GM's discontinued brand Pontiac

lilpup · June-02-09, 02:27 AM

Where do you think Pontiac customers will shift to? Will they step down to Chevy or slightly up to the low end Cadillac? I can't see them migrating to Buick at all. Or will they abandon GM altogether?

**R8RBOB** · June-02-09, 06:07 AM

Originally Posted by lilpup

Where do you think Pontiac customers will shift to? Will they step down to Chevy or slightly up to the low end Cadillac? I can't see them migrating to Buick at all. Or will they abandon GM altogether?

More than likely they have already shifted to Chevrolet. One of the reasons General Motors killed Pontiac is that GM had discontined most of the Pontiac line.

Grand Prix
Bonneville
Firebird
Grand Am

I could go back and say
LeMans
Fiero
Catalina

but I think you get the point.

**luckycar** · June-02-09, 06:20 AM

lilpup,this is what will happen.Pontiacs loyal,and mean loyal as in "our family only bought Pontiacs" loyal will stay with GM.The rest have already left.Most of these customers have gone to other makes.This happened with Oldsmobile.They,we, were the most loyal customers GM had.We bought Rodger Smiths crappy A-cars,Cutlass Ciera,by the thousands.We waited for the next gen. of "import fighters",the Alero and Intrigue,and snapped up these good cars even when they were too embarassed to put an Olds emblem on them.In the end the 250,000 cars that was Oldsmobiles share of GMs shrinking market share wasn't enough to save it.Where did those customers go?Toyota,Honda and Audi/Lexus/BMW for the Aurora owners.Pontiac buyers will love their new Kias and Hyundias.

**O-Dawg** · June-02-09, 07:56 AM

Does the kind of brand loyalty which once defined "Ford families" or "Chevrolet families" still exist? Or do most people now choose cars for other reasons? I drive a Pontiac Vibe, the first Pontiac I've ever owned. I didn't buy it because it says Pontiac on it, I bought it because it's a good car--reliable, economical and fun to drive--exactly the sort of car GM needs. For that reason I expect GM to continue the Vibe, if under another name; remember, GM's cars built at NUMMI were once called Nova and then Geo Prizm, then Chevy Prizm before they were Pontiacs. I also wouldn't be surprised if the Solstice is continued under a different nameplate; it has no direct competitor except the Miata, sort of, and it's also low cost, fun to drive and relatively fuel efficient. The G8 could continue as a niche vehicle, probably a Cadillac, and the GTO nameplate still has tremendous brand equity even if the kind of car the GTO was/is isn't currently in high demand.

I also think that, over time, GM may move to selling cars branded simply as "GM" rather than Buick, Cadillac, etc.; that's the logical extension of the brand consolidation which has been underway for years now, and it woud greatly simplify marketing and distribution.

**pffft** · June-02-09, 08:03 AM

Sigh, isn't the Vibe great? I hear NUMMI might not be around for long though...

**mjs** · June-02-09, 08:19 AM

From the looks of their production numbers, NUMMI started as mostly GM and transitioned to mostly Toyota. So, with the bankruptcy, it may just go 100% Toyota. Interesting because I'm pretty sure its a UAW shop.

http://www.nummi.com/facts.php

**Ltdave** · June-02-09, 08:24 AM

I'm pretty sure its a UAW shop.

yes it is...

**East Detroit** · June-02-09, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by lilpup

Where do you think Pontiac customers will shift to? Will they step down to Chevy or slightly up to the low end Cadillac? I can't see them migrating to Buick at all. Or will they abandon GM altogether?

Maybe they will go with Mercury. Perhaps good that Ford didn't ditch Mercury a year ago.

**Scottr** · June-02-09, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by lilpup

Where do you think Pontiac customers will shift to? Will they step down to Chevy or slightly up to the low end Cadillac? I can't see them migrating to Buick at all. Or will they abandon GM altogether?

Although at one time Pontiac was a step up from Chevy, I don't think you could say the same now. The G3 [[which should never have happened) is a rebadged Aveo. G5=Cobalt, Torrent=Equinox. The Malibu is a newer model on the same platform as the G6, although the styling is aimed at a different buyer, I would call the Malibu a step up. The Solstice is low-volume anyways, so that does little harm.

So the answer to your question, is mostly to Chevy. Some will be lost to other manufacturers [[including Saturn), but out of those who stay with GM, most will end up with a bowtie on their next car. Whether those that leave GM make up a small percentage or a large one, is really a difficult one to answer at this time. How many are loyal to a particular manufacturer? How many could care less? How many are pissed off at the government ownership and refuse to touch GM? Really, we won't know until we start seeing sales results. Until then, it's all talk, and you'll hear more from those complaining than you ever will from those that will stick with GM.

The only real loss in the Pontiac lineup is the G8, but I doubt GM made much money off it anyways, being an Austrailian import. Now, if they could build it in Oshawa alongside the Camaro [[both are on the same platform), they might be able to badge it as the next Impala or Lucerne, although they've denied that will happen. Given the new mileage requirements, it's unlikely to be seen in the US again. Too bad, the G8 was arguably the best Pontiac in years, and easily among the top of GM's entire lineup.

**Scottr** · June-02-09, 11:55 AM

O-Dawg, the Solstice is dead. The plant it's built at is closing in July. the only other car built on the platform is the Saturn Sky and its Opel/Vauxhall twins. It's just not feasible to continue to build it.

GTO has been gone for a while... and there's no sense in bringing that nameplate back under any other brand, when they each have their own history to pull from.

It also doesn't make sense to rebrand it all as GM, in any way, shape or form. Cadillac has a specific image it's created. So does Chevy. Toyota does the same, with Lexus and Scion, Honda with Acura. Would you buy a Bentley with a VW logo on the hood? Why throw all that aside? You lose more than you gain. Companies spend years and millions - if not billions - of dollars to create a brand image, and you propose eliminating that to save a few bucks on marketing. Buick is actually a good example - it had a fantastic brand image, but let itself go to save a few bucks, becoming no more than rebadged chevys - and its sales plummeted. It has taken years to just start to regain that image.

**kryptonite** · June-03-09, 03:32 PM

I currently have a 2003 Pontiac that I am very happy with. But I am thinking about what I will get next. I would love a Cadillac CTS but it's basically out of my price range and I believe they are all eight cylinder plus rear-wheel drive which I'm not fond of. so i'm thinking about the Malibu although I have to say I really like the Mercury Milan and the Ford equivalent of that model. With gas prices so high I want no more than a six cylinder engine.

**East Detroit** · June-03-09, 10:58 PM

Let's put you into that Ford Fusion, then. Need a discount?

**mjs** · June-03-09, 11:04 PM

The Fusion hybrid gives you the improved gas mileage and a $3400 tax credit.

**kryptonite** · June-04-09, 06:04 AM

I guess I will have to check out the Ford Fusion. A friend of mine just switched from a older Honda and bought a Ford Fusion, she has been very impressed with the Fusion.

Still, it's sad to see Pontiac going away. My last two cars were Grand Prixs and particularly the 2003 has been a great car. It's much better in the snow than a friend's Mercedes, which we both agree is a crap car basically with a lot of froo-froo gadgets, many of which neither of us can figure out. And god forbid there should be more than 2" of snow, the Mercedes will be worthless on the road in that scenario. Plus my Grand Prix has a roomier interior and gets MUCH better gas mileage than his Mercedes. I personally would not be interested in a Mercedes even if I were offered a huge deal on one.

**ejames01** · June-04-09, 07:41 AM

Are you being serious?

Originally Posted by kryptonite

I guess I will have to check out the Ford Fusion. A friend of mine just switched from a older Honda and bought a Ford Fusion, she has been very impressed with the Fusion.

Still, it's sad to see Pontiac going away. My last two cars were Grand Prixs and particularly the 2003 has been a great car. It's much better in the snow than a friend's Mercedes, which we both agree is a crap car basically with a lot of froo-froo gadgets, many of which neither of us can figure out. And god forbid there should be more than 2" of snow, the Mercedes will be worthless on the road in that scenario. Plus my Grand Prix has a roomier interior and gets MUCH better gas mileage than his Mercedes. I personally would not be interested in a Mercedes even if I were offered a huge deal on one.

**EastsideAl** · June-04-09, 10:12 AM

Originally Posted by O-Dawg

Does the kind of brand loyalty which once defined "Ford families" or "Chevrolet families" still exist?

This was always a more powerful factor in the Detroit ares than elsewhere, for reasons that should be obvious. My father always liked to joke that he and my mother were a "mixed marriage," between a Chrysler family and a Ford family. And, later on, when I started buying Fords, that I had inherited the "Ford gene" from my mother's side of the family.

So the brand loyalty certainly exists in my family, as I can remember my dad driving almost nothing but Chryslers for all of my 50 years. And after my family finally had enough money for two cars, mom always bought Fords. Of course, as it is for so many of us, all of this had its roots in the working history of their families. My mother's father worked at Ford's for over 30 years, both in Highland Park and at Rouge. My father worked his way through college at Chrysler Jefferson Ave., and his father worked at Chrysler for many years after Hudson [[cars, that is) closed.

But I hear this kind of thing less and less these days, and pretty much never outside of Michigan, unless it's people buying Hondas because they "never give me any trouble." It's even on the decline around here, as people's ties to the auto industry wane. And as incomes continue to stagnate and fall, many people are going to be unwilling or unable to buy a new car anyway. Yet another reason why it seems incredibly short-sighted for "our" auto companies to have moved so much of their production away from American middle-class workers [[and car buyers).

**Fury13** · June-04-09, 10:18 AM

There is a rumor that GM may consider bringing the Pontiac brand back at some point. The Pontiac brand has never been for sale like the Saturn and Hummer brands were.

**Scottr** · June-06-09, 02:40 PM

I've thought that myself, Fury. Obviously, at this point this makes the most sense, as it is a somewhat damaged brand and the capital necessary to bring it back is better spent elsewhere. But 10 years down the road, who can tell? It could come back as a true performance brand, or something else entirely - after the stigma of rebadging has faded and GM is back to profitability. One thing is for certain - it won't be duplicates of vehicles offered elsewhere in the GM lineup.

One other reason I think GM is more attached to Pontiac - its ties to GM go back to 1909 [[as Oakland back then, until Pontiac was introduced as a companion marque in 1926), whereas Saturn, Saab, and Hummer were all added within the past 25 years. Not only does this mean that there is more sentimental attachment, but there is more integration of Pontiac into GM than the other brands. In the end, the only thing Pontiac really has is a name - nothing else. There is little of value for a buyer, and GM probably feels it's worth more as a revived nameplate at some point in the future than as a potential competitor.

That said, GM has stated more recently that it will look at possible offers. I'm going to guess that's mostly due diligence than anything else. If someone offered them a couple billion, I'm sure they'll jump on it. But realistically, they have no interest in selling it.

**jtf1972** · June-06-09, 05:40 PM

I used to love my Pontiacs... Had a 84 Fiero, 69 Firebird, 88 & 89 Grand Prix's, 2 85 Grand Am's, a 88 Bonneville, a 78 Sunbird & a 90 LeMans.

I think my next car will be a Ford Escape Hybrid.

**EMG** · June-06-09, 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by EastsideAl

This was always a more powerful factor in the Detroit ares than elsewhere, for reasons that should be obvious. My father always liked to joke that he and my mother were a "mixed marriage," between a Chrysler family and a Ford family. And, later on, when I started buying Fords, that I had inherited the "Ford gene" from my mother's side of the family.

So the brand loyalty certainly exists in my family, as I can remember my dad driving almost nothing but Chryslers for all of my 50 years. And after my family finally had enough money for two cars, mom always bought Fords. Of course, as it is for so many of us, all of this had its roots in the working history of their families. My mother's father worked at Ford's for over 30 years, both in Highland Park and at Rouge. My father worked his way through college at Chrysler Jefferson Ave., and his father worked at Chrysler for many years after Hudson [[cars, that is) closed.

But I hear this kind of thing less and less these days, and pretty much never outside of Michigan, unless it's people buying Hondas because they "never give me any trouble." It's even on the decline around here, as people's ties to the auto industry wane. And as incomes continue to stagnate and fall, many people are going to be unwilling or unable to buy a new car anyway. Yet another reason why it seems incredibly short-sighted for "our" auto companies to have moved so much of their production away from American middle-class workers [[and car buyers).

I am from a Chrysler family - and worked for Chrysler - and of course drove Chrysler products. Until Chrysler outsourced my job and laid me off in '01. Now I drive a Honda, and just as posted above, it's never given me any trouble. [[Which is more than I can say for any Chrysler I ever drove).

Don't worry about Chrysler. I'm sure they will be able to find several new customers in the countries they sent our jobs to.

**Fury13** · June-06-09, 07:43 PM

Originally Posted by EMG

I am from a Chrysler family - and worked for Chrysler - and of course drove Chrysler products. Until Chrysler outsourced my job and laid me off in '01. Now I drive a Honda, and just as posted above, it's never given me any trouble. [[Which is more than I can say for any Chrysler I ever drove).

Don't worry about Chrysler. I'm sure they will be able to find several new customers in the countries they sent our jobs to.

I'd buy a new Plymouth... oh, wait... dammit...