Next stop: Oakland?: Suburbs study expansion of Woodward rail

[begingri]

By Bill Shea

A new economic development study of Woodward Avenue north of Eight Mile Road through Birmingham represents an early step in potentially extending Detroit's planned light-rail line into the suburbs.

Currently, there is no plan for the modern streetcar-style transit service to go north of the city limits near the Michigan State Fairgrounds -- something critics have warned will make the Detroit project less effective because it doesn't tap into neighboring communities.

But a task force of elected officials and stakeholders from Ferndale, Huntington Woods, Royal Oak, Berkley and Birmingham was organized in September and has commissioned a first look at what must be done to create the right economic development climate for when the train service is built through those communities.

The task force is spending $13,000 of a $32,700 planning research grant from the Michigan Department of Transportation to hire Grand Rapids-based community planning firm LSL Planning Inc. to develop a transit-oriented development plan for Woodward from Ferndale to Birmingham, said Heather Carmona, executive director of the Woodward Avenue Action Association.

The nonprofit association aimed at bolstering Woodward Avenue organized the "Transform Woodward" Transit-Oriented Development Task Force in September 2010, and the plan is expected to be completed by September.

LSL, which has a Royal Oak office, will create a "framework" plan for Woodward from Ferndale to Birmingham that will include a model transit zoning ordinance, development strategies and concept plans, she said.

The remainder of the grant will be used for initial data collection, outreach and communication.

The communities have different zoning for their respective portions of Woodward -- some are blends of retail and residential, while others are purely commercial -- and the study will be used in efforts to align rezoning that maximizes economic development along the corridor.

Continued at: http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...-woodward-rail

[animatedmartian]

I wonder if some cities will opt out of having stops within them.

[/pessimism]

It'd be cool though if a rail line branched off into downtown Royal Oak.

[/optimism]

[Hypestyles]

there must be no community opt-outs. stop the selfishness. stop the balkanizing.

[brizee]

I read the private funding was pulled less than a month ago. There was even a thread on here about it.

This is really beginning to fatigue and piss me off.

Either put a shovel in the ground or announce the project is cancelled.
Sick of feeling like the public is being played.

And so as not to take a complete dump on the thread[[sorry for the venting) this is a pretty encouraging and welcome sign. The more transit options the better.

Though it looks like Brooks is still a genital appendage and/or orifice.

[professorscott]

First of all, it is an exaggeration to say the private funding was pulled. The private consortium has some concerns about DDOT, but not one private funder has gone so far as to say categorically that they are withdrawing support.

With regard to an extension into Oakland County, first of all that extension is clearly indicated on the Regional Transit Service Plan that RTCC published in 2008, which I believe you can still find on SEMCOG's web site. Second, all the communities from Ferndale to Birmingham seem to be actively involved in the Woodward Avenue committee, so it is unlikely any community will want to be excluded from light rail service.

The big questions, in my mind, are these three:
1. How far north should it go?
2. How will we handle Royal Oak? Methinks the train ought to divert off Woodward into downtown, but that is just MHO.
3. [[drum roll) Whence the local match?

If someone can answer #3 for me, I will personally see to it that all other issues are handled

[brizee]

It wasn't my words http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthr...ward-rail-plan

I hope it happens as much anyone in this city.

[Scottathew]

This needs to be done, with or without private funding. Take it straight to Pontiac!

Communities along the rail line will see property values start to increase as people want to live in the burbs near the mass transit and work downtown.

Detroit is starting to come back, if the burbs want to be a part of it mass transit would be key.

[professorscott]

This needs to be done, with or without private funding. Take it straight to Pontiac!

Communities along the rail line will see property values start to increase as people want to live in the burbs near the mass transit and work downtown.

Detroit is starting to come back, if the burbs want to be a part of it mass transit would be key.

Pontiac is an interesting issue. Would it be effective between Birmingham and Pontiac? I can definitely see it going to Birmingham, but north of there I'm not sure light rail is the best answer. If we were able to actually build an effective transit system for the entire Woodward corridor, I would say there are three parts:

1. Commuter rail from Pontiac to Detroit, making only a very few stops along the way;
2. Light rail from Birmingham to Detroit, stopping about every 1.5 miles on average;
3. The buses we already have.

Just IMHO of course.

[hudkina]

Pontiac is best served by Commuter rail. The light rail should end in Birmingham. There's no reason to extend an LRT system 7.5 miles [[at $15+ million per mile) through a low-density/high-wealth area whose residents will almost certainly oppose such an extension. I'd rather spend that $150+ million on other routes [[E Jefferson from downtown to the Grosse Pointe Park border or even along 8 Mile/The Lodge from Woodward to the Southfield Town Center/Lawrence Tech area.)

A commuter rail station in Pontiac with a connection to Bloomfield Hills, Birmingham/Troy, Royal Oak, Ferndale, Highland Park/Hamtramck and Detroit would be good enough for the residents of Pontiac. Not only that, but the Royal Oak and Downtown stations would have direct access to the light rail running along Woodward. If someone wanted to travel to the Detroit Zoo from Pontiac they would jump on the train in Pontiac and take it to Royal Oak, transfer to the LRT system right in Downtown Royal Oak and take that two stops down Washington Ave to Woodward/10 Mile.

[thatguy123]

This needs to be done, with or without private funding. Take it straight to Pontiac!

Communities along the rail line will see property values start to increase as people want to live in the burbs near the mass transit and work downtown.

Detroit is starting to come back, if the burbs want to be a part of it mass transit would be key.

lol keep dreaming.

Wake up to reality, people don't dream of working "downtown" as much as the extreme outer fringe on this board think 99% of the population want to.

[hudkina]

BTW, the light rail stations should be no more than 1/2 mile or so apart. The most logical choice would to have stops at each of the miles and their half miles. For example:

8 Mile Rd [[State Fairgrounds) --> Marshall Ave --> 9 Mile Rd [[Ferndale) --> Woodward Heights Blvd [[Pleasant Ridge) --> I-696 [[Detroit Zoo) --> Lincoln Ave [[Royal Oak) --> 11 Mile Rd [[RO transit center) --> Catalpa Dr --> 12 Mile Rd [[Berkley) --> Webster Rd --> 13 Mile Rd/Coolidge Hwy [[Beaumont Hospital) --> Normandy Rd --> 14 Mile Rd --> Adams Rd --> Maple Rd [[Birmingham)

You could even extend it up Woodward as far as Oak Ave in Birmingham to create a "Park 'N' Ride" stop as well as give access to the northern neighborhoods of Birmingham.

[professorscott]

BTW, the light rail stations should be no more than 1/2 mile or so apart. The most logical choice would to have stops at each of the miles and their half miles. For example:

8 Mile Rd [[State Fairgrounds) --> Marshall Ave --> 9 Mile Rd [[Ferndale) --> Woodward Heights Blvd [[Pleasant Ridge) --> I-696 [[Detroit Zoo) --> Lincoln Ave [[Royal Oak) --> 11 Mile Rd [[RO transit center) --> Catalpa Dr --> 12 Mile Rd [[Berkley) --> Webster Rd --> 13 Mile Rd/Coolidge Hwy [[Beaumont Hospital) --> Normandy Rd --> 14 Mile Rd --> Adams Rd --> Maple Rd [[Birmingham)

You could even extend it up Woodward as far as Oak Ave in Birmingham to create a "Park 'N' Ride" stop as well as give access to the northern neighborhoods of Birmingham.

I like the idea of a Park and Ride station in the north part of Birmingham. I'm not sure if the train stops every half-mile it will be fast enough to really work well. Even in Detroit, according to the current plan, once you get north of New Center it only stops about once a mile. I do think Royal Oak merits a couple extra stops though.

[EL Jimbo]

BTW, the light rail stations should be no more than 1/2 mile or so apart. The most logical choice would to have stops at each of the miles and their half miles. For example:

8 Mile Rd [[State Fairgrounds) --> Marshall Ave --> 9 Mile Rd [[Ferndale) --> Woodward Heights Blvd [[Pleasant Ridge) --> I-696 [[Detroit Zoo) --> Lincoln Ave [[Royal Oak) --> 11 Mile Rd [[RO transit center) --> Catalpa Dr --> 12 Mile Rd [[Berkley) --> Webster Rd --> 13 Mile Rd/Coolidge Hwy [[Beaumont Hospital) --> Normandy Rd --> 14 Mile Rd --> Adams Rd --> Maple Rd [[Birmingham)

You could even extend it up Woodward as far as Oak Ave in Birmingham to create a "Park 'N' Ride" stop as well as give access to the northern neighborhoods of Birmingham.

Actually, about one mile apart is just about the ideal in terms of matching speed of the rail line to accessibility. Studies I have read in the past state that the typical max distance people are willing to walk to access transit is about half a mile. So by having a one mile gap between stops, the people halfway between stops will be half a mile from either stop.

Spacing stops that way reduces the number of needed stops, thus speeding up the line without compromising accessibility.

[DTWflyer]

While it sounds nice in theory, I doubt that the commuting patterns of most people living in the North Woodward corridor justifies light rail on Woodward north of downtown Royal Oak.

The communities are too dispersed - how many people in Royal Oak, Berkley, or Birmingham live within a reasonable walking distance of Woodward that would consider using an LRT.

Many of the people in these communities do not now and will not ever work downtown. Not when you have a significant number of people in these communities commuting to the major regional business centers in Warren [[GM Tech Center), Southfield, Farmington/Novi, Dearborn [[Ford), Auburn Hilss [[Chrysler).

[iheartthed]

Actually, about one mile apart is just about the ideal in terms of matching speed of the rail line to accessibility. Studies I have read in the past state that the typical max distance people are willing to walk to access transit is about half a mile. So by having a one mile gap between stops, the people halfway between stops will be half a mile from either stop.

Spacing stops that way reduces the number of needed stops, thus speeding up the line without compromising accessibility.

One mile apart is the ideal, or the absolute limit? I have used a lot of transit systems and can't ever recall riding one where the stops were spaced at 1 mile intervals. Most stops are typically at half mile intervals, that way everyone along the line is roughly a 5 minute walk to the nearest station.

[casscorridor]

The intervals are already spaced one-mile apart starting at six mile. It wouldn't make sense to have half mile intervals after that just because it's Oakland County. Maybe people on this forum live in OC so they think they deserve it. But only three stations are neccesary - 9 Mile/Ferndale, 10 Mile/696/Zoo, 11 Mile/Royal Oak. And that will be a costly expansion as is. Hopefully this expansion would be coupled with a Michigan Ave/Dearborn line, which is much more important because it connecrs FAR more employers to employees.

[Bham1982]

I like the idea of a Park and Ride station in the north part of Birmingham. I'm not sure if the train stops every half-mile it will be fast enough to really work well.

The north part of Birmingham, towards 16 Mile Road [[Quarton) isn't pedestrian friendly, and would be hostile to light rail and large commuter parking lots.

This is the wealthiest, most conservative and most suburban part of Birmingham.

I doubt light rail would ever come to Birmingham, but if it did, it would never go north of Maple.

[Novine]

"I doubt light rail would ever come to Birmingham, but if it did, it would never go north of Maple."

This again? Birmingham won't have any say in whether light rail goes north of Maple. When SEMTA ran commuter trains, was Birmingham able to block those from going through? No.

[lizaanne]

I really think it needs to grow north gradually, and not as one massive project. Do it a chunk at a time, and as interest and usage grows, then add on more access to the north, based on what the actual needs are.

[Bham1982]

"I doubt light rail would ever come to Birmingham, but if it did, it would never go north of Maple."

This again? Birmingham won't have any say in whether light rail goes north of Maple. When SEMTA ran commuter trains, was Birmingham able to block those from going through? No.

I'm not sure what you're arguing. Totally apples and oranges.

The SEMTA trains were definitely popular and supported, ran in an existing rail alignment, and were adjacent to a totally non-residential industrial/warehouse zone. The closest residential neighborhoods are the most working class in Birmingham.

In contrast, North Birmingham is totally residential, extremely conservative and affluent, and has no transit to speak of.

And the demographics of light rail and commuter rail are completely different. Commuter rail is high priced, and attracts an affluent, professional commuter weekday crowd. Light rail is low priced and attracts the bus riding demographic, and isn't tied to business hours.

As to whether Birmingham would have a say on rail, why wouldn't they? How could they get rail if they didn't want it? Especially for possibly the most influential constituency in the state [[Birmingham-Bloomfield Richie Rich crowd)?

Existing bus service is opt-in only. I can't imagine this would change with any other modes of transit. And even if it did, a community can obviously influence the alignment during the planning phase. The state isn't wasting money and time on rail in a municipality where it isn't wanted.

[kryptonite]

Currently even the idea of a Woodward light rail line just in Detroit alone seems iffy. Until workers are present and doing something it will just be something for people to talk about. Although this seriously is the closest such a thing has ever come to reality.

To speculate about suburban extensions of the line and what impact that will have on property values is only theoretical. The Detroit-only service appears to be in limbo for now.

My thinking is that if nothing is built other than to the New Center area that could link to also-theoretical airport/AA rail service - that alone would be a huge step. If metro Detroit could ever provide DTW travelers with a rail option to Downtown, that would be a great day for Michigan.

[iheartthed]

My thinking is that if nothing is built other than to the New Center area that could link to also-theoretical airport/AA rail service - that alone would be a huge step. If metro Detroit could ever provide DTW travelers with a rail option to Downtown, that would be a great day for Michigan.

Frankly, that is the absolute most important part of the system. A light rail line from downtown to the train station that could link a commuter rail line system from the airport is far more important than building up to Royal Oak or Birmingham.

[Dbest]

Part me wonders if these "regional" extensions would only damage the downtown residential momentum?

I

[Novine]

"As to whether Birmingham would have a say on rail, why wouldn't they? How could they get rail if they didn't want it? Especially for possibly the most influential constituency in the state [[Birmingham-Bloomfield Richie Rich crowd)?"

A community might have influence but it doesn't mean they have a say in whether the system goes through or not. Bus service is a different matter because of how SMART is funded. Unless light rail is going to be paid and offered on a per-community basis, which is unlikely, the routes aren't going to be dictated by individual communities, especially when those communities have no control over the right-of-way for those services.

[ResurgetCineribus]

Part me wonders if these "regional" extensions would only damage the downtown residential momentum?

I

I've wondered this too, just another way to get out of Detroit.