A Purely Theoretical Thread About Job Creation

[old guy]

We keep hearing politicians talking about job creation, but nobody ever comes up with anything. In purely theoretical, non partisan dialogue, does anybody actually have ideas about how to get people back to work and in doing so, fix the economy? I think we would agree that people working would bring the economy back. But how simple or complex is it if you remove the politics from the conversation?

Understanding that we can't afford any more stimulus packages, in theory, wouldn't a huge stimulus aimed at infrastructure, actually jump start the economy? The domino effect on a grand scale. If, we had the influx of cash, wouldn't it be that simple?

I'm just tired of hearing people talking about the need for jobs, and then it evolves into another long drawn out political discussion and jobs end up not being discussed. I'm just thinking that if we could create some civil dialogue, without the politics, it might be a good starting point.

It's hard to believe this thing's broken and there ain't nobody knows nothin' bout how to fix it.

[oladub]

Begin with the premise that there must be a shortage of US labor before labor can effectively organize or demand anything. As long as it is more profitable to produce anything overseas or with foreign labor, companies' managements have a fiduciary responsibility to hire foreign labor to increase profits. My solution would be to end the economically treasonous NAFTA type agreements and substitute import taxes for personal income taxes. It would suddenly make more financial sense to produce more in the US. Fining the hell out of anyone caught cheating by hiring illegals would raise some additional income and help employers understand the virtues of hiring US workers too. When it becomes more practical to hire US workers than to make something in China, US workers will be in short supply and be able to demand a larger share of the national economic pie.

[firstandten]

We keep hearing politicians talking about job creation, but nobody ever comes up with anything. In purely theoretical, non partisan dialogue, does anybody actually have ideas about how to get people back to work and in doing so, fix the economy? I think we would agree that people working would bring the economy back. But how simple or complex is it if you remove the politics from the conversation?

Understanding that we can't afford any more stimulus packages, in theory, wouldn't a huge stimulus aimed at infrastructure, actually jump start the economy? The domino effect on a grand scale. If, we had the influx of cash, wouldn't it be that simple?

I'm just tired of hearing people talking about the need for jobs, and then it evolves into another long drawn out political discussion and jobs end up not being discussed. I'm just thinking that if we could create some civil dialogue, without the politics, it might be a good starting point.

It's hard to believe this thing's broken and there ain't nobody knows nothin' bout how to fix it.

Clinton came up with some ideas to improve the jobs picture. His number 1 suggestion which speaks to infrastructure projects is to speed the approvals. Currently even with shovel ready projects it takes up to three years to get all the approvals to start working. If the majority of the stimulus money could have been spent on infrastructure approved shovel ready projects we may be having a different conversation. This is an area where gov't could be more efficient.

[firstandten]

Begin with the premise that there must be a shortage of US labor before labor can effectively organize or demand anything. As long as it is more profitable to produce anything overseas or with foreign labor, companies' managements have a fiduciary responsibility to hire foreign labor to increase profits. My solution would be to end the economically treasonous NAFTA type agreements and substitute import taxes for personal income taxes. It would suddenly make more financial sense to produce more in the US. Fining the hell out of anyone caught cheating by hiring illegals would raise some additional income and help employers understand the virtues of hiring US workers too. When it becomes more practical to hire US workers than to make something in China, US workers will be in short supply and be able to demand a larger share of the national economic pie.

I would love to do what you suggest ! What kind of economic hit would we take in retaliation if we did this ?

Your second suggestion would go a long way in addressing the immigration debate

[Johnnny5]

1. Aggressively prosecute U.S businesses that employ illegal immigrant workers.

2. Institute product labeling laws mandating that country of origin labeling be prominently displayed on the front of all packaging, and also be noted in product catalogs and on the web sites of U.S based online retailers.

3. Use public funds to promote the benefits of buying locally made, and U.S made goods over their foreign competition.

[lilpup]

4. Immediately stop all H1B hiring

5. Institute relocation assistance for all US citizens to those regions where employers claim they can't find any domestic workers and are thus dependent on immigrant labor - mandate citizenship discrimination in hiring.

[Det_ard]

Begin with the premise that there must be a shortage of US labor before labor can effectively organize or demand anything. As long as it is more profitable to produce anything overseas or with foreign labor, companies' managements have a fiduciary responsibility to hire foreign labor to increase profits.

"Labor" isn't one uniform commodity. Right now there is a shortage of many types of labor in the US, even in the Detroit area. There is however a lack of of low/no skilled jobs and an abundance of candidates for that type of work. Should we aspire to create more dead-end menial jobs for Americans, or let others in developing countries do that type of work and aim a little higher here? I'd say aim higher, for the days of high pay for low skill work are gone. Try to make manufacturers hire low skill workers at high wages and they'll simply do what they've been doing and substitute automation for strong backs.

My solution would be to end the economically treasonous NAFTA type agreements and substitute import taxes for personal income taxes. It would suddenly make more financial sense to produce more in the US. Fining the hell out of anyone caught cheating by hiring illegals would raise some additional income and help employers understand the virtues of hiring US workers too. When it becomes more practical to hire US workers than to make something in China, US workers will be in short supply and be able to demand a larger share of the national economic pie.

Well, workers better make a huge amount more than they do now, since prices of everything will shoot up the minute you tax imports and require companies to produce in high-cost areas. It makes no more sense to restrict trade between the US and other countries than it does to restrict trade between Michigan and California, or between Detroit and Warren. The arguments for free trade are classic and generally well-understood, but here's short video from Milton Friedman addressing the concerns about Japan and Steel, from [[judging from the leisure suit wearer in the audience) the mid-70s.

[oladub]

Det_ard: "Labor" isn't one uniform commodity. Right now there is a shortage of many types of labor in the US, even in the Detroit area. There is however a lack of of low/no skilled jobs and an abundance of candidates for that type of work. Should we aspire to create more dead-end menial jobs for Americans, or let others in developing countries do that type of work and aim a little higher here? I'd say aim higher, for the days of high pay for low skill work are gone. Try to make manufacturers hire low skill workers at high wages and they'll simply do what they've been doing and substitute automation for strong backs.

I think that you are correct about higher wages driving automation forward but i wasn't suggesting that manufacturers be made to hire low skill workers at high wages. I was instead suggesting that if the federal government created a situation wherein manufacturers would find it to their own advantage to hire US workers, the competition for US workers would drive their wages up. This would make more sense then paying them to be on unemployment. The prices of some goods and services would go up but they would be offset by reduced spending for social services and unemployment. Getting back to automation; someone has to build the automation equipment and run it. Those would be higher paying jobs.

Well, workers better make a huge amount more than they do now, since prices of everything will shoot up the minute you tax imports and require companies to produce in high-cost areas. It makes no more sense to restrict trade between the US and other countries than it does to restrict trade between Michigan and California, or between Detroit and Warren. The arguments for free trade are classic and generally well-understood, but here's short video from Milton Friedman addressing the concerns about Japan and Steel, from [[judging from the leisure suit wearer in the audience) the mid-70s.

Prices would go up in imported goods and services but since we import so much more than export, we have the better hand if anyone wants to have a trade war. I did watch the Friedman video. He is wrong in assuming that dollars will all come back to buy US goods and services. Some of those dollars come back to gain control of US industry [[e.g. Chrysler) and other dollars come back to buy treasuries we have to pay interest on. Some of those dollars, in short, come back to own us.

An import tax would, among other things, raise the price of oil since 70% of our oil is imported. What easier way to encourage the production of other domestic sources of energy we have plenty of? There would be less cause for cap and trade and government subsidies for other types of energy if imported oil were taxed higher. Remember that I started out suggesting that import taxes offset individual income taxes so most everyone would have a bit more money in their pockets to buy either higher taxed oil or a domestic car not relying on imported oil. Also, almost too good to be true, if import taxes caused us to focus a bit more on domestic energy production and technology, our leaders wouldn't have as much need to be meddling in the middle-east.

[old guy]

4. Immediately stop all H1B hiring

5. Institute relocation assistance for all US citizens to those regions where employers claim they can't find any domestic workers and are thus dependent on immigrant labor - mandate citizenship discrimination in hiring.

Where I live, I see a problem with H-2B hiring. The government claims the quota is 66,000 per year but I find that hard to believe. These are seasonal jobs and at the lower end of the pay scale. Although I feel that we should be pushing for good wages in this country, I see these jobs as what we used to refer to as entry level.
They chew up all the summer jobs in the area that used to be filled by local students and semi-retired people that need to supplement their income. When summer ends, a new batch of H-2B employees come in and fill all the positions at the ski hills, grocery stores and hotels.

These are low paying jobs, but a large number of kids have used them to save money for college or buy their first vehicle, etc. This whole possibility for kids to have their first job, learn responsibility and develop a basic work ethic is gone.

I just don't understand why we're doing this, especially during these tough times.

I also think that if there were a large number of construction jobs created, you'd see good wages in an area that can't be bargained for with overseas competition. The problem is, I don't see any way that we're going to have money for infrastructure projects other than for failed infrastructure. We're kind of in that emergency room mode right now. Wait for a disaster as a sign that something needs to be fixed.

[Bigb23]

When my ship was being refitted about 1977, yard workers,[[Yardbirds), were being paid $18/hr, a good living wage back then for a dangerous job. Fast forward to 2007, and I read an article about a Shipyard in Erie, Pa. where the guy said he couldn't find enough skilled welders to work the contract job. So he had to hire H1B workers from Poland.
Well, with a little Google work, I found out that his skilled wages started at $8/hr., not even $18/hr. He threw up a couple of hasty Craigslist ads to fulfill his search obligations for the H1B requirements.
Inflation at 4% a year, for 30 years, but a $10 an hour drop in wages! No wonder he had a so called hard time finding workers.
I've run across this time and again to skirt the law, to avoid a slightly more expensive local worker, for somebody imported. And when you factor in travel and housing costs for the employer, at first, it works out to be the same anyway.

[old guy]

Det_ard
"Labor" isn't one uniform commodity. Right now there is a shortage of many types of labor in the US, even in the Detroit area. There is however a lack of of low/no skilled jobs and an abundance of candidates for that type of work. Should we aspire to create more dead-end menial jobs for Americans, or let others in developing countries do that type of work and aim a little higher here? I'd say aim higher, for the days of high pay for low skill work are gone. Try to make manufacturers hire low skill workers at high wages and they'll simply do what they've been doing and substitute automation for strong backs."

I think another area we should be focusing on is health care. People worry that we'll end up with a health care system that can't handle the large number of elderly that will require treatment in the near future. I know a girl that just finished training as an X-ray technician. She's had 5 job offers to start at $65,000 a year within 2 weeks of graduating. Average pay once she gains experience runs about $80,000 a year.

Rather than worrying about a lack of trained health care workers, why don't we encourage an aggressive training program. We're supposed to be the greatest country in the world, why not tackle this problem while there are an abundance of unemployed people that would jump at the chance to be re-trained.

Automation in manufacturing is going to be a tough hurdle. I think that if we rely on manufacturing to bring back the economy it's going to be a long road. I realize that we need a stable manufacturing base for the country to be prosperous, I'm just not sure it's where we should focus our energy to rebound. I think it's unrealistic to think that a large number of people that have worked in manufacturing aren't going to have to find a new profession.

[Patrick]

When my ship was being refitted about 1977, yard workers,[[Yardbirds), were
being paid $18/hr, a good living wage back then for a dangerous job. Fast
forward to 2007, and I read an article about a Shipyard in Erie, Pa. where the
guy said he couldn't find enough skilled welders to work the contract job. So he
had to hire H1B workers from Poland.
Well, with a little Google work, I found
out that his skilled wages started at $8/hr., not even $18/hr. He threw up a
couple of hasty Craigslist ads to fulfill his search obligations for the H1B
requirements.
Inflation at 4% a year, for 30 years, but a $10 an hour drop in
wages! No wonder he had a so called hard time finding workers.
I've run
across this time and again to skirt the law, to avoid a slightly more expensive
local worker, for somebody imported. And when you factor in travel and housing
costs for the employer, at first, it works out to be the same
anyway.

$18.00 an hour in 1977 would be $67.00 an hour today or about $140K a year...what would someone consider is a comfortable hourly wage right now in SE Michigan?

[GOAT]

Old Guy, the problem with the stimulus in the USA was that it wasn't big enough and there was fuck all accountability. It was just a "here's the money to the cities now get to it". Contrast that to the way Canada and Germany did it and you would see that it actually works...to a degree.

Freet trade is a great idea with like minded nations IE: 1st world with 1st world. As soon as one has a large economical advantage IE: 1st world to 2nd or 3rd world, and the 1st world loses every time.
Except the investors and wall street of course. They get more and more $$$ each time.

[Bigb23]

$18.00 an hour in 1977 would be $67.00 an hour today or about $140K a year...what would someone consider is a comfortable hourly wage right now in SE Michigan?

Last edited by Patrick; Today at 04:53 PM.

Of course those stats are buying power, where Americans supported American jobs.

http://www.dollartimes.com/calculators/inflation.htm
$8.00 in 1977 had the same buying power as $30.13 in 2011.
Annual inflation over this period was 3.98%.
So using your calculator,
$2.32 in 1977 had the same buying power as $8.04 in 2007.
Annual inflation over this period was 4.23%.
So skilled pipefitters and welders working on Government property should have only made $2.32 in 1977, to equate to $8 and change in 2007 ? How much has CEO pay gone up in that time ? 400% ?

[Patrick]

How much has CEO pay gone up in that time ? 400% ?

Bu bu but ther're worth it

[jackie5275]

Old Guy, the problem with the stimulus in the USA was that it wasn't big enough and there was fuck all accountability. It was just a "here's the money to the cities now get to it".

Agreed. What did Michigan do with their stimulus money? Use it to balance the budget that year. There are so many infrastructure projects that need to be done. The power grids that are outdated, the water main lines that are around 100 yrs old, the bridges that are in need of updating for safety, these are just a few examples of what dedicated, stimulus money projects can be. Like 1st & 10 said, these need to be ready to go when the money is available. Otherwise, it has to go through the bid process, which with this money requires tremendous oversight.

[old guy]

I do agree that the stimulus package[[s) were too small and got chewed up trying to stave off a real disaster that was in the forefront at the time. There was an earlier feebler attempt when Bush sent everyone in the country a check for a few hundred dollars. The idea is correct. But it's not a very good way to go about it. We keep tossing money at the problem in small increments and it's not solving anything. Go big or go home.

I think we have to do something drastic to make it work. Probably something that would make everyone nervous. I just don't see how we can sit around much longer without trying something. We're worried about bringing the country to its knees, but it already is. Debt, schmet, we're suddenly headed backwards again and it looks like the ride might get scarier.

[Papasito]

Mexico is whipping our ass when it comes to jobs.
Maybe we should start sneaking south across the border and doing the jobs that Mexicans don't want to do.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/mexi...mployment-rate

Mexico Unemployment Rate

The unemployment rate in Mexico was last reported at 5.4 percent in June of 2011. From 2000 until 2010, Mexico's Unemployment Rate averaged 3.45 percent reaching an historical high of 5.93 percent in May of 2009 and a record low of 2.22 percent in November of 2002.

[old guy]

An interesting story on ABC news last night about where politicians running for president are buying their merchandise. One American T-shirt company that makes shirts for half the candidates and employs 500 people said that if the other half of the candidates bought through them, they could hire an additional 500 people. Hey, there's a good place to start.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/presi...ry?id=14212262

[maxx]

Lots of good ideas on this thread but none will get done because the Reps. have the House from whence come all appropriations bills. They're not interested in creating jobs during a Dem. admin. They won't even pass the FAA appropriation so loads of construction workers have been laid off and the gov. isn't even collecting airport taxes . Reps. are actually stopping revenues from coming in thereby adding to the deficit.

[old guy]

Right, we're losing $30,000,000 a day in revenue and 4000 people have been laid off. There's an additional 70,000 construction workers that have been laid off that were working on airport projects. Meanwhile all the construction equipment that's sitting at over 200 sites is costing the government lease fees. So the government is losing about 210 million a week, plus all the expenses that will be accrued during the down time. This is getting embarrassing. Really moving forward here.

[ghettopalmetto]

Right, we're losing $30,000,000 a day in revenue and 4000 people have been laid off. There's an additional 70,000 construction workers that have been laid off that were working on airport projects. Meanwhile all the construction equipment that's sitting at over 200 sites is costing the government lease fees. So the government is losing about 210 million a week, plus all the expenses that will be accrued during the down time. This is getting embarrassing. Really moving forward here.

And even beyond the immediate impact, you have to look at what some of these airport construction projects are. Atlanta Hartsfield-Jackson Airport, the busiest airport in the world, has a new $1.2 BILLION International Terminal under construction. You can't tell me that a delay in that project doesn't hurt our long-term economic prospects.

This is what happens when people place their politics above the good of the country.

[oladub]

It seems like a waste for a bunch of projects to be suddenly halted. Maybe I missed something. Why is it necessary for the federal government to pay for local airports? Why not have the airports charge the airlines a fee for every passenger? Why do you all want the federal government to subsidize Delta, and other private corporations when the airlines could simply pass along the cost as a user fee like a toll road? If this is such a big problem, then Congress should reconvene for a day and snip away at the expanded budget ceiling.

[[off topic) While I'm at it, why does the TSA treat first class passengers better than other passengers by having express lanes while the rest of us wait our turn?

[old guy]

So they don't like the subsidies for rural airports and the possibility for airline employees to unionize. Why stop everything that's already rolling? Take up the issue but quit tacking all these inclusions onto the backs of people that are lucky enough to be working and contributing to a faltering economy. What's the next step?

[barnesfoto]

The unemployment rate in Mexico was last reported at 5.4 percent in June of 2011. From 2000 until 2010, Mexico's Unemployment Rate averaged 3.45 percent reaching an historical high of 5.93 percent in May of 2009 and a record low of 2.22 percent in November of 2002.

I am reminded of the old parable of the blind men and the elephant. [[apologies to anyone who is actually blind and not mypopic, like our usual misguided posters who blather about how hard they are working while contaminating the board with endless misinformed posts)...


Any unemployment data from Mexico is suspect. Because Mexico is the sort of economic paradise that our friends from a certain sick cult want to convert our own country into [[low taxes, no welfare, no legal abortion, less regulation, weak or nonexistent labor unions) there is no incentive for any Mexican citizen to report themselves as "unemployed". Much of Mexico's economy is driven by a vast "informal" economy of people who, lacking any gainful employment, sell used goods, tacos or quesadillas from simple stands on street corners...[[I won't even mention the giant industry that supplies bored or unhappy Americans with illegal drugs that help them escape from what seems to be a completely uninteresting reality).
Thus, asking any Mexican Citizen if he/she is unemployed is a complete waste of time. Of course, the bright side is that the "low taxes, low wages, weak uinons, less regulation of business" model has helped one guy, Carlos Slim, achieve the status of "richest guy in the world". It seems that there are many people in this country who would love to be in the place where Mexico is. Some people call them "Republicans". I call them "morans".
Now I don't want anyone to think that I am anti-Mexican Republic. I lived there for almost two years and loved it.
Even a flawed country like Mexico, dominated by misguided conservative and "free-market" ideas for the last two decades deserves a bit of credit...They have created a universal health care system that is deeply flawed, but attempts to grant every citizen access to health care.