Visit to Belle Isle

[jt1]

"How would you propose to distribute this burden equally amongst the communities? "

Even distribution of care facilities, halfway houses, homeless shelters, etc. Right now the poorest cities in the region have the least political clout or resources to fight these facilities going up. Homeless tend to migrate to where services are and the services are in Detroit, Pontiac, Mt. Clemens, etc.

I say if we want real regionalization we evenly distribute the resources througout SE Michigan. What kind of support would there be for that [[look no further than the current fight in Ferndale)

"Insurance Costs The costs are astronomical in the COD. Could it be due to the lack of policing? The frequency of thefts and robbery? The high cost of doing business in the city due to shoplifting? Spreading the costs around? It's all due to risk, I'd think. Fix the crime, fix the rates."

Or we fix rates where SE Michigan is a pool. This is giving people the luxury of saying since it doesn't happen in their backyard they shoudln't be impacted. When we speak of regionalization there is no more unfair system in the state than the insurance structure. How would that me supported at a regional level?

"Infrastructure [[burden on older cities) That's a function of the state and federal revenue sharing, unfortunately the state and feds are just as systemically dysfunctional as the COD. Well, not quite. But there's got to be better cash management on the City side.

Think about just the water issue alone. The COD water department pumps thousands of gallons through vacant prarie fields where homes were once. There's a hidden cost, both in infrastructure and water losses. Maintenance to keep the pipes operating, the fire hydrants functional, etc, drains countless dollars from the rest of the city."

The COD water deaprtment also maintains miles and miles of pipes to get water to people 40-50 miles away yet these consumers aren't being charged a disprportionate rate due to their infrastructure needs. The costs are distributed to all rate payers - exactly the opposite of insurance. Funny, huh?

"Caring for the the huge majority of the metro's ex-felons, poor and disabled
Why is that so? I think that's a symptom of the affordable housing problem, not any regional problem. Maybe there is a regional solution. Require every city with a population having an income above a certain percentage of the poverty rate, to have a percentage of their housing as affordable housing. Let's take Farmington, for an example. If Farmington has 95 percent of their people that have income above the poverty rate, a proportionate percentage of their housing should be made affordable. Inner ring suburbs which currently have largely affordable homes and significantly lower incomes would not be required to do so as much. "

Or force communities to have half way houses ans services for the poor/disabled. Most communities do not offer services and services do not locate in wealthier areas. Again the ex-felons, poor, disabled must go to the services which are in the most impoverished areas in the region. Nice and convenient

[Stosh]

I say if we want real regionalization we evenly distribute the resources througout SE Michigan. What kind of support would there be for that [[look no further than the current fight in Ferndale)

Certainly. Maybe we should all offer to take in a homeless person, to get them on their feet. I don't see that problem becoming solved due to pressure like that in Ferndale.

Or we fix rates where SE Michigan is a pool. This is giving people the luxury of saying since it doesn't happen in their backyard they shoudln't be impacted. When we speak of regionalization there is no more unfair system in the state than the insurance structure. How would that me supported at a regional level?

Once again, insurance is based on RISK, not geography. Otherwise the whole scheme [[and it is a scheme) falls apart. Detroit's costs are completely out of line with reality, I think that should and could be addressed without smacking the rest of the region around, as you propose.

The COD water deaprtment also maintains miles and miles of pipes to get water to people 40-50 miles away yet these consumers aren't being charged a disprportionate rate due to their infrastructure needs. The costs are distributed to all rate payers - exactly the opposite of insurance. Funny, huh?

Wrong. Water rates are prorated by the distance the water is pumped. Wholesale rates are in the pdf in the link below.

http://www.dwsd.org/cust/sub_wholesale_water_rates.pdf

[Lowell]

" causes of the homeless situation, [[drugs, economy, mental illness) need to be addressed first"
Disagree ^ Care of the homeless should come first. They need help now. That said the cause should be attacked with equal vigor.

"How would you propose to distribute this burden equally amongst the communities?" I stated that as a hypothetical to emphasize how unfair it is that, let's say, with two families of middle income owning their homes, one in the innercity the other in the outercity, that the innercity family should be greatly penalized starting with higher costs of insurance and taxes, have to carry the burdens of the poor, beggary at every turn and other psychological costs. Having myself been both of those families the unfairness and the detriment to our entire metropolis created by this disparity makes me fight for the leveling of burdens. The innercity family should be rewarded with lower taxes and insurance than the 'safe' outercity communities in return for the extra burden they carry. This could be enabled by tax credits and state rebates. The idea is distribution of burdens to where the option of living in the innercity would equal [not surpass] that of the outercity.

"Fix the crime, fix the rates."
That is an argument for doing nothing. Crime will always be among us and since the innercity is stuck with almost all of the felon and ex-felon population they will always get red-lined with higher rates. I say, cut the rates, fix the crime.

"Require every city with a population having an income above a certain percentage of the poverty rate, to have a percentage of their housing as affordable housing."
Totally agree. However I again I stress the need for incentivization for innercity living. As for Farmington [not the Hills but they have this issue too], where I am now from, its southern areas already are suffering the fate of other inner ring outer cities, housing decline, business abandonment and more. The other piece of this puzzle is the walling off of sprawl which is eating all our children.

[Stosh]

Care of the homeless should come first. They need help now. That said the cause should be attacked with equal vigor.

I suppose that I'd have to take a real look around me, if I were homeless. I'd assess my prospescts here, versus somewhere else, then take the action that would make the most sense for me. Depending on a state that is virtually bankrupt for some kind of help or social services isn't a successful scenario. I understand that some, or most of the homeless have no way to escape the area, it's just a damn shame that jobs aren't here anymore.

"How would you propose to distribute this burden equally amongst the communities?" I stated that as a hypothetical to emphasize how unfair it is that, let's say, with two families of middle income owning their homes, one in the innercity the other in the outercity, that the innercity family should be greatly penalized starting with higher costs of insurance and taxes, have to carry the burdens of the poor, beggary at every turn and other psychological costs. Having myself been both of those families the unfairness and the detriment to our entire metropolis created by this disparity makes me fight for the leveling of burdens. The innercity family should be rewarded with lower taxes and insurance than the 'safe' outercity communities in return for the extra burden they carry. This could be enabled by tax credits and state rebates. The idea is distribution of burdens to where the option of living in the innercity would equal [not surpass] that of the outercity.

It seems to me that the citizens that can, are voting with their feet in astronomical numbers. Having been on both sides of the fence of inner/outer city, I can say that having to bear the burden of the poor is trivial considering having to bear the burden of incompetent city government.

Beggary? I really can't say that's any different than dealing with people at the freeway exit/entrance ramps. And some of them get into nicer cars that I have. Go figure. And it seems that the only psychological costs that are incurred are crime related, in one way or another.

Everyone should be rewarded with lower taxes and insurance. I recognize that Detroit's tax structure is dysfunctional, so is it's government. The state and federal government can't afford to subsidize where people live. Somehow weighting the scale of where one lives would truly destroy us all.

[jt1]

"Certainly. Maybe we should all offer to take in a homeless person, to get them on their feet. I don't see that problem becoming solved due to pressure like that in Ferndale."

Being flippant about it does not change the inequalities the poorest cities face in this region.

"Once again, insurance is based on RISK, not geography. Otherwise the whole scheme [[and it is a scheme) falls apart. Detroit's costs are completely out of line with reality, I think that should and could be addressed without smacking the rest of the region around, as you propose."

RISK is defined by a geographic boundary. Why do we choose to limit broundaries where risk is set up to negatively impact some areas but not others that border them?

"Wrong. Water rates are prorated by the distance the water is pumped. Wholesale rates are in the pdf in the link below."

You are correct about rates but the distance the water is pumped and the associated rates do not offset the infrastructure costs. There are additional factors such as usage at peak demand but the cost of new infrastucture or updates is borne by all rate payers. If a new line is added 30 miles away due to increase volume you can be certainly that capital cost is easten by everyone.

[Locke09]

Higher insurance rates in Detroit are not just a factor of the risks associated with crime. Detroiters would welcome a break on just "No fault" auto insurance for a start. That should only be determined by driving record and maybe the risks associated with age/sex. It should not include geography as a factor. There are regions where it has been shown that the accident rate is higher than in Detroit, but the auto insurance rates are lower than in Detroit. I can see theft insurance being higher, but not the rest. Same for fire insurance.

[Det_ard]

Examine the budgets of local homeless shelters and you'll find a lot more money coming from Federal taxpayers, State taxpayers and non-Detroit charitable organizations and benefactors than from the City or the people of the City. The same goes for housing for ex-felons, the poor and the disabled.

[LodgeDodger]

I love this park! I am going to have some of my wedding pictures taken there. We should ask the people that are trying to save things around the city that are not worth it... ie the Train station to put the effort in the park.

Tell me your post was a joke.

[LodgeDodger]

The Bitching part IS doing something!

Anything I saw yesterday could be easily and inexpensively rectified by the employees that are paid to perform their duties .

Why would anyone want to pay for a service and then pay again to do it themselves?

How come the personnel assigned to work on the island can't recognize simple things that can be done for the public's benefit and carry out those tasks in the interest of common courtesy?

The 200 million that the HCMA needed ,would have been for a new bridge linking our jewel to Canada, so southern Ontario folk could enjoy Ba-Lyle too!

Have you considered that perhaps the island workers are spread a little thin?

[Locke09]

Examine the budgets of local homeless shelters and you'll find a lot more money coming from Federal taxpayers, State taxpayers and non-Detroit charitable organizations and benefactors than from the City or the people of the City. The same goes for housing for ex-felons, the poor and the disabled.

I think the question is not just where the funding comes from. In fact, I don't think that any of it comes from Detroit's budget [[but don't forget, Detroiters pay State and Federal taxes too).

The question is more, where they are all housed. I can tell you that a neighborhood changes with an influx of half-way houses for felons and group homes for juveniles and the mentally ill. They have to live somewhere, but if too many are concentrated in Detroit, that creates the burden.

BTW, I heard Kym Worthy talking about some prisoners being released early soon. They probably will mostly end up in Detroit, and they probably won't have jobs. Guess what impact that will have this summer.

[Stosh]

[quote]Being flippant about it does not change the inequalities the poorest cities face in this region. [quote]

Who's being flippant? It's a serious answer, if one is truly serious about helping the homeless. I've taken in people from time to time, that needed a hand up. I can't say I'd recommend that strategy by applying it to strangers, but I'm sure someone knows these people, right?

RISK is defined by a geographic boundary. Why do we choose to limit broundaries where risk is set up to negatively impact some areas but not others that border them?

Risk is set upon a geographic boundary because of the inability of the police to come in a timely manner when called. The criminals know this, so they prey upon those that live within that geographic boundary.

You are correct about rates but the distance the water is pumped and the associated rates do not offset the infrastructure costs. There are additional factors such as usage at peak demand but the cost of new infrastucture or updates is borne by all rate payers. If a new line is added 30 miles away due to increase volume you can be certainly that capital cost is easten by everyone.

The capital costs of infrastructure usually are borne initially by developers branching off the mains, if I'm not mistaken.If not, then it should be, and the cost spread out to the residents and businesses built. The maintance on the water lines thereafter are usually the responsibility of the city governments, who jack up the wholesale rate at their pleasure, sometimes tripling it to pay for their water dept. toys.

[detroitjim]

Did you contact anyone in parks and rec? I agree that this should not happen or be allowed to happen but did you at least make a single call or run to a forum and whine?

Who did you contact to voice your concerns?

These situations did not just materialize this past monday when I visited the park. The shell of the comfort station structure has been basically completed for about eight months. Even most brain dead people have a certain amount anticipatory skills. Wait a minute I will help you out with excuses for them. Employment standards only require an eighth grade education.
Yeah ,that's it!
Lets just start doing their job for them or maybe YOU can volunteer to do it for them.

I don't think anyone 'wants' to but paying taxes doesn't completely absolve people of trying to better a community. By this thinking we should absolve[[dissolve?) community watch since we pay for police, we should never pick up garbage in our neighborhoods because we pay for trash services, we should never volunteer at schools because we pay taxes.

Or maybe by your thinking we don't need to pay anyone for doing these jobs.
We will have an all volunteer work force. That would be the ultimate for a community. Riiiight.

[French777]

I can tell you one thing about the Metroparks is that they definitely are having cut-backs. When I went to Stoney Creek Metropark. Much of the grass is at least 2ft tall. It looks like they have cut back on their mowing services all throughout the park.

[timmyjohn]

That is not a joke.!!!
Are you the kind of person who spends there time saving the old buildings?

[LodgeDodger]

That is not a joke.!!!
Are you the kind of person who spends there time saving the old buildings?

Timmy, if the state of Belle Isle concerns you, perhaps you should lead the charge to clean up the island.

[oladub]

Suggestions-

1) Institute user fees. [[already mentioned) The fees could be used to pay for security, restroom staff, etc. Would an extra 50 police patrolling the Island on Saturday evening be unreasonable? Detroit is simply too broke to run the Island. All fees could be used to improve the park experience.

2) Ask the Metropolitan Park Authority what they would need in terms of dollars and autonomy to run the Island.

3) Transfer Belle Isle's property title from Detroit to the park authority or establish a long turn lease giving the park authority total control to charge admittance, refuse admittance to past troublemakers, police the Island, run concessions, and otherwise run the Island.

[timmyjohn]

For one I never said that I had concerns about the state of the park. I said people spend so much time saving things that will cost more then they will make. It will cost so much to fix the train station then what will we do with it? If the city will put money in Belle Isle Zoo people will go. As for the clean up you can have a crew of people clean but if you have people that go there that dont care about it and trash it the effort is worth less. I work at a camp for the summer and we dont have a crew that just cleans we have a saying "It is your camp, help keep it clean" it works and if campers see other not following this they remind then to clean up after your self.

[LodgeDodger]

For one I never said that I had concerns about the state of the park. I said people spend so much time saving things that will cost more then they will make. It will cost so much to fix the train station then what will we do with it? If the city will put money in Belle Isle Zoo people will go. As for the clean up you can have a crew of people clean but if you have people that go there that dont care about it and trash it the effort is worth less. I work at a camp for the summer and we dont have a crew that just cleans we have a saying "It is your camp, help keep it clean" it works and if campers see other not following this they remind then to clean up after your self.

Timmy, to suggest those who are trying to save the train station to take up the Belle Isle cause was insensitive. You may think saving the train station is a waste of money, but for some, it isn't a waste. They are passionate about preserving our city's architectural history. That said, I often read on this forum comments that state others should "do this" and "do that" about various hot button issues. "They" aren't going to take up a cause as "they" are probably fighting for something they believe in.

I'm one of those people who, on occasion, show up to clean the island. I know how dirty it can become. The problem is many visitors don't clean up after themselves. Island maintenance is stretched thin. Put those two together and you get the current conditions.

[irish_mafia]

Took my boat down to Toledo yesterday with my son. Island looked beautiful. Scott fountain was blasting away.