Detroit Fire official bounced from post.

[kraig]

http://www.freep.com/article/2011092...text|FRONTPAGE

Good. But it's only a start and does nothing to fix the problem.

[shovelhead]

And the problem being what? A lot of no details why Growchowski was demoted. Some hard facts would be nice. The Free Press article leaves more questions than answers at least in my opinion.

From the article it looks like someone needed to take the blame, and Grochowski was it.

[fryar]

Yeah, it's hard to tell with certainty that he isn't just a sacrificial lamb. Maybe he just wasn't up to the position, but was otherwise a good firefighter. Maybe this is part of a bigger problem, but it's easiest just to let him skate with his pension.

[kraig]

And the problem being what? A lot of no details why Growchowski was demoted. Some hard facts would be nice. The Free Press article leaves more questions than answers at least in my opinion.

From the article it looks like someone needed to take the blame, and Grochowski was it.

The problem being that the Fire Department is unprepared. With the amount of in-service training that the firefighters go through, it's ridiculous to have firefighters that aren't certified, or unable, to operate a firehose. No excuses.

[shovelhead]

It takes money to repair apparatus. As the old saying goes, no money, no honey. DFD has been plagued with broken apparatus for years. You can only bubble gum patch things for so long.

According to WDIV this morning, Growchowski oversaw decisions regarding vehicle readiness. Again, you can only do so much without support from upper level management.

He did not become a Battalion Chief by poor performance. And if there was any allegations of wrongdoing or illegal activity on his part he would not be allowed to return to his previous position, he would be at minimum suspended or terminated at maximum. At least in my opinion.

I will admit that I am acquainted to Mr. Growchowski through non department business and my opinion of him as a result has been positive.

[Buy American]

The problem being that the Fire Department is unprepared. With the amount of in-service training that the firefighters go through, it's ridiculous to have firefighters that aren't certified, or unable, to operate a firehose. No excuses.

Unprepared? Whose responsibility is it to prepare the Fire Department...the firefighters? Firefighters go through extensive training before they come on the job. The upper management of the City of Detroit are the ones to blame, not one person. Chief of Fire Operations Growchowski was the scapegoat in this case. When you have firefighters buying their own batteries for their flashlights and buying other necessary equipment at their own expense for their safety, that's a major problem. Detroit needs to step up, take the full blame, and start putting safe, efficient equipment back in the firehouses. Get the money back that thug KK and all of his family, all of his friends and classmates stole from the Detroit taxpayers. That's a start in the right direction.

With all of the corruption still going on inside the walls of City Hall under Bing's administration, I can't understand why one particular, seasoned, firefighter would be demoted. It's obvious that they want him to be blamed for the death of the child.

[kraig]

It takes money to repair apparatus. As the old saying goes, no money, no honey. DFD has been plagued with broken apparatus for years. You can only bubble gum patch things for so long.

According to WDIV this morning, Growchowski oversaw decisions regarding vehicle readiness. Again, you can only do so much without support from upper level management.

He did not become a Battalion Chief by poor performance. And if there was any allegations of wrongdoing or illegal activity on his part he would not be allowed to return to his previous position, he would be at minimum suspended or terminated at maximum. At least in my opinion.

I will admit that I am acquainted to Mr. Growchowski through non department business and my opinion of him as a result has been positive.

I agree, the department has been plagued by lack of money and apparatus issues. Which is probably a good reason to keep working equipment in the places that will be the most useful. I'm also aware that you can only do so much without the support of upper management. However, Mr. Growchoski made some poor decisions in a very short period of time.

[kraig]

Unprepared? Whose responsibility is it to prepare the Fire Department...the firefighters? Firefighters go through extensive training before they come on the job. The upper management of the City of Detroit are the ones to blame, not one person. Chief of Fire Operations Growchowski was the scapegoat in this case. When you have firefighters buying their own batteries for their flashlights and buying other necessary equipment at their own expense for their safety, that's a major problem. Detroit needs to step up, take the full blame, and start putting safe, efficient equipment back in the firehouses. Get the money back that thug KK and all of his family, all of his friends and classmates stole from the Detroit taxpayers. That's a start in the right direction.

With all of the corruption still going on inside the walls of City Hall under Bing's administration, I can't understand why one particular, seasoned, firefighter would be demoted. It's obvious that they want him to be blamed for the death of the child.

Like I said, it's a start. He's not the only one that should be demoted or let go. But, I invite anyone to answer this question.

How can a firefighter not know how to operate a hose?

Any answer that anyone comes up with will lead to an issue that the City needs to address.

[Buy American]

I agree, the department has been plagued by lack of money and apparatus issues. Which is probably a good reason to keep working equipment in the places that will be the most useful. I'm also aware that you can only do so much without the support of upper management. However, Mr. Growchoski made some poor decisions in a very short period of time.

Chief of Fire Operations Growchowski, [[which incidentally, you don't get promoted to on a whim), has been on the job from July to September...hardly enough time to get things up and running the way a real fire department should run. With the outdated, unrepaired, half ass equipment that the City of Detroit supplies its' firefighters, it's any wonder that a garbage fire gets put out.

To answer your question "how can a firefighter not know how to operate a hose?", the firefighter was driving a small pumper truck that was out of commission for pumping water and was only being used to transport firefighters to that scene. Chief Growchowski is a scapegoat for this entire matter. Don't blame the firefighters for the mistakes of Bing and his administration. From thug KK on down, the City has been robbed of funds from the taxpayers and the Feds that would get both Police and Fire up and running like the departments they were meant to be. Police running around using their own cell phones to call in license plates because the communications in the scout car won't work, a fleet of cars sitting in some yard waiting repairs, fire rigs out of service....Detroiters need to pray that there will never be a catastrophic incident in Detroit because there isn't enough equipment cover it.

[kraig]

Chief of Fire Operations Growchowski, [[which incidentally, you don't get promoted to on a whim), has been on the job from July to September...hardly enough time to get things up and running the way a real fire department should run. With the outdated, unrepaired, half ass equipment that the City of Detroit supplies its' firefighters, it's any wonder that a garbage fire gets put out.

To answer your question "how can a firefighter not know how to operate a hose?", the firefighter was driving a small pumper truck that was out of commission for pumping water and was only being used to transport firefighters to that scene. Chief Growchowski is a scapegoat for this entire matter. Don't blame the firefighters for the mistakes of Bing and his administration. From thug KK on down, the City has been robbed of funds from the taxpayers and the Feds that would get both Police and Fire up and running like the departments they were meant to be. Police running around using their own cell phones to call in license plates because the communications in the scout car won't work, a fleet of cars sitting in some yard waiting repairs, fire rigs out of service....Detroiters need to pray that there will never be a catastrophic incident in Detroit because there isn't enough equipment cover it.

Here's the quote from the Fire Commissioner.

"The trucks had the proper equipment, but the problem is the type of truck that showed up first was a tactical truck. It’s a smaller rig used to fight parking structure fires, not house fires, so it doesn’t have a ladder. It has a 300 gallon tank, but the driver was not certified to use it."

I do agree with almost everything you're saying though. But like I said, any answer you look at will tell what the department needs to work on.

[Buy American]

Here's the quote from the Fire Commissioner.

"The trucks had the proper equipment, but the problem is the type of truck that showed up first was a tactical truck. It’s a smaller rig used to fight parking structure fires, not house fires, so it doesn’t have a ladder. It has a 300 gallon tank, but the driver was not certified to use it."

I do agree with almost everything you're saying though. But like I said, any answer you look at will tell what the department needs to work on.

I agree, the department needs to work on many things to get the department up and running correctly...the firefighters are trained and on call to protect and serve the public already. They just need proper equipment to work with...not a squirt gun and a Davy Crocket ax. The key words in the article I read was the truck was out of commission for pumping water. That would mean that the truck was only being used as transportation for firefighters and the contention that the firefighter didn't know how to operate a hose is a moot point since the truck was out of commission.
Also, the Commissioner is someone who was appointed by Bing and doesn't know squat. He also said that "everything worked as it should" at that fire...which we all know wasn't true.

[shovelhead]

kraig,

How can the previously mentioned Fire Commissioner say that a driver [[or engine operator whatever his title may be) can be authorized to drive any piece of apparatus but NOT BE CERTIFIED to operate it? Obviously not "everything worked as it should" either mechanically on the apparatus or policywise by allowing an uncertifed driver/operator of it.

And while I have NO experience working for DFD, I have nine years experience as a volunteer and a paid on call Firefighter/EMT in this state and in a southwestern state. And NO WAY in either of these departments would an UNCERTIFIED person be allowed to operate any any apparatus. It took a minimum Firefighter 1 certification on both departments together with a checkout by a senior officer to be allowed behind the wheel or at the engineer's panel. On the department out west we had to be certified each year on each truck. Not a big deal as we only had three trucks for a city of 10k population.

And are not Fire Commissioners appointed from the citizens of the city, civilians in other words like Police Commissioners?

And to address the statement regarding the truck being a tactical truck and only a 300 gallon tank capacity, I'm calling that statement as B.S. and showing a lack of knowledge of fire apparatus.

ANY fire apparatus regardless of water capacity has the means to be connected to a hydrant, another truck or to be used for "drafting" from a body of water such as a swimming pool, lake, stream or dump tank from either a 2 1/2" or a 5" inlet. I have pumped water from all those sources, the stream being an irrigation channel by use of a hard suction line and a "puddle screen" to keep debris more or less out of the pump.

Any water you can put on a fire is better than no water. Rule of thumb is that the pump has the ability to pump the same gallons per minute water as contained in the tank. In other words, the pump can pump 300 GPM and the tank has a capacity of 300 gallons.

SOP at least on the department out west was a MINIMUM of two persons to a truck regardless of size. The driver served as engineer [[pump operator). Upon arrival at incident hose is pulled by Firefighter. He positions himself while the engineer is putting the truck in pump operation delivering the tank capacity to the pump. Once the truck is pumping the engineer or any additional Firefighters would connect the truck to the nearest water source. Once that is accomplished the line inlet line is charged [[opened) at the source whether it be a hydrant or a pumper. [[Drafting is another subject with a slightly different procedure) At that point you are pumping that incoming water directly on the fire thereby bypassing the tank completely.

And obviously the more manpower at a fireground makes for a easier and safer job for all concerned. And how are the additional Firefighters supposed to get there, take a bus or a taxi?

So the statement by the Fire Commissioner shows that he has a complete lack of knowledge on operation of a fire truck , fireground tactics and has never spent a day actually on the job.

Another conclusion is that I have probably forgotten more on how to be a Firefighter than that "Commissioner"[[?) EVER KNEW.

[george_babbage]

So the statement by the Fire Commissioner shows that he has a complete lack of knowledge on operation of a fire truck , fireground tactics and has never spent a day actually on the job.

Another conclusion is that I have probably forgotten more on how to be a Firefighter than that "Commissioner"[[?) EVER KNEW.

Let's not get carried away shovelhead. This commissioner is not some newbie to the fire service. He has 30-plus-years in L.A. and a solid base of education. I'm quite certain he is properly versed in fire apparatus and tactics. No doubt Chief Grochowski got a raw deal here. He has been a top notch fire fighter at every rank, and he is one of the good ones. Anyone who thinks his demotion is a good thing is crazy.

I am an active member of the DFD and probably know every person who responded to the scene, but even I don't know what happened there. It seems presumptuous for some on this thread to have such hardened opinions. I guarantee everyone there knew how to operate a hose and nobody stood around at that scene with his thumb up his ass.

The reality is Detroit is BROKE. Our fleet is creaking. The repair shop is like a ghost town and the few remaining mechanics can't get parts because Detroit doesn't pay its bills. Every day at least eight of our remaining 66 fire companies are browned out and that number will only go up because several of our rigs are hanging on by a thread and there are no new purchases on the horizon. That's the reality Commissioner Donald Austin, Detroit native, is dealing with. He seems genuinely dedicated to improving service delivery, but there are fiscal constraints.

[kraig]

To Shovelhead and George Babbage. Like I said, any response is going to lead to somehting that needs to be dealt with at the Fire Department. In particular to Babbage, the hardened opinion comes from the fact that a little girl may have been saved if the response had went the way it was supposed to. I understand the frustration that you must feel as a member of the DFD with first hand knowledge of what is going wrong. And I hope you can understand how the public feels to be fed excuse after excuse and spin job after spin job from administration to administration. At this point, excuses are like assholes. Everyone has one and all of them stink.

Maybe it's time for the Union to fight as hard to get proper working equipment. We all know from the abolishment of the residency requirement that the Union can get its way when it needs to.

[rb336]

Wasn't it Austin who made that comment that "everything was done right" or some such stupid thing?

[Carey]

The equipment problem in the DFD goes back years. During the Archer regime, a major fire broke out in a highrise on Pallister near Third, and the first ladder truck on the scene couldn't raise its ladder. A couple of people died, and several were injured in that blaze. The Detroit News did a major investigation and found widespread problems with rigs across the city.

Other media reports and city audits in the past decade repeatedly have found that nothing has changed. Like the DPD, PLD and virtually every other city department, the DFD is starved of money and its management seems sclerotic and dysfunctional. And there is no solution around the corner. Donald Austin is a smart, experienced guy, but after he is gone, the broken rigs will remain.

I was listening to the DFD radio on my iPhone Saturday night and heard that a fire fighter had been injured at a fire, when hot embers fell down his neck. EMS took forever to reach the scene; the battalion chief kept asking for their ETA. That's just crazy, and a shame.

[bobby wobby]

Like I said, it's a start. He's not the only one that should be demoted or let go. But, I invite anyone to answer this question.

How can a firefighter not know how to operate a hose?

Any answer that anyone comes up with will lead to an issue that the City needs to address.

It is amazing that anyone would think Detroit Firefighters couldn't operate a hose ,they are the busiest fire department in the world, the average FF goes to 2 or 3 working fires a shift ,its amazing that they can even stay alive ..But people have no clue to whats going on, and then make a silly statement like that .

[kraig]

It is amazing that anyone would think Detroit Firefighters couldn't operate a hose ,they are the busiest fire department in the world, the average FF goes to 2 or 3 working fires a shift ,its amazing that they can even stay alive ..But people have no clue to whats going on, and then make a silly statement like that .

Hey, I agree with you. It sounds crazy to think that a firefighter can't operate a hose. But, this isn't my assessment, I'm going off the quote by the Fire Commissioner himself. Who, we should all hope, would have some type of expertise.

"The trucks had the proper equipment, but the problem is the type of truck that showed up first was a tactical truck. It’s a smaller rig used to fight parking structure fires, not house fires, so it doesn’t have a ladder. It has a 300 gallon tank, but the driver was not certified to use it."

Like I said, with all of the in-service training that the firefighters go through, there's no way anyone should be responsible for equipment that they can't use during an emergency.

[bobby wobby]

Well ok kraig,the commissioner made the silly statement not you,but its still a silly statement even if he is the commissioner. The reason they used the TAC rig and not their engine was the engine was broke and thats the only rig the city had.The Fire Chief has no control over purchasing or the repair shop, but he gets tossed!

[Detroitej72]

With the budget problems facing the DFD, I'd be surprised if they could afford a bucket brigade to put out fires.

[kraig]

Well ok kraig,the commissioner made the silly statement not you,but its still a silly statement even if he is the commissioner. The reason they used the TAC rig and not their engine was the engine was broke and thats the only rig the city had.The Fire Chief has no control over purchasing or the repair shop, but he gets tossed!

The Fire Chief may have more control than you think when it comes to procuring equipment. If I understand the process correctly, the department, after deciding what equipment it needs, contacts the budget and purchasing departments, in order to get the equipment that's needed. The role of the budget department is to make sure that enough money is in the budget to pruchase the good or service. And the role of purchasing is to solicit and, along with the fire department, compare the bids and select a winning bid. After which, the law department reviews the bid for legalities and the contract is then presented to City Council for its approval.

Now, none of the other departments have the authority to act until the fire department makes its request. So if the department doesn't have equipment simply because it hasn't requested it, it's no one's fault but the fire departments. More to the point, whoever's the top person in charge of overseeing the equipemtn and making sure that everything that's needed at every fire station is there [[seems to me it was probably the responsibility of the guy that just got demoted).



Additionally, the fire department has the authority to solicit and award contracts on its own for contracts that are less than $5,000.00. Which could easily cover smaller items such as flashlights, batteries and etc. So there's really no excuse for not having such items.

And as far as I've been able to tell, the fire department has yet to run a deficit on its equipment budget. So the money is there, it's just a matter of managing things [[requests) better.

[Buy American]

With people like Puke at the helm of Clownsil, fire equipment, rigs, bids, purchasing, law departments, don't mean a thing. Kraig, you make things sound so easy to procure equipment for any department. Sorry, you're way off base on this one.

[kraig]

With people like Puke at the helm of Clownsil, fire equipment, rigs, bids, purchasing, law departments, don't mean a thing. Kraig, you make things sound so easy to procure equipment for any department. Sorry, you're way off base on this one.

I challenge you to produce any record of Council voting no on equipment for the fire department within the last ten years, let alone the 21 months that the current Council has been in place. Excuses like the one you're trying to make are too easy. The fact is,if the department doesn't have the equipment, its because they haven't taken the steps to get it. You're correct, it's not easy. But it is simple and hardly impossible. As you saw from today's news, the department had to be shamed into accepting a $180,000.00 fire truck from a businessman. Initially, they never responded to his offer. They only responded after he told his story to the media. But I guess that's Pugh's fought as well, huh? Weak Buy American, weak. You're better than that.