uncover old rivers in detroit

[szla]

There has been talk of downsizing and farming and more parks throughout the city's land and unearthing old rivers that used to flow through the city, but are there any groups that are working on unearthing the old rivers. Baby creek, Connor's creek and a few others seem likely and easy [[so to speak). I lived for about 20 years in Old Redford and felt that the Rouge branch that wound it's way throughout NW Detroit had tremendous potential for development. There were some rather substantial drops in elevation in relatively or potential midddle class area which could look real cool. There were some people on Cooley street south of Grand River that had terraced their property beautifully. The backyard was the terrace. The area around Lyndon and Outer Drive in Brightmoor that had some real drops in elevation. I always thought they could damn it form a lake with a waterfall and let it flow into the Rouge about 1/2 mile away. There would be a road around the lake which would be a major road in Brighmoor which would be a lake district. Any groups working on earthing old rivers?

[detroitsgwenivere]

Here's one:

http://www.michiganrivernews.com/201...d-development/

This is so f***in awesome, I hope this really happens. It gives me a lot of hope for good and creative planning efforts in the future.

[mikefmich]

Here's one:

http://www.michiganrivernews.com/201...d-development/

This is so f***in awesome, I hope this really happens. It gives me a lot of hope for good and creative planning efforts in the future.

I would pray I could live long enough to see that to completion......and still know what I was looking at.

[DetroitPlanner]

There is a lot of potential for improving drainage and saving money by implementing many of the water management techniques proposed by the orginal poster. This is known as green infastructure and is being proposed to manage stormwaters so that less pollutants from the bad sewers get mixed into the stormwater. This leads to the closure of places like Blossom Heath Beach and Metro Beach. DSWD and SEMCOG are taking the lead on planning and implementing this.

[Parkguy]

I'm all for it. There was an environmental plan prepared for the city a few years ago. Find it here:
http://www.dwsd.org/downloads_n/abou...of_Detroit.pdf

The report has a map of all of the native streams in the city-- there are quite a few! I'm all for opening them up. I wonder if they could create some lakes, especially on the east side. That would be a great use for some of the many square miles of abandoned blocks.

[Detroitnerd]

I like the idea and I think it's cool, but ... does it bother anybody that we're proposing a $1 billion project to benefit the environment -- instead of $1 billion to aid the hopeless and needy that live in that environment?

[SWMAP]

There wil always be poor people. If we always turn money from infrastructure to support the poor, nothing else will get done. Millions and billions of dollars in my lifetime to change things for the poor - from the War on Poverty that was unwinnable to now - there are still plenty of poor people living in dysfunctional situations with no employment skills and no good future in Detroit.

I don't know what the solution is - but i just know that there will always be poor people who need money.

[JBMcB]

I like the idea and I think it's cool, but ... does it bother anybody that we're proposing a $1 billion project to benefit the environment -- instead of $1 billion to aid the hopeless and needy that live in that environment?

+1000. The city cannot provide basic city services reliably. It's hugely in debt. Building some scenic river areas is a nice idea, but there are much, *MUCH* more pressing things to be spending money on.

[Detroitnerd]

There wil always be poor people. If we always turn money from infrastructure to support the poor, nothing else will get done. Millions and billions of dollars in my lifetime to change things for the poor - from the War on Poverty that was unwinnable to now - there are still plenty of poor people living in dysfunctional situations with no employment skills and no good future in Detroit.

I don't know what the solution is - but i just know that there will always be poor people who need money.

I'm just blue-skying here, but after-school programs, sports leagues, tutoring, mentoring, fresh food assistance, a clothing allowance ... all things that could ameliorate the worst things in these environments for those who want help. Or perhaps just ensuring the streetlights came on at night, or that police responded when called. Those would all be helpful. Or just leave the misery in situ and feel pleased because "a river runs through it"?

[SWMAP]

Fow what its worth, I don't think anyone envisions the City of Detroit paying for such a project. It would be grants, Federal funds etc. Perhaps you are still opposed because that money could be spent on the poor in the programs you envision.

The concept is called "daylighting." It can make a tremendous impact on the quality of city life. pPrhaps such a thing happening to Parent's creek would dramatically change the mood and aspirations of the east side. Living in a humane place rather than a dump can make a tremendous impression on the human heart.

Something similar happened in Seoul when it uncovered a waterway that had been a sewer for many years:

"But four years after the stream was uncovered, city officials say, the environmental benefits can now be quantified. Data show that the ecosystem along the Cheonggyecheon [[pronounced chung-gye-chun) has been greatly enriched, with the number of fish species increasing to 25 from 4. Bird species have multiplied to 36 from 6, and insect species to 192 from 15.
The recovery project, which removed three miles of elevated highway as well, also substantially cut air pollution from cars along the corridor and reduced air temperatures. Small-particle air pollution along the corridor dropped to 48 micrograms per cubic meter from 74, and summer temperatures are now often five degrees cooler than those of nearby areas, according to data cited by city officials.
And even with the loss of some vehicle lanes, traffic speeds have picked up because of related transportation changes like expanded bus service, restrictions on cars and higher parking fees.
“We’ve basically gone from a car-oriented city to a human-oriented city,” said Lee In-keun, Seoul’s assistant mayor for infrastructure, who has been invited to places as distant as Los Angeles to describe the project to other urban planners.
Some 90,000 pedestrians visit the stream banks on an average day."

From a NYT article "Peeling Back Pavement to Uncover Watery Havens" 7/16/2009

[Detroitnerd]

"The concept is called 'daylighting.' It can make a tremendous impact on the quality of city life."

Sigh ...

[detroitsgwenivere]

The article states that the the first 450k will come from Kresge. Kresge already contributes substantially to programs for the poor. If they want to spend their money on infrastructure instead of paying the city's light bill, that's their perogative. I feel confident that they will continue to partially fund this project pending on it's incremental success. Lord knows they have no problem throwing their money around in Corktown.

[Detroitnerd]

The first $450,000 of $1,000,000,000? I find it hard to take anybody seriously who's making a .045 percent down payment on a plan that will benefit bugs and frogs more than living people.

[JBMcB]

It would be grants, Federal funds etc.

Oh, well that's just fine then. As we all know, federal money flows from heaven like manna, and will always and ever be increasing to cover every huge public works project city leaders deem fashionable at the time.

Seriously? Our bridges are falling apart. The sewer system is imploding, literally. Fire engines and ambulances are falling apart. Schools are awful in nearly every aspect. The roads are awful. What little mass transit there is is falling apart. The city can't manage to shut off a wildly unpopular incinerator as it seems it can't find what else to do with it's trash.

$1 Billion for unnecessary drainage system re-engineering? Why not! It'll look pretty!

[eastland]

$1 Billion for unnecessary drainage system re-engineering? Why not! It'll look pretty![/QUOTE]

Most of these drains/streams/creeks were covered in the first place because of health reasons -- check out the Milk River/Black Marsh/Fox Creek hall of fame thread

[SWMAP]

The River Walk in San Antonio is an uncovered restored waterway, once a sewer.

In Brooklyn, the Gowanus Canal is being uncovered and restored:
"Artists and small businesses priced out of other neighborhoods have been taking up residence in the old warehouses. Nightclubs have popped up on streets that taxi repair shops and truck depots once dominated. Restaurants, bars and bakeries have all moved in, creating a scene that longtime Brooklyn residents compare to Dumbo before the multimillion-dollar lofts and Williamsburg before Bedford Avenue became a destination.
The Gowanus neighborhood finds itself at a crossroads, with an opportunity to think afresh about the best way to develop postindustrial land.
“Superfund provided a much-needed pause in the headlong rush to develop the area,” said David Briggs, an architect and a founder of Gowanus by Design, a group created, according to its mission statement, in “reaction to significant community concerns with the planning process in the Brooklyn neighborhoods around the Gowanus Canal.”
“There is a place here, a special place that died and was left a terrible mess,” Mr. Briggs said. “It is now going to go through a long-term rebirth. It needs to be developed as a divergent, rich, textured community.”

[detroitsgwenivere]

Yeah, when you put the numbers into perspective, it is a small start. The planning and funding procurement efforts can be expensive and time consuming, and the money allocated will probably only cover that portion. But Kresge likes to invest in sustainability projects and probably believes that the long term benefits will outweight the short term costs, even if it's a billion dollars of other peoples money.

I will be speaking with reps from Kresge about another project in the near future, and i will inquire as to who the lead is regarding the financing, and what their future funding parameters are.

Who or what benefits from this more is a matter of opinion. But I do wonder why this digging project would cost a bill. Seems kinda high to me...

[Detroitnerd]

To compare Bloody Run to the Gowanus system of canals is to compare apples and oranges. You used to walk through the Gowanus Canals and it would stink to high heaven. But all they had to do was flush them out, not appropriate $1 billion to uncover them, disconnect them from a sewer-storm system, landscape them and create a park for them.

If you want to save a watershed, look no further than the Rouge system, which spreads all over the region and is threatened by all the rampant suburban development of the last few decades. We could move the population of metro Detroit into a tighter grouping, save the larger water system, and, perhaps, have some money to tinker with Bloody Run.

It's a cute idea, y'know. We're going to take Detroit, because Detroit needs all these cutesy experimental things, and tinker with it. Plant farms. Uncover rivers. Turn it into a paradise of frogs and bees and bugs and birds and stuff. You know, for the environment.

Frankly, this is what we should be doing to the EXURBS. And, to a certain extent, to the suburbs. Intelligently letting them revert to nature, which would do a great deal for the major watersheds and would help the Rouge immensely. Don't forget, about 30 years ago they were considering turning THAT into a sewer, though the expenses then were astronomical.

And, frankly, I'm beginning to ask why Kresge is so darned focused on turning the city of Detroit into nature. If you care about the environment, nothing is kinder to the environment than cities: They hold a great multitude of people in a small footprint, use less energy per person, use structures that have existed for decades or more. Instead we're going to demolish large parts of a city that still has "good bones" while doing nothing about the sprawl? Uh-uh. This is weird, man. It's like we're going to save Detroit by pouring money into turning it into a neat little prairie, let the clear waters run through the cemetery for the dead, and no leg-up for the hundreds of thousands who LIVE? Something is wrong here.

[gazhekwe]

Such projects would also open up some jobs, as would the infrastructure improvements some have cited. We need to combine some of our issues and work on them as a package, not just pit one against another.

[DetroitPlanner]

I like the idea and I think it's cool, but ... does it bother anybody that we're proposing a $1 billion project to benefit the environment -- instead of $1 billion to aid the hopeless and needy that live in that environment?

Are you saying clean water, rivers and streams do not benefit anyone? This benefits more than just the environment. People do not want to live next to a river full of someone elses shit. Clean rivers will increase the tax base. People do not want to visit towns where the rivers and streams are full of shit. When was the last time you've heard about tourists visiting Gary? Well Gary has rivers and streams that are so polluted that they are fenced off with big signs saying "Do Not Swim, High Fecal Counts".

We now have Walleye being caught in the Detroit River and people are coming from all over north america just to fish here. Fisherman have money to rent boats and buy fancy equipment. It seems to me that fishing tourists would drop a few bucks in town and employ a few people along the way.

Look at what happened to San Antonio after they opened the riverwalk. It was huge for thier local economy. People like clean water.

Finally the federal government has demanded that metro Detroit cleans its rivers and streams as well as separate sewers. This is the legacy of Judge Fiekens.

Clean water is a basic neccessity for all no mater what thier income is. We are blessed to have more fresh water than just about any other major City. We should not waste our resource.

[RickBeall]

Ultimately, it increases the land value. It's good to dream of great things.

[Parkguy]

I am all for it.

[SWMAP]

The Free press writer John Gallagher covered this topic extensively in his book, Reimagining Detroit.

Gallagher writes: "Many will object to the cost despite the benefits. Since people may see nothing but a parking lot or open field today, getting them to see the possibilities of daylighting a buried stream may require a long period of education.
We would commit an error though if we looked at daylighting merely as a technical, scientific or even as an economic challenge. no matter how difficult the tasks, the big question is always a political one - or to raise the stakes even higher, a cultural one. Daylighting forces us to ask: Living in a place where our ancestors woundedthe landscape, do we suffer today from those earlier actions? can we lose a connection to nature and remain healthy humans? In cities such as Portland and Seattle in the Pacific Northwest, restoring streams crucial to the survival of salmon speaks to the very identity of the community. To lose the salmon would inflict a psychic injury from which those places might never recover. Every city that's tried daylighting agrees: By mending our broken landscapes, we make an act of faith in ourselves."

[Detroitnerd]

If you want to play with rivers, why not first install some pumps to flush out Fox Creek? That's low-cost, would get rid of any fetid odors, and would likely increase the value of the properties along Ashland much the way the Gowanus Canal did. And it won't cost a billion.

As for "beautifying" Detroit by uncovering a river, that's nice. Might create a few jobs. Would be a nice little park. And we all know how well-cared-for Detroit's parks are...

[Detroitnerd]

Are you saying clean water, rivers and streams do not benefit anyone?

You are putting words in my mouth. I am comparing a billion-dollar beautification project to the very real and pressing needs of the community. And I am unsure how this project will benefit people who cannot afford food, shelter and clothing in its immediate vicinity.

This benefits more than just the environment. People do not want to live next to a river full of someone elses shit. Clean rivers will increase the tax base. People do not want to visit towns where the rivers and streams are full of shit. When was the last time you've heard about tourists visiting Gary? Well Gary has rivers and streams that are so polluted that they are fenced off with big signs saying "Do Not Swim, High Fecal Counts".

That's funny, because I once lived someplace where the Rouge ran through my back yard. When it really rained, the storm and sewer drains would mix, and a ferocious slurry of shit would flow into the river. Yeah, those things in the water after a rain weren't Tootsie Rolls. And, yet, somehow, this river ran through some of the tonier parts of Dearborn. I believe the people around the river paid their taxes, even if they held their nose after a bad storm.

We now have Walleye being caught in the Detroit River and people are coming from all over north america just to fish here. Fisherman have money to rent boats and buy fancy equipment. It seems to me that fishing tourists would drop a few bucks in town and employ a few people along the way.

This reasoning is flimsy. Are you saying that if we go through all the trouble to uncover this river, at great expense, that fishermen will pour in to fish a stream? When the river is right there? I don't follow you.

Look at what happened to San Antonio after they opened the riverwalk. It was huge for thier local economy. People like clean water.

So you propose a billion-dollar beautification project because, what? We don't have enough water around here?

The very idea that we would spend a billion dollars on this project when [[a) the Clean Water Act has already saddled Detroit with huge costs because of required reservoirs and [[b) neighborhood people have to team up to unclog their own sewers because of poor maintenance is ridiculous. I see people trying to unstop their sewers sometimes. I would imagine if they heard of this kind of allocation when their services don't work, they would rightly be very, very angry.

Finally the federal government has demanded that metro Detroit cleans its rivers and streams as well as separate sewers. This is the legacy of Judge Fiekens.

That's a joke. They stopped or curtailed testing on the Rouge. It's still unfit to swim in, and, despite soothing statements from officials, there is no plan to clean it up. Shit and pollution still flow into it. Oh, and they're planning to ship nuclear waste on the Detroit River. They're planning nuclear facilities on the Great Lakes. But instead of consider these very real threats, we're going to pour a billion dollars into a boondoggle so Curtis and Leon can get jobs toting fishing poles for Mr. Wilson? Oh, man...

Clean water is a basic neccessity for all no mater what thier income is. We are blessed to have more fresh water than just about any other major City. We should not waste our resource.

Don't conflate the people's right to clean drinking water with a billion-dollar boondoggle please.