Suspected Copper Thief Shot Dead In Palmer Park...

[Zacha341]

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/news...lmer-park-area

[Scottathew]

Oh well. Good riddance. Best wishes to his family.

[Bigb23]

These same people show up day after day with scrap [[stolen), copper to a salvage yard, yet we don't call out these operators for what they are.[[fences). Put a digital picture with every purchase of copper and catalytic converters. They know they are stolen, yet they get a bye. Shame on them.

[EastsideAl]

Exactly. Thank you. We cheer in frustration when some poor fool gets shot, because we're just so sick of this destruction of our city, but the real enablers of this activity are the scrap yards who constantly buy, process, and sell material they know damn well is stolen. Not to hold the strippers themselves blameless for their crimes, but if someone in the poorest and highest unemployment city in the country can just pull some copper out of a building and get paid for it, then what the hell do we expect is going to happen?

The worst part of all of this, of course, is that even as their [[I.e. our) own property is being stripped and destroyed, the city, the cops, etc. do absolutely nothing to address the heart of the problem and allow these businesses to profit openly with no consequences at all from criminal activity that hurts all of us.

[Carey]

Scrappers are pests and criminals, sure, but they are only mainfestations of a much larger problem: the growing poverty in our region. This guy should have been prosecuted, as should people who buy the stuff, but it's too bad he had to die.

[DetroitPole]

Even during the times of relative prosperity in the region[[though Detroit gets the short end of the stick on this continually), crime in Detroit was still astronomical. People here are indeed desperately poor, but, not to laud our woefully inadequate social support system, virtually no one is starving. Most of these scrappers even have the means to have automobiles and power tools. Again, not to justify the deep economic inquality here, but rest assured virtually none of these scrappers are doing this to buy a loaf of bread to feed their families.
Even if you shut down the scrap yards buying this stuff, it still has intrinsic value, so a black market would arise anyway. You would have to somehow make copper valueless, but since we've already gone through the copper age, that isn't going to happen.
The worst part about this is the devastating affect on the city. Entire neighborhoods are being permanently wiped out because of these scrappers. Structures go from being simply vacant and waiting for a new owner [[if you're optimistic) to being nothing but dangerous shells overnight. I've said it before and I'll say it again: even a dog doesn't shit in its own crate. These people are worse than that, destroying any possibility of any kind of jobs, investment, or residents coming back to the city by literally dismantling the remaining infrastructure.
I wish these stories somehow could be publisized more to make the scrappers think twice. Ultimately these people are cowards; scavangers; vultures. If they thought their chicken-shit worthless lives were seriously in danger they'd go back to collecting cans and bottles and living off the dole. Many of them never bothered to learn to read so maybe we could take this last guy and impale him on a pike with some copper wire on his hand and leave him there for all to see. I think then, no matter how irretreivably stupid they may be, they would get the message. Your choices and actions have consequences.
We've had formerly beautiful homes in my neighborhood completely destoryed thanks to these people and it could very well mean the end of the neigborhood. No more. If I ever saw one of these guys they're not getting away alive. And a bullet is too good for them. They're going to wish they were never born.

[hamtown mike]

Your choices and actions have consequences.

AMEN!

Long term thinking has very little place in the minds of many. Instead, there is im'me'diate thinking. What's in it for me now?

Scrappers are thinking "There's copper in that building. I have a hacksaw. Soon I'll have money."-for god only knows what. Instead of thinking "Hey, that's a solid building that could one day house a business that I could work for."

Perhaps people have been holding on to that 'one day' for far too long. It would be interesting to see how many who lost their automotive jobs in the 80's that have remained relatively un/underemployed.

[Mackinaw]

Assuming the facts as given are true, the security guard will be prosecuted. Property cannot be defended with deadly force. The guard will have to show that he reasonably believed the copper thief threatened serious bodily harm against him or others. I doubt this is the case.

But yes as a general matter this scrapping crime is absolutely outrageous and even more outrageous is the lack of some law enforcement task force to attack it at its source. Instead, we allow some of our finer neighborhoods where reasonable people still want to live to fall victim to this assault on their property.

Don't shoot at scrappers. Prosecute them and those driving the market.

[bailey]

Not that I'm at all sympathetic to the scrapper, the problem is in Michigan you can not use deadly force to protect property. If you're going to shoot someone, you must be in fear of imminent death or great bodily harm. It will be interesting to see who gets charged with what here.

[[basically +1 to mackinaw...didn't see his response.)

[Bigb23]

I wish these stories somehow could be publisized more to make the scrappers think twice. Ultimately these people are cowards; scavangers; vultures. If they thought their chicken-shit worthless lives were seriously in danger they'd go back to collecting cans and bottles and living off the dole. Many of them never bothered to learn to read so maybe we could take this last guy and impale him on a pike with some copper wire on his hand and leave him there for all to see. I think then, no matter how irretreivably stupid they may be, they would get the message. Your choices and actions have consequences.
We've had formerly beautiful homes in my neighborhood completely destoryed thanks to these people and it could very well mean the end of the neigborhood. No more. If I ever saw one of these guys they're not getting away alive. And a bullet is too good for them. They're going to wish they were never born.

Ouch - dude, you need to tone it down a bit. We all have problems, but use a bit of hubris.

[bartock]

Use a bit of hubris???

[Scottathew]

Ouch - dude, you need to tone it down a bit. We all have problems, but use a bit of hubris.

I don't think so.

These people aren't victims of the economy. They are lazy thieves looking to take from others. Screw them.

I don't wish death on them, but if that becomes of them, oh well. I laugh every time one of these crooks gets electrocuted.

[Carey]

Why don't we draw and quarter scrappers at, say, Campus Martius? That worked for people in 14th-Century Paris. And then, like Detroit Pole suggests, we can leave their body parts on the ground and let the birds and rats pick at them. That will teach people. That taught those thieves and blasphemers in the Middle Ages. Executions of scrappers at Woodward and Michigan will probably bring more people downtown, too. Maybe we can tie it into a Somerset Mall pop-up store experience.

[Mackinaw]

Ohhh yeahh-- and we've got that Lafayette Bldg. site for a great medieval-looking prison. The Detroit Bargello?

[JBMcB]

Even if you shut down the scrap yards buying this stuff, it still has intrinsic value, so a black market would arise anyway. You would have to somehow make copper valueless, but since we've already gone through the copper age, that isn't going to happen.

+1. If you make it illegal to buy scrap copper, scrappers will just melt it down into bars or rods first. The melting point is only around 2000F, you could build a coal-fed forge out of cinderblocks and spare parts that could accomplish this. Forging ain't hard - they were doing it thousands of years ago with dirt, clay and wood.

[Steve bennet]

I don't think so.

These people aren't victims of the economy. They are lazy thieves looking to take from others. Screw them.

I wouldn't really say they are lazy. Scrapping metal is hard work. Stupid maybe, but not lazy.

[iheartthed]

Exactly. Thank you. We cheer in frustration when some poor fool gets shot, because we're just so sick of this destruction of our city, but the real enablers of this activity are the scrap yards who constantly buy, process, and sell material they know damn well is stolen. Not to hold the strippers themselves blameless for their crimes, but if someone in the poorest and highest unemployment city in the country can just pull some copper out of a building and get paid for it, then what the hell do we expect is going to happen?

The worst part of all of this, of course, is that even as their [[I.e. our) own property is being stripped and destroyed, the city, the cops, etc. do absolutely nothing to address the heart of the problem and allow these businesses to profit openly with no consequences at all from criminal activity that hurts all of us.

Some blame also goes to the traders for using precious metals as a hedge against sovereign debt. Those folks are the reason copper is so expensive now. Who even heard of these types of crimes back in the 80s and 90s when copper was cheap? #justsayin'

[Scottathew]

I wouldn't really say they are lazy. Scrapping metal is hard work. Stupid maybe, but not lazy.

Easy. Stealing is the lazy way out. If actually working for a living was easier they would do that. But instead they steal.

Hard work is the single mom that's going to school and working a job to give her family a better life.

[JBMcB]

Some blame also goes to the traders for using precious metals as a hedge against sovereign debt. Those folks are the reason copper is so expensive now. Who even heard of these types of crimes back in the 80s and 90s when copper was cheap? #justsayin'

Copper isn't a precious metal. Copper is going up in price because China and India are building out their electrical grids. Though aluminum is heavily used, copper is still needed in transformers and medium and low voltage applications. Increased demand equals higher prices. Copper production has ramped up incredibly in the last decade, though prices remain high due to the increased demand.

[HistoryNotHisStory]

Copper isn't a precious metal. Copper is going up in price because China and India are building out their electrical grids. Though aluminum is heavily used, copper is still needed in transformers and medium and low voltage applications. Increased demand equals higher prices. Copper production has ramped up incredibly in the last decade, though prices remain high due to the increased demand.

Normally when they price of precious metals goes up, so doe copper and other metals.

[detroitsgwenivere]

Another "recycling facility" has just sprung up on John R just south of 8 mile. The neighbors seem conflicted, because at first they thought it was a place that would take their recycleables [[plastic, glass,etc.) and were happy a new business sprang up that wasn't a used car lot. Then they found out that it's a mini scrap yard, and are treating it like the nail in the coffin for their neighborhood, like there weren't a dozen nails in it already.

Eleven houses have bit the dust on Exeter alone in the last year and a half, six destroyed by scrappers. The street is only 3 blocks long. The blocks on the other side of John R are being slowly dismantled as well.

It seems to me that these places always pop-up in the areas most vulnerable to this sort of activity. The city has to know what's going on, aren't they the ones who approve which businesses go where?
Cuz this just seems to aid them in their long term goals of "shrinking the city" IMHO.

[Bigb23]

Use a bit of hubris???

Pardon my use of Latin, which used to be the language of choice.

[Meddle]

How many scrap yards are there in the city that buy metals?

How many cops are on 'light duty' for whatever reason [[minor injury, illness, etc.) that would like to do something besides push papers for a few days?

Assign the light duty personnel to the scrap yards [[enact a new ordinance if necessary). Every sale gets documented by police - pictures, fingerprints, the whole nine yards. No ID, no sale.

[Richard]

How many scrap yards are there in the city that buy metals?

How many cops are on 'light duty' for whatever reason [[minor injury, illness, etc.) that would like to do something besides push papers for a few days?

Assign the light duty personnel to the scrap yards [[enact a new ordinance if necessary). Every sale gets documented by police - pictures, fingerprints, the whole nine yards. No ID, no sale.

I agree , This has become the norm in other cities, included also is no walk-ins you have to have someone in a vehicle bring you in so the plate can be traced if necessary.

detroitsgwenivere, a functional planning department and city leadership would never allowed that to happen elsewhere because of the exact thing that happened.

[English]

There's so much going on in this thread -- from bringing back drawing/quartering to the use of the word "hubris" -- until I don't even know where to begin to join the conversation.

I will just observe that the scrapper and the shooter are both cogs. Pay no attention to the machine behind the curtain, folks, that instigates both scrapping and shooting. There is no moral high ground here, but these two individuals are still on the surface -- this rabbit hole goes deep, deep, deep...

A man is dead. Another's life will never be the same.

And our grand old city yet remains on life support...