Grosse Pointe Shores to join Macomb County?

[Detroitnerd]

http://detnews.com/article/20110912/METRO01/109120339

In honesty, only one person proposed the idea of all the Pointes merging into one city, perhaps meaning in Macomb County.

Lower taxes! That seems weird to me. After all, we had this debate about Grosse Pointe Schools being "schools of choice" and I recall a number of GP residents proudly declaring that they pay high taxes for excellence in services.

So why the haggling over county taxes? Might it be because GP residents resent having to pay taxes that benefit Wayne County in general? Perhaps the racial makeup is an issue here? [[The article does not mention race.)

And then there's a desire to gerrymander themselves out of a Democratic county. One GPS resident says, "We don't have a voice politically. We have not voted Democrat for years and years and we get dragged in."

This is regionalism in reverse. Or "home rule" run amok. How the hell are we ever going to get a unified city and reinvest in our central city with suburban secessionists salivating over a merger with the boonies?

[iheartthed]

I read that and was pretty confused by that resident's comment about GPS voting differently from the rest of Wayne County. Is she unaware that Macomb votes Democratic as well? If so, then why is the News even bothering to interview a person who is clearly ignorant on such matters?

[noggin]

It goes farther than that. The mayor of Grosse Pointe Park suggested the same thing at their last council meeting. I think there is a large frustration of the Pointes no longer having a government to represent their interests.

For instance, most of the residents use MCCC instead of WCCC yet they are stuck paying taxes for WCCC. The new congressional and state rep districts pretty much make the residents have very little in common with the other parts. Now with the new school choice issue, they can see the result of the lack of representation.

[iheartthed]

It goes farther than that. The mayor of Grosse Pointe Park suggested the same thing at their last council meeting. I think there is a large frustration of the Pointes no longer having a government to represent their interests.

Well, good luck to them. But who exactly do they expect to align with in Macomb County? Other than racially speaking, the demographics in Macomb don't really differ that much from Wayne. When you remove Detroit from the mix Wayne is most likely much more affluent than Macomb. Grosse Pointe Shores will go to Macomb and immediately become the most affluent community in the county by a bit of distance.

[bartock]

http://detnews.com/article/20110912/METRO01/109120339

In honesty, only one person proposed the idea of all the Pointes merging into one city, perhaps meaning in Macomb County.

Lower taxes! That seems weird to me. After all, we had this debate about Grosse Pointe Schools being "schools of choice" and I recall a number of GP residents proudly declaring that they pay high taxes for excellence in services.

So why the haggling over county taxes? Might it be because GP residents resent having to pay taxes that benefit Wayne County in general? Perhaps the racial makeup is an issue here? [[The article does not mention race.)

And then there's a desire to gerrymander themselves out of a Democratic county. One GPS resident says, "We don't have a voice politically. We have not voted Democrat for years and years and we get dragged in."

This is regionalism in reverse. Or "home rule" run amok. How the hell are we ever going to get a unified city and reinvest in our central city with suburban secessionists salivating over a merger with the boonies?

How is this "Home Rule run amok"?

1. Grosse Pointe Shores votes to become a City.

2. More than a year later, it is "discovered" [[no, I don't think this was just discovered) that, because a portion of the now-city is located in Macomb County, the Shores could more to that county.

3. Obviously, the discussion of merging the Pointes - a discussion that's gone on forever - is re-energized by the possibility that a merged Pointes could apply the same law and move to Macomb County, where it seems a disproportionate number of people from the Pointes has been moving to for the past 10 years.

4. Grosse Pointers are OK with paying higher school taxes because they control that money. County taxes are not in the control of Grosse Pointers, and are perceived to be wasted funds. Thus, the lower taxes of Macomb County are more attractive.

5. I don't understand how this is considered suburban secessation from a central city. We are talking about counties here. Though disproportionately so, the lack of county funds from Pointe residents will be SOMEWHAT offset by the reduction in area and people to provide services to, etc.

6. The race thing...not sure about that. 2/3 of Wayne County is not Detroit, and a big majority of that 2/3 is white. Granted, 90% of Macomb is white, but I think it has more to do with perhaps classism and certainly #3, above. If this was really about race, something would have been done a long time ago. I think that, after years and years and years of holding on, the Shores is doing what it has known it could do...become a city and move to Macomb County. The discussion obviously re-ignites the Pointe's consolidation considerations.

From a regional perspective, Grosse Pointe was never Detroit, and if it moves to Macomb County, the "Tri-County" area is still the Tri-County area.

[bailey]

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd
http://detnews.com/article/20110912/METRO01/109120339

In honesty, only one person proposed the idea of all the Pointes merging into one city, perhaps meaning in Macomb County.

Lower taxes! That seems weird to me. After all, we had this debate about Grosse Pointe Schools being "schools of choice" and I recall a number of GP residents proudly declaring that they pay high taxes for excellence in services.

So why the haggling over county taxes? Might it be because GP residents resent having to pay taxes that benefit Wayne County in general? Perhaps the racial makeup is an issue here? [[The article does not mention race.)

And then there's a desire to gerrymander themselves out of a Democratic county. One GPS resident says, "We don't have a voice politically. We have not voted Democrat for years and years and we get dragged in."

This is regionalism in reverse. Or "home rule" run amok. How the hell are we ever going to get a unified city and reinvest in our central city with suburban secessionists salivating over a merger with the boonies?

How is this "Home Rule run amok"?

1. Grosse Pointe Shores votes to become a City.

2. More than a year later, it is "discovered" [[no, I don't think this was just discovered) that, because a portion of the now-city is located in Macomb County, the Shores could more to that county.

3. Obviously, the discussion of merging the Pointes - a discussion that's gone on forever - is re-energized by the possibility that a merged Pointes could apply the same law and move to Macomb County, where it seems a disproportionate number of people from the Pointes has been moving to for the past 10 years.

4. Grosse Pointers are OK with paying higher school taxes because they control that money. County taxes are not in the control of Grosse Pointers, and are perceived to be wasted funds. Thus, the lower taxes of Macomb County are more attractive.

5. I don't understand how this is considered suburban secessation from a central city. We are talking about counties here. Though disproportionately so, the lack of county funds from Pointe residents will be SOMEWHAT offset by the reduction in area and people to provide services to, etc.

6. The race thing...not sure about that. 2/3 of Wayne County is not Detroit, and a big majority of that 2/3 is white. Granted, 90% of Macomb is white, but I think it has more to do with perhaps classism and certainly #3, above. If this was really about race, something would have been done a long time ago. I think that, after years and years and years of holding on, the Shores is doing what it has known it could do...become a city and move to Macomb County. The discussion obviously re-ignites the Pointe's consolidation considerations.

From a regional perspective, Grosse Pointe was never Detroit, and if it moves to Macomb County, the "Tri-County" area is still the Tri-County area.

it's clearly just racist grosse pointers being racists. no need for your " facts" or "logical explanations".

[Detroitnerd]

it's clearly just racist grosse pointers being racists. no need for your " facts" or "logical explanations".

Ah, Bailey. This is called "starting a discussion." We already know your propensity for trying to end them...

[Gistok]

This seems like a "shit or get off the pot" issue as far as the idea of merging the 5 Pointes. The Shores are the only way of leaving Wayne County... so if they go alone, the others no longer have an option to leave... unless they merge first.

Noggin... actually do very many Grosse Pointe residents use either MCCC or WCCC? I would think that most would go to 4 year universities.

DetroitNerd... you equate secession from Wayne County with somehow leaving Detroit. Detroit will always be right next door to the Grosse Pointes, regardless of which county they're in. However, I do see this as a blow to Wayne County... that's true.

Now granted this would be a coup for Macomb County... since it would give them a nice group of wealthy enclaves incorporated into that county.

But I wonder if part of the issue isn't property values, and the general decline of the far east side. The far eastern part of Detroit adjacent to the Grosse Pointes [[the 48224 zip code) were a steady middle class neighborhood, which in the last 2 years has taken a steady spiral downward... with houses in that area going for as little as $5,000. Back when the area was a "Copper Canyon" neighborhood with lots of Detroit Police and Fire people living there, home values were over $100,000 for some areas of that zip code, and neighborhoods were relatively safe. But all that is changing with most home sales becoming rental property... the area has started to appear seedy and what was once a solid neighborhood of homes with no missing gaps of torn down houses is now starting its' slide to look like "emptier" parts of Detroit that abut Grosse Pointe Park.

Although I wouldn't want them to leave Wayne County... I certainly can understand why they would want to do so...

[bartock]

Gistok - Macomb County Circuit Court versus Wayne County Circuit Court.

[bailey]

Ah, Bailey. This is called "starting a discussion." We already know your propensity for trying to end them...

and we know you're propensity for trolling anytime GP is discussed. I mean...what possible discussion are you trying to "begin" with comments so clearly divorced facts or simple logic like those made above? "home rule run amok" because a city that straddles two counties, by law, has a choice on which county it is part of? " regionalism in reverse"..again because a city that feels it's not represented in one county is choosing to discuss a different alignment? I noticed you addressed none of the points bartock raised....as expected. so flame away.... it's your standard operating procedure.

[Gistok]

Gistok - Macomb County Circuit Court versus Wayne County Circuit Court.

Yes... that is an issue as well. I've always wondered about the northern tip [[Gaukler Point) of Grosse Pointe Shores that lies within Macomb County. When Eleanor Clay Ford died, her mansion and estate were handled thru Macomb County Probate. So I assume that Macomb County already has jurisdiction in tax, probate and possibly even civil court matters over the 60 or so people living in that small part of Grosse Pointe Shores.

The folks in Grosse Pointe Shores government have to be aware of the tax rates and services that those select few are getting, and comparing them to the rest of the city. That must not sit well with some of them.

[Detroitnerd]

DetroitNerd... you equate secession from Wayne County with somehow leaving Detroit. Detroit will always be right next door to the Grosse Pointes, regardless of which county they're in. However, I do see this as a blow to Wayne County... that's true.

Not equating those things. However, when cities that abut the central city want to merge with the most exurban county, don't you think it's fair to say the forces at play are the very forces that threaten real regionalism?

I do think it's interesting that "home rule" has been used for decades as a way to block the growth of the city [["How DARE it expand and harness OUR tax monies!"), but, in this instance, home rule is proposed as a tool to shift a city -- or an entire string of cities -- out of what is perceived to be the most urban county.

[Detroitnerd]

and we know you're propensity for trolling anytime GP is discussed.

That is a damn lie. Trolling is the deliberate posting of unconstructive and inflammatory remarks designed to draw people into arguments and derail thoughtful discussion. In short, that is what you are doing right now.

I mean...what possible discussion are you trying to "begin" with comments so clearly divorced facts or simple logic like those made above? "home rule run amok" because a city that straddles two counties, by law, has a choice on which county it is part of? " regionalism in reverse"..again because a city that feels it's not represented in one county is choosing to discuss a different alignment? I noticed you addressed none of the points bartock raised....as expected. so flame away.... it's your standard operating procedure.

No, why don't you READ away. We are having a discussion here. I'm afraid we'll have to rely upon you for hurt and huffy remarks that try to engender a rhetorical free-for-all. Class act, Bailey. Class act.

[Novine]

Is there really a desire among residents of the Pointes to merge into a single city?

[Detroitnerd]

Is there really a desire among residents of the Pointes to merge into a single city?

I'm thinking no, but that one of the secessionists would like to merge them so they can then all secede together. Wishful thinking perhaps?

[Gistok]

Is there really a desire among residents of the Pointes to merge into a single city?

I concur that there isn't really a desire... but could the secession argument change their minds? I don't know. But if GPS goes it alone, the window of opportunity will be closing fast for the rest of them. It may not be an issue right now... but it will make all Grosse Pointers think about which they would prefer... 5 identities [[4 or 5 in Wayne County), or 1 identity in Macomb County.

[bartock]

Is there really a desire among residents of the Pointes to merge into a single city?

I'm with the "shit or get off the pot" theory raised by Gistok. It would be interesting to see how that would play out; I doubt the other four would necessarily all agree to merge [[for example, Grosse Pointe Park staying put, Grosse Pointe Farms agreeing to merge).

[Jimaz]

The northern tip of [Grosse Pointe Shores] sits in Macomb County ...

How did that come to be? What's the history? Does Grosse Pointe Shores predate the county line? Sincerely.

[ferntruth]

[QUOTE=Detroitnerd;272086]http://detnews.com/article/20110912/METRO01/109120339

In honesty, only one person proposed the idea of all the Pointes merging into one city, perhaps meaning in Macomb County.

Lower taxes! That seems weird to me. After all, we had this debate about Grosse Pointe Schools being "schools of choice" and I recall a number of GP residents proudly declaring that they pay high taxes for excellence in services.

So why the haggling over county taxes? Might it be because GP residents resent having to pay taxes that benefit Wayne County in general? Perhaps the racial makeup is an issue here? [[The article does not mention race.)

And then there's a desire to gerrymander themselves out of a Democratic county. One GPS resident says, "We don't have a voice politically. We have not voted Democrat for years and years and we get dragged in."

This is regionalism in reverse. Or "home rule" run amok. How the hell are we ever going to get a unified city and reinvest in our central city with suburban secessionists salivating over a merger with the boonies?[/QUOTE]

[[1) Your premise assumes that a central city is the desired outcome. As you know, there are plenty of folks in the suburbs who would disagree with that being the ultimate goal. In the interest of full disclosure, I live in Ferndale and would scream bloody murder if the suggestion was ever made that we merge with Detroit. Like it or not, home rule is the reality we live with.

[[2) Macomb country may have outlying parts, but the county as a whole is hardly "the boonies". Wayne county stretches far and wide, would you consider it the boonies as well?

[Goose]

I think the issue is being brought to the forefront mainly due to the redisctricting of the Grosse Pointe communities into two seperate congressional districts, thus further diluting what [[if any), these communities have in legislative matters...

seems like all the people who typically dislike GP its residents would be glad to see them gone from the precious Wayne County... but that doesn't appear the case from the comments....

[eastland]

How did that come to be? What's the history? Does Grosse Pointe Shores predate the county line? Sincerely.

No, Wayne County used to extend all the way to Chicago.
The Macomb County portion was Lake Township while the Wayne County portion was Grosse Pointe Township up until a few years ago.

[Detroitnerd]

http://detnews.com/article/20110912/METRO01/109120339

In honesty, only one person proposed the idea of all the Pointes merging into one city, perhaps meaning in Macomb County.

Lower taxes! That seems weird to me. After all, we had this debate about Grosse Pointe Schools being "schools of choice" and I recall a number of GP residents proudly declaring that they pay high taxes for excellence in services.

So why the haggling over county taxes? Might it be because GP residents resent having to pay taxes that benefit Wayne County in general? Perhaps the racial makeup is an issue here? [[The article does not mention race.)

And then there's a desire to gerrymander themselves out of a Democratic county. One GPS resident says, "We don't have a voice politically. We have not voted Democrat for years and years and we get dragged in."

This is regionalism in reverse. Or "home rule" run amok. [B]How the hell are we ever going to get a unified city and reinvest in our central city with suburban secessionists salivating over a merger with the boonies?

[[1) Your premise assumes that a central city is the desired outcome. As you know, there are plenty of folks in the suburbs who would disagree with that being the ultimate goal. In the interest of full disclosure, I live in Ferndale and would scream bloody murder if the suggestion was ever made that we merge with Detroit. Like it or not, home rule is the reality we live with.

[[2) Macomb country may have outlying parts, but the county as a whole is hardly "the boonies". Wayne county stretches far and wide, would you consider it the boonies as well?

My premise assumes nothing. I am speaking to those who do desire regionalism. If you don't desire regionalism, this is likely a victory for you.

"Home rule" has been a defensive tool used first by inner-ring suburbs to protect against annexation by Detroit, then by middle-ring suburbs to protect against annexation by inner-ring suburbs, then by outer-ring suburbs to protect against annexation by middle-ring suburbs.

What hath it wrought? One of the most politically divided regions in the United States, one of the most expensive regions to administrate thanks to duplication of fire, police, inspection, administration, zoning boards, school boards, etc. And the bill is coming due now for this crazy quilt of more than 100 different competing governments running low on cash. With rising fuel prices, rising materials costs, changing lifestyle choices and other pressing concerns, it's not just the city that's in trouble anymore. We're all in this together, like it or not. And that's where regional vision comes in. It doesn't have to be as sweeping as creating a super-city, but I do think much good would come from something that drastic. We need to harness the region's revenues to engage in intelligent retrenchment and city-building, and it can be done while retaining good suburban environments. As for the exurbs, maybe not.

Macomb County is the boonies to me, and not development-wise. I have had relatives in Macomb County, I have traveled throughout Macomb County, and, at the risk of offending some Macombers, I believe it is safe to say that of the four or five counties in the region, Macomb County is the ultimate bastion of seven-lane roads, left-turn lights, rigid mile roads, broad-brush zoning, cheap chain restaurants, and drive-thru service. When the most walkable city in your county is Mount Clemens, you may be a bit behind the times...

[Detroitnerd]

I think the issue is being brought to the forefront mainly due to the redisctricting of the Grosse Pointe communities into two seperate congressional districts, thus further diluting what [[if any), these communities have in legislative matters...

seems like all the people who typically dislike GP its residents would be glad to see them gone from the precious Wayne County... but that doesn't appear the case from the comments....

It's not as simple as "disliking GPers," though it's pretty handy to mischaracterize people interested in knitting the region together as "haters." Anyway, if the Pointes were to merge with Macomb, I would predict some buyer's remorse a few decades down the line...

[Patrick]

Anyone here actually live in GPS so we can get an opinion from an actual resident?

[bartock]

Anyone here actually live in GPS so we can get an opinion from an actual resident?

not likely...