New poll indicates opposition to the proposed second Detroit River bridge.

[kraig]

http://www.freep.com/article/2011101...text|FRONTPAGE

Of course, as with any poll, the results have to be taken with a grain of salt. However, it is worth noting that the poll question seemed pretty straightforward.

[bartock]

http://www.freep.com/article/2011101...text|FRONTPAGE

Of course, as with any poll, the results have to be taken with a grain of salt. However, it is worth noting that the poll question seemed pretty straightforward.

You have got to be kidding me. We all know where you stand on this, but you are acting as though this is just some poll. It is an alleged poll funded by the billionaire himself and the alleged pollster is a "conservative group." No credibility.

[corktownyuppie]

You have got to be kidding me. We all know where you stand on this, but you are acting as though this is just some poll. It is an alleged poll funded by the billionaire himself and the alleged pollster is a female "conservative group." No credibility.

*results taken from a random selection of 100 members of the Moroun Family

[Diehard]

Why would the Freep even publish this, knowing that the source is nowhere near objective?

[kraig]

You have got to be kidding me. We all know where you stand on this, but you are acting as though this is just some poll. It is an alleged poll funded by the billionaire himself and the alleged pollster is a "conservative group." No credibility.

And just where do I stand on this [[after you respond I'll tell you exactly where I stand)? Did I or did I not state that this poll should be taken with a grain of salt? And aren't most polls funded by someone who has a stake in the outcome? Which is the reason why I focused on the phrasing of the question. Do you consider the question vague or straightforward?

[kraig]

Why would the Freep even publish this, knowing that the source is nowhere near objective?

For the sake of objectivity on their part. How fair would it look if, at a future date, the Free Press published poll results that were Pro-DRIC and had not published these polling results? Not to mention, they wouldn't want to get scooped by the Detroit news on this either.

[upinottawa]

This issue is clearly one of national importance in Canada. The following link is to an opinion from Canada's national newspaper's [[The Globe and Mail) editoral board: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle2202819/

[bartock]

And just where do I stand on this [[after you respond I'll tell you exactly where I stand)? Did I or did I not state that this poll should be taken with a grain of salt? And aren't most polls funded by someone who has a stake in the outcome? Which is the reason why I focused on the phrasing of the question. Do you consider the question vague or straightforward?

You have stated neutrality, but your posts suggest somewhere between all-out support for Maroun and all-out disdain for a public bridge. You stated to be taken with a grain of salt "like any poll" without mentioning the source. I don't think most polls that are published by newspapers as ostensible suggestion of fact are so blatantly from one side. I DO consider the question vague because it is asked in a vaccuum, without regard to any context.

[hamtown mike]

I love how the international bridge company opposition commercials state that "Traffic is down"
So does that mean they've abandoned the idea of building a second bridge themselves?

[kraig]

You have stated neutrality, but your posts suggest somewhere between all-out support for Maroun and all-out disdain for a public bridge. You stated to be taken with a grain of salt "like any poll" without mentioning the source. I don't think most polls that are published by newspapers as ostensible suggestion of fact are so blatantly from one side. I DO consider the question vague because it is asked in a vaccuum, without regard to any context.

Here's where I stand. Over ten years ago I had a grandmother that was thrown out of her home [[that was already paid for) by the City for the Graimark, now called Jefferson Village, development. Before that, she had been kicked out of homes on Monroe, where the Franklin Wright homes off of Chene and Lafayette are, and not too much longer after that out of the area that would become the Poletown Plant. Each time being paid peanuts compared to how much equity had been put into her homes. All was done under eminent domain. In not one case was she compensated enough to cover even the smallest down payment for another house that was worth moving into. And after the last time, most mortgage companies viewed her as to old to give a mortgage to. Fortunately, I was awarded a grant for school at that time which allowed me to take money that I had saved and use it to get her a nice place. But I can imagine that there were a lot of people that weren't as lucky as we were.

So you'll have to forgive me if I'm willing to take a hard look at any project that plans on displacing a number of people, especially seniors, out onto the streets. Because that's precisely what this plan calls for. But of course, that's not going to find its way into any of the literature of the DRIC or get highlighted in a speech by the governor to an economic club
.
As far as Moroun goes, I wish he wasn't a factor at all. Most people are more anti-Matty than they are Pro-DRIC. And at some point people need to just look at the DRIC for its own merits. There are going to be a lot of people in Delray that will be displaced from their homes. And until the needs of the people affected are legitimately addressed, then that project shouldn't go through.

That's where I stand.

[Detroitnerd]

1) Spend millions trying to scare the public with commercials saying the new bridge will cost them dearly.

2) Keep running ads day and night.

3) Set up a poll asking people if they'd approve of a new bridge.

Monty Moroun: "Excellent ..."

[bartock]

Here's where I stand. Over ten years ago I had a grandmother that was thrown out of her home [[that was already paid for) by the City for the Graimark, now called Jefferson Village, development. Before that, she had been kicked out of homes on Monroe, where the Franklin Wright homes off of Chene and Lafayette are, and not too much longer after that out of the area that would become the Poletown Plant. Each time being paid peanuts compared to how much equity had been put into her homes. All was done under eminent domain. In not one case was she compensated enough to cover even the smallest down payment for another house that was worth moving into. And after the last time, most mortgage companies viewed her as to old to give a mortgage to. Fortunately, I was awarded a grant for school at that time which allowed me to take money that I had saved and use it to get her a nice place. But I can imagine that there were a lot of people that weren't as lucky as we were.

So you'll have to forgive me if I'm willing to take a hard look at any project that plans on displacing a number of people, especially seniors, out onto the streets. Because that's precisely what this plan calls for. But of course, that's not going to find its way into any of the literature of the DRIC or get highlighted in a speech by the governor to an economic club
.
As far as Moroun goes, I wish he wasn't a factor at all. Most people are more anti-Matty than they are Pro-DRIC. And at some point people need to just look at the DRIC for its own merits. There are going to be a lot of people in Delray that will be displaced from their homes. And until the needs of the people affected are legitimately addressed, then that project shouldn't go through.

That's where I stand.

Well, that is certainly a unique perspective and I respect it. However, as the population of Delray continues to decline, the number of folks to be displaced shrinks as well. If I recall, the highest number of potential people displaced was the low 1,000 - something. These are different days and a different situation than those of your family's, but your skepticism is totally understandable.

I do think that the fact that this is Moroun must be taken into consideration. The greed and the amount of blight this man has caused/contributed to over the years is part of the reason why Delray is what it is today. I do think the situation would be different on this side if it was one of the other very few billionaires with ties to Michigan, though I'm not sure Canada would care either way. Even from a lesser of two evils argument, I'm voting Eminent Domain and hoping that the displaced folks get into better housing in less polluted environs.

Thanks for your take. Sincerely.

[kraig]

Well, that is certainly a unique perspective and I respect it. However, as the population of Delray continues to decline, the number of folks to be displaced shrinks as well. If I recall, the highest number of potential people displaced was the low 1,000 - something. These are different days and a different situation than those of your family's, but your skepticism is totally understandable.

I do think that the fact that this is Moroun must be taken into consideration. The greed and the amount of blight this man has caused/contributed to over the years is part of the reason why Delray is what it is today. I do think the situation would be different on this side if it was one of the other very few billionaires with ties to Michigan, though I'm not sure Canada would care either way. Even from a lesser of two evils argument, I'm voting Eminent Domain and hoping that the displaced folks get into better housing in less polluted environs.

Thanks for your take. Sincerely.

" If I recall, the highest number of potential people displaced was the low 1,000 - something."

That's a lot of people getting screwed over.

[bartock]

It is actually 690 people, according to an article in MLive. 40 businesses and 5 churches. That may seem like a lot, but it doesn't approach what Poletown was.

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in...e_deal_mo.html

[ferntruth]

It is actually 690 people, according to an article in MLive. 40 businesses and 5 churches. That may seem like a lot, but it doesn't approach what Poletown was.

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in...e_deal_mo.html

While I concede the point that 690 people is no where near the number inpacted by Poletown, that is of little comfort to the 690 people, 40 businesses and 5 churches that will be potentially impacted by the construction of a bridge that I am not yet convinced we even need [[other than as a way to stick it to Moroun and end his monopoly, that is).

I realize that by the thinking of some on DYes, this must mean that I am in Moroun's pocket, but those individuals need to realize that the world is not divided into Moroun supporters and Moroun haters.

[Detroitnerd]

No one company or man should have a monopoly on an international crossing. We've been trying to get TWO crossings so that we can have two separate bridges that could not be both knocked out with one terrorist event. Instead, it's been TEN YEARS while this gets dragged out by one company that sees this as a threat to his power.

Which just goes to show you: Nobody should have that power in the first place.

Here's an idea: Use eminent domain to take Matty's bridge away. Miraculously, you'll hear no more complaining about those people in Delray.

[kraig]

While I concede the point that 690 people is no where near the number inpacted by Poletown, that is of little comfort to the 690 people, 40 businesses and 5 churches that will be potentially impacted by the construction of a bridge that I am not yet convinced we even need [[other than as a way to stick it to Moroun and end his monopoly, that is).

I realize that by the thinking of some on DYes, this must mean that I am in Moroun's pocket, but those individuals need to realize that the world is not divided into Moroun supporters and Moroun haters.

Nice post. I couldn't help but think of the poor guy that was operating the bait shop by the Ambassador Bridge. This man got screwed over big time by Matty. And while Matty may be due to get screwed over, it shouldn't be done at the expense of others. Are we really at the point were we're willing to throw people out into the street and shut down businesses and churches just to spite Moroun? I think those that are left homeless and put out of business will take no comfort in the fact that Moroun now only makes 45 million a year off of his bridge instead of 60 million.

[Gistok]

I too am no Moroun fan... but he does hold a few more cards that folks here like to give him credit for... all he has to do is to price his bridge tolls lower than the minimum that the DIBC bridge could possibly sustain and still make their bond payments on. Maroun's bridge has no debt... so he can make certain that any other bridge will require taxpayers to partially fund the debt.

And if he can do so... he'll let Wall Street bond investors know this in advance... possibly making the DBIC bonds either unsellable... or making the taxpayers guarantee the bonds.

[animatedmartian]

I too am no Moroun fan... but he does hold a few more cards that folks here like to give him credit for... all he has to do is to price his bridge tolls lower than the minimum that the DIBC bridge could possibly sustain and still make their bond payments on. Maroun's bridge has no debt... so he can make certain that any other bridge will require taxpayers to partially fund the debt.

And if he can do so... he'll let Wall Street bond investors know this in advance... possibly making the DBIC bonds either unsellable... or making the taxpayers guarantee the bonds.

Ya know, people say it's not good to wish the death of a person, but he is 84...

[Scottathew]

1) Spend millions trying to scare the public with commercials saying the new bridge will cost them dearly.

2) Keep running ads day and night.

3) Set up a poll asking people if they'd approve of a new bridge.

Monty Moroun: "Excellent ..."

100% agreement with the 'Nerd on this one.

[bartock]

Ya know, people say it's not good to wish the death of a person, but he is 84...

His son is an apple right next to the tree.

To Gistok's point, Maroun owns many of the trucks AND owns the offshore insurance companies that insure those trucks. It will be interesting to see how that plays out. I still like the DIBC bridge idea, but he does hold a few cards indeed.

[ferntruth]

No one company or man should have a monopoly on an international crossing. We've been trying to get TWO crossings so that we can have two separate bridges that could not be both knocked out with one terrorist event. Instead, it's been TEN YEARS while this gets dragged out by one company that sees this as a threat to his power.

Which just goes to show you: Nobody should have that power in the first place.

Here's an idea: Use eminent domain to take Matty's bridge away. Miraculously, you'll hear no more complaining about those people in Delray.

An international crossing should never be owned by a private citizen. However, the reality is that this is the case with the Ambassador bridge.

I don't entirely buy the "we need a second bridge in case of a terrorist attack" argument. We only have one tunnel - should we build a second one in case of an attack on that?
Additionally, having a second bridge doesn't necessarily make us better prepared in the event of an attack - you will recall there were two towers on the WTC site, and OBL managed to knock them both down.

As to "those people in Delray" - I don't consider us taking them into consideration to be "complaining". Then again, I don't have "we need a new bridge at any cost" glasses on.

[Detroitnerd]

An international crossing should never be owned by a private citizen. However, the reality is that this is the case with the Ambassador bridge.

Doesn't have to be. The bridge was one of the last private works before the grand era of modern PUBLIC works. In the old days, private business did it because it was a license to print money. But there were also charters granted these sorts of enterprises to use them only for a specific amount of time before they aided the general prosperity.

I don't entirely buy the "we need a second bridge in case of a terrorist attack" argument. We only have one tunnel - should we build a second one in case of an attack on that?

We have another tunnel, the rail tunnel to Canada which can be converted into a vehicular tunnel. Guess who's stopping that conversion from taking place?

Additionally, having a second bridge doesn't necessarily make us better prepared in the event of an attack - you will recall there were two towers on the WTC site, and OBL managed to knock them both down.

That's some pretty thin reasoning, I think.

As to "those people in Delray" - I don't consider us taking them into consideration to be "complaining". Then again, I don't have "we need a new bridge at any cost" glasses on.

People, ANY people living in Delray are essentially fucked. I don't hear anybody aligned with this anti-bridge movement complaining about the $2 billion expansion of Marathon into a tar sands processing plant that's going to befoul their environment. I wonder why?

[Tonyo313]

If anyone is getting their "educated opinions" from the Moron, er, Moroun funded TV ads, they're a bigger idiot than HE is!!! HE is responsible for those destroyed roads. One of the roads he shows in the ads is under HIS Train Station [[yes - he owns it). I do feel for the folks in Delray, and their interests are the only legitimate CON involved in this issue, but I think it is totally possible to build this project, which will benefit the overwhelming majority of people and businesses in Southeast Michigan and Southwest Ontario, and not destroy or seriously uproot or disturb life in Delray. Let's face it, what political opposition [[in Lansing and in Southwest Detroit and beyond) exists is LARGELY paid for by the Morouns, no question. If you don't think so you are grossly naive. I cannot stress any more strongly how much we DO need this bridge -- first for the revenues that will actually help FIX our roads, second to offer to competition to the Ambassador Bridge, Manny's cash cow, and most importantly, to increase capacity and commercial traffic [[which IS coming and he knows it)!!!

[detlump]

Why can't the federal government just come in and get this done? It's tying into the interstate highway system anyway, and could be called a matter of national security if not national economy - and bypass Michigan legislature all together?

Meanwhile, the Canadians are building the access roads - I wish local news would cover that aspect. Biggest project in Canada.