National Health Care Discussion

[turkeycall]

The Detroit Free Press, May 29, 2009, page 10A, "Business Headlines":
"The average American family who buys health insurance pays an additional $1,017 a year in premiums to subsidize health care for the uninsured, a new report released Thursday says.

This hidden tax, as the FamilyUSA report calls it, adds $368 a year to the bill for a single person buying insurance.

Nationwide, 45.7 million people, including 1.2 million in Michigan, are uninsured. The problem will grow this year, state and federal officials say, as more people lose jobs and workplace health insurance."

A member of this forum has maintained that socialism [collectivism?] in any form takes away human liberties and is degrading to individuals. There may be some philosophical merit to his argument.

However, how degrading and humiliating it must be for a person with a medical condition, but no insurance and no way to pay for treatment, to present himself at a hospital just because the law says they cannot be turned away. Wouldn't it be better for all citizens to be able to walk into a doctor's office or hospital and present his National Health Care Identification Card as coverage for services rendered? Just think, good health care for all, no matter one's income or social status.

Hospitals are laying-off staff because of the cost of the "charity cases" they are required to handle. Of course, charity cases are only one piece of the big picture. But charity cases must take a hefty bite out of a hospital's profit pie.

If I have privately purchased helth insurance and I'm paying extra for the uninsured, why not just have a Universal Health Care System for all?

HR 676 [Expanded Medicare to Cover All Persons] is in a House Committe now for consideration. S 703 [American Health Security Act of 2009] has been introduced in the Senate.

Google those two bills, read them over, then offer constructive opinions and criticism without accusing others of being socialists, collectivists, communists, hard-hearted, greedy, stingy, self-centered, self-righteous, self-absorbed, elitist, or reminding everyone of the failed policies of the liberals or conservatives, the left wing whackos or the conservative wing-nuts. This may be a good, ongoing discussion.

[Stosh]

The Senate bill S 703 sounds good in principle, until you get to the point of the income tax, of 2.2 percent. $40,000 income will pay 880 dollars. Not much, but it's going to cause trouble for some people. I'd sooner see a sales tax, at a proportionate rate, to spread the burden across all Americans.

[Johnnny5]

There's only one reason the U.S does not have a nationalized health care system.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Je7MqES4Wfk

[mjs]

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-676

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s111-703

For anyone thats interested, there's an icon on the right that allows you to get e-mail updates as these bills move through Congress.

[mjs]

Our own Debbie Stabenow is on the Senate subcommittee dealing with this.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/committee.xpd?id=SSFI10

[oladub]

I heard President Obama last week say something that I agreed with. He said that our country is broke and even went on to mention how underfunded Social Security and especially Medicare are. I figured someone had slipped him a red pill or some Ron Paul supporters had been messing with his teleprompter . Anyway, I was so inspired by President Obama's honesty that I joined up with my local Obama support group so I am now on a mailing list. I received the following marching orders from my cadre,

“oladub, I need your voice on health care [[skipping to the marching order part)

Remember this date: Saturday, June 6th, 2009. We will look back on that day as the moment when the fight for real health care reform began in your neighborhood -- perhaps even in your own living room.

On June 6th, in thousands of homes across the country, we'll gather to launch our grassroots campaign for health care. We'll watch a special message from the President. We'll build the teams and draw up the plans for winning health care reform the same way we won the election: Building support one block, one neighbor, one conversation at a time. And we'll put those plans into action.

These kickoffs are so crucial that President Obama will join confirmed hosts and attendees on a live conference call.

Join my call: Ask Congress to pass real health care reform in 2009. [[link provided)

After adding your name, please consider sharing your personal story about the importance of health care reform in your life and the lives of those you love.

I will be personally reviewing many of these signatures and stories. If you speak up now, your voice will make a difference. [[example story provided)

Please add your name to join my call. Then share your personal story about why you too will not rest until this job is done.

Last November, the American people sent Washington a clear mandate for change. But when the polls close, the true work of citizenship begins. That's what Organizing for America is all about. Now, in these crucial moments, your voice once again has extraordinary power. I'm counting on you to use it.

Please sign up today to host or attend a kickoff near you.

Thank you, President Barack Obama�

I am glad that my cadre will be reviewing my story before he submits it to the newspaper. That way it will be fair and balanced. Here is a copy of my letter as sent to my cadre leader per instructions.

“Dammit, every time I go to the doctor it costs too much. When he applied some liquid nitrogen to the tip of my ear it was called an 'operation' and I was charged over $400. I have to argue with my insurance company over almost everything. I am sick of this. If you too are sick of insurance companies and expensive medical bill , I encourage you to support the President's Health Care solution.

President Obama has promised a health care system that everyone will like. It keeps the lawyers involved and will expand the roll of the insurance companies to provide insurance for everyone. This in turn will create more jobs for administrators. The Health insurance companies deserve this profitable expansion of their industry. After all, they have contributed very generously to the likes of McCain, Hillary, Senator Dodd , and the President. This coverage might eventually cover those workers who are now technically illegal immigrants once the immigration issue is normalized. Then we wouldn't have to close down any more border state hospitals overwhelmed with providing free services to non-citizens.

Some people worry about money. Get over it. Just because, as President Obama told us, the country doesn't have any money doesn't mean we can't raise taxes and print more money to cover the difference. In fact, Democrats are floating a few ideas about how to finance expanding the costs of medical care. Among these ideas are a) using some of the middle class cap and trade carbon taxes, b)instituting a federal sales [[VAT) tax, c) confiscating IRA and 401k money, and d) taxing employer donations to the existing medical health plans. The latter is the most likely option if the unions will only quit their crabbing.

And if greedy doctors don't like it, they can retire or go practice in Canada. ha,ha, ha! Who needs them? Ha, ha, ha! After all, he lawyers and insurance companies get full coverage! oladub"

[ghettopalmetto]

Oladub, there's about five different issues discussed in your post above. If you're discussing health care, can you stick to that one issue, and perhaps clarify your position a bit? It's entirely incomprehensible as you've written it.

[Stosh]

Incomprehensible is right. Must have gotten the lines of communication crossed from Rush's redoubt. While I am skeptical of the funding mechanisms involved with this, I'm fully supportive of the effort. Maybe once the mental health and drug treatment coverages kick in, we'll have less homeless around as well.

[mjs]

Oladub, you're hilarious. Beat that got passed around the DNC offices. But, on a more serious note.

Nationalized Health Care has trade offs.

1. Fewer people will die from health issues.
2. More people will participate in Preventive Care and Early Treatment. This reduces suffering and saves money.
3. Taxes will go up. If you want more, you must pay more. Thats life.
4. Employer Costs will go down. This favors employers that treat employees humanely and improves competitiveness.
5. Employer savings will be transferred to Employees. This will help offset the tax increase.
6. Those currently covered will pay more overall. The subsidy for the uninsured has to come from somewhere.

In essence, I can live with it because #1 and #2 justifies #6 and because the current system is obviously ineffective. We spend way too much GDP for the results we get.

[oladub]

Oladub, there's about five different issues discussed in your post above. If you're discussing health care, can you stick to that one issue, and perhaps clarify your position a bit? It's entirely incomprehensible as you've written it.

ghettopalmetto, I reviewed my letter and have to reluctantly agree with you. President Obama says we are broke and then decides to roll out a huge new spending program. Ok, so that' s a little incomprehensible. I suggest you ignore that detail. If we all just hope, believe, and click our heals twice, everything will work out. [[Yes, we can!)

Stosh, " While I am skeptical of the funding mechanisms involved with this, I'm fully supportive of the effort."

Don't worry about the funding mechanism. When I max out my credit card, I just get another one. If I can do that so can the government and the government has its own printing press and can even bill our children. Weeee! See how easy deficit financing is? Support the effort! Grandchildren will take care of the details.

mjs, "Be t that got passed around the DNC offices. "Nationalized Health Care has t..."

Scrreeeech. Stop right there. Much of the first part of my post was actually from my cadre leader at mybarackobama.com . I don't have enough imagination to make that kind of good stuff up. My preference though would be for each state to have its own health care plan as Massachusetts. Canadian provinces each run their own health care programs too. Even the most populated Scandanavian country has fewer people than Michigan so, 10th Amendment aside, why sift our tax money though hands in Washington D.C. before we get to use it here?

ss, "I disagree with #6. There is no proof of that. Other countries provide better health care with less costs - why can't we?"

We can. We can. "Yes, we can". Just say it! We just have to get rid of the lawyers, insurance companies, and most of the administrators like Canada has as well as some regulations to allow us to be treated like adults making our own choices when we order medicine. Unfortunately, a single payer universal system, if that is what you want, was what Dennis Kucinich wanted but not what President Obama is offering.

[Linda from Detroit]

If the health care system that Mr Obama wants us to have is anywhere near like the VA system, watch out. My husband was diagnosed with bladder cancer in April, 2008...that was after years of endless bladder problems that they ignored. He is waiting to have his bladder removed now as their treatments [[after all that delay) have not worked. The first surgery date was scheduled for March. It has been repeatedly cancelled. I spoke with the urology nurse just yesterday and all she could tell me is "Gee, I know it's important that he has the surgery, but we have NO IDEA when it will be." Is that the kind of care you want, folks? If not, then don't trust the government sticking their nose in your health care. Years ago, he had a problem and they operated on the wrong body part. Yes, you heard that correctly. It was so bad the VA finally had to authorize him going to a private physician to correct the mess they made. Again, is this sort of thing what you want for your family? They deny him pain medication, certain heart and muscle medications...it never ends. Maybe they want to be like Scrooge and decrease the surplus population.

[ccbatson]

Way too myopic...some huge principles are at play here:

The existing socialized medicine system [[Medicare and Medicaid) is in decline towards bankruptcy and in debt to a degree that is not recoverable from. Progressive cuts in service and increase in taxation are inevitable to keep it alive. The estimated libaility is over 60 Trillion over the next 25 years....Any reform, even dramatic reform [[let's say a 90 percent cut in costs...which will never happen) would not be enough.

Unless socialized medicine is phased out [[not expanded) we are heading for a tiered system [[within 20 years) where it will become necessary to go to a black market to get any services...in other words, not just for the rich. There is not the political will to phase down any entitlements, particularly the big ones, so, like it or not, we are going there one way or the other.

[Blarf]

I don't support nationalized health care.

But at the very least, health care should be treated the same as public education. Basic shitty service for everyone. Those who can afford it are free to pay for their superior insurance plans.

In the case of those who would use the nationalized branch, even shitty medical care is better than nothing at all. My parents couldn't afford private school for me, so I had to settle for the public one. It happens.

[ccbatson]

We have basic services for everyone now. Expanding beyond that amplifies the problem.

BTW, Public schools should be privatized as well.

[mjs]

If I wrote like you, I'd also think public education should be eliminated.

[ccbatson]

On a chat board? How do you know I didn't go to private school? [[I did actually). Must stink to be wrong all of the time MJS.

[mjs]

So, Mr Private school, explain to me the purpose of using parenthesis in you last post.
Please, tell us what school you attended.

[Blarf]

We have basic services for everyone now.

No we don't.

[ccbatson]

Basic services meaning emergency care...yes it is in place, by law, it must be provided to anyone [[even illegal aliens) presenting in need of said services to an emergency department. Might a bill appear afterward? If it doesn't, it should.