That's why MDOT just did a few fixtures. Need to get them out there working for a while. The LED has unbelievable potential for energy savings and longevity, but that doesn't necessarily mean the fixture your government just spent $15,000 installing does.

[Parkguy]

The new lights on the Southfield Expressway are all LED.

[JBMcB]

LED lights do not light houses more than regular light. An LED fixture can be as directional as any other light.

LEDs are actually more directional than incandescent bulbs, the panels are angled or have diffuser panels to spread the light out. The rectangular panels on the I-94 exit/entry ramps at 9-mile illuminate almost *exactly* the road, and not much else.

LED color is also variable. Its hard and more expensive to get some colors, but its quite possible -- see the colored lights at concerts now are LED -- any color possible.

Mood streetlights! They can set them up like the outside of the Motor City Casino. Detroit will look like LA in Blade Runner.

I'm not 100% sure but I think I read somewhere that white and blue LEDs have the highest light output per watt burned, in terms of usable light.

I'm not sure what color light would be better. Cool white light is better in clear conditions and fog, yellow light is better in overcast snowy conditions [[it provides better contrast against the white - ski goggles are tinted yellow for this reason.)

[Scottathew]

Just be careful here about wanting to install these too quickly. This is still young technology. The big players are just now really getting serious. There's a lot of junk out there in the market, and you don't want to get stuck with it. That's why MDOT just did a few fixtures. Need to get them out there working for a while. The LED has unbelievable potential for energy savings and longevity, but that doesn't necessarily mean the fixture your government just spent $15,000 installing does.

You bring up a good point.

I bought an LED nightlight from Meijer. I was excited that I just reduced my usage from 7 watts per nightlight to around 1 watt.

However, after only a few weeks the light output of the LED nightlights were severely reduced. My wife, with not much exaggeration, stated that the LED nightlights only illuminated the very electrical outlet they were plugged into.

I ended up losing money on buying cheap LED lights instead of saving.

However, with the right amount of research and maturing it can be a home-run. I've got full faith in M-DOT, they seem to really do their homework.


Same thing goes for CFL's. I bought cheap off-brand ones and regretted it due to the noise they made. And the really cheap ones can take a long time to fully "warm-up", although I like that it takes a while for full power, my wife doesn't.

[Wesley Mouch]

LEDs are actually more directional than incandescent bulbs, the panels are angled or have diffuser panels to spread the light out. The rectangular panels on the I-94 exit/entry ramps at 9-mile illuminate almost *exactly* the road, and not much else.
...
I'm not 100% sure but I think I read somewhere that white and blue LEDs have the highest light output per watt burned, in terms of usable light.

I'm not sure what color light would be better. Cool white light is better in clear conditions and fog, yellow light is better in overcast snowy conditions [[it provides better contrast against the white - ski goggles are tinted yellow for this reason.)

You touch on something important here.

One thing is certain. Almost all commercial / civic lighting is going to change to LED over the next decade or so.

This is a great opportunity for re-thinking of lighting. So much of what we get for lighting is based upon the nature of the 'bulb'. Reflectors, diffusers and such all work to shape the light. But with the LED, there's a wholesale change of the techniques and opportunities. I hope we capitalize on them.

You touched on three major factors; color, efficiency, and pattern.

Now we have mostly horrific yellow/orange of sodium vapor lamps for public lighting [[except for city cores and other expensive areas) because its cheap. The fact that the color is obnoxious and the fixtures glare in our eyes probably hurt our ability to see things at night as much as they help.

The future could be reasonably efficient, pleasantly white fixtures that don't spray light in our faces. And keep the skies darker.

Also don't discount the fact that LED's can be made in linear and other shapes now. We're so used to the idea that there are light 'bulbs'. But we can no have light 'strips'. You could conceivably light a highway from a dangling wire run down the middle, with no single bulb-like source. In your house, lights can be installed along the entire length of a wall. Think outside the bulb.

End of rant. Sorry -- but the future could really look good, if we want.

[beachboy]

Interesting thread, cool comments. Additional factoids:

- LED lights have been used reliably in Europe for several years. Claims that they "aren't safe", "cause fires", "aren't mature technology", "wear out quickly", etc., are just marketing BS. Two of my winter neighbors [[in Florida) are from Germany - they brought an innovative LED lightbulb over a few days ago. This LED has two controls - one for intensity, the other for color [[cool white to warm glow like an incandescent). Probably 10 years before we see those in the States ... if ever.

- CFL lifetime is limited by off-on power cycling. So if you use a CFL for a long time after you turn it on, you can get some efficiency after you amortize cost [[say, with respect to an incandescent bulb). How much you save depends on your usage pattern. For example, if you just flip on the CFL, grab something from the room it illuminates, then flip off the CFL, several times a day, you'll likely exceed the power-cycle limit [[CFL dies) before you amortize cost with respect to an incandescent.

- Really wanna save electric costs? Get an on/off switch installed on your hot water heater. Turn it on 1/2 hour before you [[or family) take bath[[s), turn it off afterward then do the dishes/washing. I cut 30-40 percent off our electric costs that way [[savings are seasonal here due to A/C usage). The switch and a licensed electrician to install it paid for itself in 3 months! DIY, maybe 1 month. Up North, an efficient [[on-demand) boiler might be a good choice...

Kudos to Detroit for experimenting with LEDs. Gotta try some new things now and then

[Hypestyles]

what are the roadblocks in michigan for more municipalities to incorporate LEDs in public lighting? Lobbying?

[Wesley Mouch]

Interesting thread, cool comments. - Really wanna save electric costs? Get an on/off switch installed on your hot water heater.

This is standard in parts of Europe I've seen -- where they use electric for HW. Its a great idea.

[DetroitPlanner]

what are the roadblocks in michigan for more municipalities to incorporate LEDs in public lighting? Lobbying?

Capital costs are very high. Most DPWs can't afford to patch potholes. The irony is that this type of lighting would save a ton in operational costs, freeing up money but the capital dollars are not there due to massive cutbacks at the local, state, and federal levels.

[Gistok]

The LED lighting of I-94 in SCS and Roseville last summer took forever to complete... nearly 6 months. They removed every freeway streetlight, put new ones [[single lamp instead of the older double lamp) and relocated them to about 10 ft. from the existing ones, rebuilt part of the median barriers, and used an enormous amount of MDOT trucks [[at least 2 dozen) to just sit parked in basically the same spot all summer long last year.

They spent so much time and resources, that any savings they would get from the new will likely take them many years to recoup. It wasn't so much "what" they were doing... it was how long it took, and how many trucks and people were dedicated to the project that seemed puzzling.

[MSUguy]

I've seen them on some exit ramps along I-94. It's kind of disconcerting, since they are so light the poles holding them up look almost flimsy. They throw out a ton of light, though, since LEDs are pretty directional they light up the freeway nicely.

The only problem I've heard is that they tend to ice up in the winter, since they run so cool they don't melt ice off like incandescent lights. Then you need electrical heating elements to melt the ice off, and at that point the energy savings is a wash. It isn't a huge issue for streetlights, but it's a problem for traffic signals.

The lights along 94 aren't LED. I did see driving 696 west of 75 tonight, a lot of new lights that look to be LED