Visit to Belle Isle

[jt1]

"As far as getting people to donate to FOBI, one of the aforementioned nincompoops probably has a few bucks that she saved on her property taxes that she could donate. Try giving her a call."

Defer, defer, defer.

I was always under the impression if you wanted to improve something you donate time or money not withhold your time/money until it is up to your expectations [[at which point there is no need for your time/money)

Does the city mismanage BI? Absolutely. Is that or BWC tax boondoggle enough to justify sitting on your hands and waiting for others to do the work? I guess it is for some people.

[jt1]

"The conservancy is on the way, currently being led and created by the BIWC. They are currently getting the committments for financing the conservancy and then will move on to raising the funds for the restoration of the island. [[The newly landscapped Sunset Point with new restroom facilities was paid from by the BIWC). They are hooked into the movers and shakers of the Detroit area. This is not a pie in the sky organization or dream, look for real results in a few years. "

Awesome news. I wonder if rjk will commit to donating time/money when it is turned over to a conservancy. I'm sure there'll be another reason to bitch but do nothing.

[Norwalk]

I see all the work being done at Tri-centennial Park and I can't help but to think of Belle Isle and its neglect.

[kraig]

I think rjk's point, and it's a good one, is that it's the City of Detroit's responsibility to have working bathrooms at a 5.5 square mile public park. Expecting a park that has millions of visitors a year to have decent restroom facilities shouldn't be considered bitching or moaning, it should be considered normal.

[Stosh]

Questions I would have are, will the City turn over control of the island to the conservancy? Will the conservancy make the rules? Be responsible for maintenance? Charge a fee for entrance?

[jt1]

kraig - I agree with the point that the city is not performing their responsibilities as expected in regards to BI.

My point however is that there are four things someone can do:

1. Donate your time [[less work for the limited city resources so they can work on other things - I'm not saying that they do a good job by any stretch)

2. Donate money to FOBI so they can improve the park with their limited resources.

3. Bitch and do nothing

4. Do nothing but stay silent.

The least appealing to me is number 3 which is where all too many people fit.

[jt1]

"I see all the work being done at Tri-centennial Park and I can't help but to think of Belle Isle and its neglect. "

I believe that Tricentennial is a state funded park. The dollars [[and accountability) are there for the improvements and maintenance.

[EastsideAl]

Central Park is surrounded by some of the wealthiest urban neighborhoods in the country and ringed by multi-million dollar apartments occupied by [[what else?) multi-millionaires, very many of whom use the park on a regular basis. To compare what the Central Park Conservancy is able to do with anything an organization like the Friends of B.I. or other equivalent organization could do in the City of Detroit is pretty ludicrous.

I agree with the original poster that a number of simple things could be done much better to make the park more pleasant, safe, and usable. Parks and Rec, like far too many of our city's public agencies, continually shows a pretty high level of carelessness and lack of concern. But to say that HCMA should take over a park that they have turned down repeatedly, and that is primarily used by people they are very obviously not interested in serving [[despite the fact that those people pay the same HCMA tax hit as the rest of the area's residents) seems clueless, or at least ignorant of the history of that interaction.

You can try glossing over the glaring lack of resources in Parks and Rec or the city government, but the lack of resources in the city as a whole is the heart of the matter and the very thing that makes the situation so difficult. Belle Isle and its facilities were built at a time when Detroit was one of the wealthiest cities in the country, instead of one of the poorest as it is now, and even with much better work by Parks and Rec it would still be extremely difficult to keep up with its needs. It is clear that, like with so many other things around here, a regionalized effort to maintain Belle Isle would be the best thing that could happen, whether public or semi-privately through a Conservancy-like organization with some significant buy-in from more of our wealthier area residents. But the interest in doing that is obviously lacking, as the struggles of the Friends of B.I. show. In the meantime, those same people will bemoan how awful "what happened to Belle Isle" is.

Despite all this, the park will continue to be used as it has always been by the people of Detroit, it'll fill up with life on the weekends even with its crumbling infrastructure, and the island itself will certainly remain for a future when things around here will hopefully change for the better.

[Stosh]

I found this letter on the Friends of Belle Isle Aquarium forum, from 2005:
http://www.belleisleaquarium.com/dis...ages/1/32.html

I got 2 responses from HCMA. One is below [[David Moilanen), the other was from Robert Marans, who is faculty in my department. That response was an invitation to talk to me in person, which I will likely take up in the future.

Below is Mr. Moilanen's response, unedited and currently without comment.

*************************************************

Dear Jason,

Thanks for your thoughts on Belle Isle and how the HCMA might work more on the island. I realize you probably will not agree with all of the following, but allow me to explain the situation from the HCMA's perspective. You seem to know quite a lot about the system, but let me give you a brief overview:

The Huron-Clinton Metropolitan Authority is a five-county special park district established by state law in 1939 and approved by a vote of the residents of the district, Wayne, Oakland, Macomb, Washtenaw and Livingston counties, during the 1940 general election. The purpose of the special park district was to develop and operate large regional parks within the five counties. The original vision, as it was approved by all the region's residents including those in Detroit, was to create a system of parks ringing the Detroit Metropolitan area along the Huron and Clinton rivers. They would be large land holdings with diverse recreational activities and facilities that would attract visitors from throughout the region.

These regional parks were not intended to provide for all the outdoor recreational needs of the district. They were intended to complement the parks and recreation centers of municipalities, cities, townships, counties and the state, providing just a piece of the recreational puzzle for the residents of Southeast Michigan. Local governmental agencies could operate smaller, more intensively developed parks, but by pooling funds from the residents of the five counties, the HCMA could purchase larger tracts of land and operate facilities that the individual governmental units could not do on their own. The HCMA, with these agencies, could together better meet the outdoor recreational needs of the residents.

The HCMA, with dedicated funding provided by up to a quarter mill tax levy on the property within the five counties [[currently the Authority levies .2154 mils due to Headlee Amendment roll backs), began developing Metroparks in the region. Parks were planned and land was purchased along the two rivers where inexpensive property with appealing natural features could be found. At the time these parks were first established, these were not "rich" areas. They were built in rural areas on land that was of marginal value for farming or other purposes. This land was chosen also because there were no large parcels left in Detroit. The first to open was Kensington Metropark, in 1948. Since then, HCMA has grown to include 13 Metroparks, encompassing more than 24,000 acres and serving between nine million and 10 million people each year. Through the years, with a stable source of funding, coupled with sound fiscal management and the economies that come from operating fewer larger parks rather than many smaller parks, the HCMA has developed a national reputation for managing a system of clean, safe, well-maintained parks that greatly enhance the quality of life for the residents of the region.

Through the HCMA's history, there has been concern expressed that no regional park facilities were located within or close to the main population center, Detroit, and therefore the regional parks were inaccessible to some people who did not have automobile transportation. HCMA has tried to be responsive to this concern. Four large Metroparks -- Lower Huron, Willow, Oakwoods and Lake Erie -- are located within Wayne County and are relatively close to the city. For years, the HCMA's interpretive department has done outreach nature programming at schools and at other venues within the City of Detroit.

In the late '60s the Metroparks again looked for sizable tracts of land within the city for developing a regional park, but none could be found. HCMA then developed a plan for renovating and operating Belle Isle. This concept was taken before the voters of Detroit and was approved in the 1970 general election. In order to pay for the $40 million redevelopment plan, however, the HCMA needed more funding. So in the 1972 election, a request to increase the millage rate to .5 mils was put before the voters of the five counties. The proposition was defeated [[even in Detroit), so the HCMA then proposed to reduce the scope of the redevelopment plan, begin charging an entry fee to the Metroparks, and delay the plans for purchasing property in other parts of the region for the development of other Metroparks, in order to pay for the renovation and operation of the island park. By 1973, however, the administration within the City of Detroit had changed and the idea of having a regional agency control and operate one of Detroit's jewels was not acceptable. The plan for HCMA operating Belle Isle died.

Since that time, the HCMA has been involved in numerous discussions and plans to operate or help operate Fort Wayne and the State fairgrounds. Developing and operating either of these facilities by itself is well beyond the financial capability of the Metroparks[[over $10 million just to keep Fort Wayne from further deterioration, and over $50 million to develop a Metropark on the State Fairgrounds, plus annual operation costs of several million annually), but partnering with the City, DNR and Wayne County parks was considered a possibility. These potential operating partnerships have not developed however, for various reasons [[Several years ago, a memorandum of understanding for a joint venture at Fort Wayne between the HCMA, Wayne County Parks and the City of Detroit was approved by the HCMA Board and Wayne County Board, but was never approved by Detroit City council). The HCMA has also been asked to simply give a portion of its revenues back to the City of Detroit so that these funds could be added to the City's Parks and Recreation budget. This would be political and financial suicide for the HCMA. If such funding was made available to Detroit, what would keep other cities such as Warren, Pontiac and Ann Arbor, or any other local governmental unit in the region where no Metropark is located, from asking for funds?

HCMA is helping on Belle Isle. In 2004, the HCMA began working on Belle Isle in partnership with the Detroit Zoo to develop and conduct nature programming at the new Belle Isle Nature Zoo. The Metroparks agreed to commit up to three full-time naturalists and support funding to help conduct the programming at this facility.

While the Authority's funding is stable, like other agencies, its funding is tight and fully committed to existing parks and operations. The situation has changed since the early '70s when the Authority looked at operating Belle Isle. The HCMA is now a system of mature parks that are in need of major renovations themselves. With its existing budget and revenues, the HCMA could not afford to take on by itself the financial burden of operating Belle Isle much less undertake a $200 million renovation of the island's facilities. To take on more financial responsibility for operating Belle Isle, or even a portion of Belle Isle, would require the agency to reduce operations and even close some of its existing parks in other parts of the region.

The Metroparks will continue to work with the Detroit Zoo to develop and program the Belle Isle Nature Zoo, but it cannot afford to do more at the island park.

If you have further concerns or questions, please feel free to contact me.

Sincerely,

David Moilanen

HCMA Chief of Interpretive Services and Public Relations

[jt1]

Thanks Stosh. Even the PR person has pretty much stated - we can't do anything for you. The 'upto 3 resources' is I believe a half time resource.

This is just comical ", the HCMA could not afford to take on by itself the financial burden of operating Belle Isle much less undertake a $200 million renovation of the island's facilities."

I would like to know where they developed that number or are they just throwing out a huge number to say 'sorry, we can't do anything for you"

[Stosh]

I think that it's just an abomination that the City of Detroit has to pay this tax while not directly deriving a tangible benefit for the use of it's citizens. Granted, I'm sure that some use Kensington, Metro, and Stony Beach parks, but really, who goes to these other ones? I'd even include the inner suburbs in this group. Woefully under represented in respects to access to a Metropark.

How does one, I wonder, separate from an authority? By referendum? I'll bet that the millage from the COD would easily cover costs for Belle Isle. Perhaps even the threat of such a possibility would be enough to cast some cash out of the pockets of the HCMA.

[jt1]

Stoch - That has been my point all along.

While I support the idea of regionalism I dislike how regionalism is applied in Metro Detroit. People support regional funding for HCMA but don't support regional funding for taking care of the homeless. People support a regional tax on hotels but don't support regionalizing insurance rates.

Regionalism here is only applied out of convenience.

Things people support regionalizing:

The Zoo [[outside of the city)
HCMA [[outside of the city)
Water Authority [[currently city controlled but construed as a source of revenue)

Things people don't want regionalized:

Caring for the homeless [[burden on poorer cities)
Insurance costs [[burden on poorer cities)
Infrastructure [[burden on older cities)

Granted this is just a small snapshot but it is very telling of the attitude in SE Michigan.
This region is so backwards it is appalling.

I say the city should at least breing this to light. The question is how to do it without looking like typical fools on City Council

[Stosh]

I think that this may as well wait for the election in November to see who it is that takes office next year. Belle Isle funding will have to be discussed in a larger context of the budget as a whole.

[timmyjohn]

I love this park! I am going to have some of my wedding pictures taken there. We should ask the people that are trying to save things around the city that are not worth it... ie the Train station to put the effort in the park.

[Hypestyles]

if HCMA isn't interested, what about state of mich.. [[or has that been tried already)..

the city should charge a nominal fee for entrance to the park [[a daily pass.. also monthly passes).. to help offset the yearly maintenance costs.. i don't go to belle isle every day.. or even every month.. especially when its not late spring/summer.. I don't see what the big deal is.. various city departments need downsizing and/or a way to boost revenue..

unfortunately, especially with current city council and other 'activists', inevitably such a move would be smeared as a tactic to keep out african-american residents.. and suggesting any kind of regional oversight or outsourced management would be met with the same adversarialism as Cobo..

[nouthen]

I can hear the city council now, "this is a Detroit thing"

[detroitjim]

3. Bitch and do nothing

The Bitching part IS doing something!

Anything I saw yesterday could be easily and inexpensively rectified by the employees that are paid to perform their duties .

Why would anyone want to pay for a service and then pay again to do it themselves?

How come the personnel assigned to work on the island can't recognize simple things that can be done for the public's benefit and carry out those tasks in the interest of common courtesy?



The 200 million that the HCMA needed ,would have been for a new bridge linking our jewel to Canada, so southern Ontario folk could enjoy Ba-Lyle too!

[East Detroit]

Anyone know the status of the fountain? I think we last heard here that the plumbing was being replaced/repaired after vandalism.

Is it back in service?

[detmsp]

Stoch - That has been my point all along.

While I support the idea of regionalism I dislike how regionalism is applied in Metro Detroit. People support regional funding for HCMA but don't support regional funding for taking care of the homeless. People support a regional tax on hotels but don't support regionalizing insurance rates.

Regionalism here is only applied out of convenience.

Things people support regionalizing:

The Zoo [[outside of the city)
HCMA [[outside of the city)
Water Authority [[currently city controlled but construed as a source of revenue)

Things people don't want regionalized:

Caring for the homeless [[burden on poorer cities)
Insurance costs [[burden on poorer cities)
Infrastructure [[burden on older cities)

Granted this is just a small snapshot but it is very telling of the attitude in SE Michigan.
This region is so backwards it is appalling.

I say the city should at least breing this to light. The question is how to do it without looking like typical fools on City Council

by your logic the suburbs should have given detroit a big FU when it came to Cobo. you do realize that people in birmingham live just as far from these parks as people in detroit right? what are they supposed to do? make sure there is a park within a 5 mile radius of any given point in all the counties? detroit needs to support regional things in the suburbs and the suburbs have to support regional things in detroit. or another way to put it would be the REGION needs to support things in the REGION

[Todd_Scott]

Anyone know the status of the fountain? I think we last heard here that the plumbing was being replaced/repaired after vandalism.

Is it back in service?

Yes, it appears to be. It looked great last weekend.

[Stosh]

by your logic the suburbs should have given detroit a big FU when it came to Cobo. you do realize that people in birmingham live just as far from these parks as people in detroit right? what are they supposed to do? make sure there is a park within a 5 mile radius of any given point in all the counties? detroit needs to support regional things in the suburbs and the suburbs have to support regional things in detroit. or another way to put it would be the REGION needs to support things in the REGION

Let's put things into perspective. HCMA was created to develop large regional parks in the 5 county region. I've lived in the region a good number of years, and have used 3 of these parks, marginally if at all. I realize that's my fault, but I think the mission of the park system may need to change. Read the quote from the letter I posted earlier in this thread:

These regional parks were not intended to provide for all the outdoor recreational needs of the district. They were intended to complement the parks and recreation centers of municipalities, cities, townships, counties and the state, providing just a piece of the recreational puzzle for the residents of Southeast Michigan

Now, the recreational pieces of the above puzzle are being gutted by the cities and other entities through budget cuts due to the failure of Michigan to fix it's systemic budget shortfalls. I think that the region could use an urban metropark. And I think that Belle Isle fits the bill, on many levels.

Detroit has supported HCMA in the past 60 years through it's taxes. We as a region need to examine the HCMA and detrmine whether it is serving the Metro Region as effecively as it should be. The HCMA quoted a 200 million dollar renovation cost for Belle Isle that I question as accurate today as in 2005 when the letter has been written. I think the cost could be far below that due to the efforts of the people of the City and other concerned entities.

[jt1]

"by your logic the suburbs should have given detroit a big FU when it came to Cobo."

And many believe they should. I'm guessing if you pull the suburbs you'll get overwhelming support for funding the Rock Showplace. I am for regionalization if it is applied fairly but we have a region that does not work well and believes the poor/impoverished, etc should be dumped in Detroit, Pontiac and other poor areas.

"you do realize that people in birmingham live just as far from these parks as people in detroit right?"

Yes.

"what are they supposed to do? make sure there is a park within a 5 mile radius of any given point in all the counties?"

No, and I do not disagree with the mission of HCMA if the same logic and regional thinking were applied to other things in the region. They simply aren't.

"detroit needs to support regional things in the suburbs and the suburbs have to support regional things in detroit. or another way to put it would be the REGION needs to support things in the REGION "

I agree. I think that we as a region should regionalize car insurance, care for the homeless, care for the impoverished, force hospitals in the region to care for indigent equally, subsidize the cost of infrastrcuture in aged communitites, share legacy costs that were approved 30 years ago [[by many that have left the city eating the cost). What are your thoughts on regionalizing those things?

This backwoods area can't even support a regional tax for the arts.

I'm all for regionalism but not the selective regionalism applied here.

[jt1]

Jim - A few questions:

"The Bitching part IS doing something!

Anything I saw yesterday could be easily and inexpensively rectified by the employees that are paid to perform their duties ."

Did you contact anyone in parks and rec? I agree that this should not happen or be allowed to happen but did you at least make a single call or run to a forum and whine?

"Why would anyone want to pay for a service and then pay again to do it themselves?"

I don't think anyone 'wants' to but paying taxes doesn't completely absolve people of trying to better a community. By this thinking we should absolve community watch since we pay for police, we should never pick up garbage in our neighborhoods because we pay for trash services, we should never volunteer at schools because we pay taxes.

I agree the lack of leadership and lack of accoutnability are appalling but that doesn't mean that we should then just decide not to ever do anything even something as minor as making a phone call.

"How come the personnel assigned to work on the island can't recognize simple things that can be done for the public's benefit and carry out those tasks in the interest of common courtesy?"

I don't know and it is terribly frustrating. Who did you contact to voice your concerns?

[Lowell]

From my POV things are looking up. The handball courts are being renovated. In this picture you can see the peeling painted walls have been scraped in preparation for painting. Woo hoo.
Attachment 1476

Plumbing problems with Scott Fountain? Take a look for yourself.
Attachment 1477

The new walkways on the point are finished and landscaped.
Attachment 1478

And the old fugly rest facility has been replace by a nice one with an archway that frames the setting and invites entry and passage.
Attachment 1479

Finally where else can one find this most magnificent vista of our great international metropolis?
Attachment 1480

Could it be managed better? Sure. But JT1's point is spot on. Detroit is stuck bearing a social load that the rest of the communities manage to block out. This means continual budget cutbacks and continual syphoning off of management and public service talent to better paying and less challenging surrounding communities.

"Things people don't want regionalized:

Caring for the homeless [[burden on poorer cities)
Insurance costs [[burden on poorer cities)
Infrastructure [[burden on older cities)" and I would add...
Caring for the the huge majority of the metro's ex-felons, poor and disabled.

Spread those burden's equally among all the communities and the C of Detroit gets well overnight.

[Stosh]

Could it be managed better? Sure. But JT1's point is spot on. Detroit is stuck bearing a social load that the rest of the communities manage to block out. This means continual budget cutbacks and continual syphoning off of management and public service talent to better paying and less challenging surrounding communities.

"Things people don't want regionalized:

Caring for the homeless [[burden on poorer cities)
Insurance costs [[burden on poorer cities)
Infrastructure [[burden on older cities)" and I would add...
Caring for the the huge majority of the metro's ex-felons, poor and disabled.

Spread those burden's equally among all the communities and the C of Detroit gets well overnight.

I'd really take issue with the generalizations promoted above in regards to responsibilities borne by the COD.

Caring for the homeless .Admittedly, Detroit has it's disproportionate share of the homeless. And the causes of the homeless situation, [[drugs, economy, mental illness) need to be addressed first, before assessing any fair share argument. How would you propose to distribute this burden equally amongst the communities?

It's not an easy answer. Increasing beds in all communities for the homeless by utilizing churches could be a starting point. Getting everyone on board with at least one shelter in every city could work. Or would you distribute them by point of origin? Lots of them don't want to be rescued, either. They like the abandoned building they live in. Or the proximity to their crack fix. It's complicated.

Insurance Costs The costs are astronomical in the COD. Could it be due to the lack of policing? The frequency of thefts and robbery? The high cost of doing business in the city due to shoplifting? Spreading the costs around? It's all due to risk, I'd think. Fix the crime, fix the rates.

Infrastructure [[burden on older cities) That's a function of the state and federal revenue sharing, unfortunately the state and feds are just as systemically dysfunctional as the COD. Well, not quite. But there's got to be better cash management on the City side.

Think about just the water issue alone. The COD water department pumps thousands of gallons through vacant prarie fields where homes were once. There's a hidden cost, both in infrastructure and water losses. Maintenance to keep the pipes operating, the fire hydrants functional, etc, drains countless dollars from the rest of the city.

Caring for the the huge majority of the metro's ex-felons, poor and disabled
Why is that so? I think that's a symptom of the affordable housing problem, not any regional problem. Maybe there is a regional solution. Require every city with a population having an income above a certain percentage of the poverty rate, to have a percentage of their housing as affordable housing. Let's take Farmington, for an example. If Farmington has 95 percent of their people that have income above the poverty rate, a proportionate percentage of their housing should be made affordable. Inner ring suburbs which currently have largely affordable homes and significantly lower incomes would not be required to do so as much.