Which is the better Civil War memorial?

**Ray1936** · July-27-11, 06:01 PM

With the 150th anniversary of the Civl War upon us, I'm forced to ask this question. Who has the better Civil War memorial: Cleveland or Detroit. [[ ? )

Top one is Cleveland. Bottom one we've all seen.

**Jimaz** · July-27-11, 06:29 PM

For reference, respectively:

Soldiers' and Sailors' Monument [[Cleveland)
Michigan Soldiers' and Sailors' Monument

**mikefmich** · July-27-11, 09:53 PM

Cleveland.

The numbers that Ohio gave to the war were staggering...I think they were the top 2nd or 3rd state, I know NY was first.

Probably close to 4 times the number of troops furnished by Michigan.

**Carey** · July-27-11, 09:56 PM

Ohio had almost four times as many residents as Michigan in the 1860s. Top three states in population in 1860: NY, PA, Ohio

**mikefmich** · July-27-11, 09:59 PM

Ok I just looked.....Ohio's total was third behind NY>PA

**rjk** · July-27-11, 10:17 PM

Detroit's is nice, but I don't think it anywhere near as impressive as the Cleveland monument.
Whenever I'm in Cleveland it's also a place I make a point to visit.

**EastsideAl** · July-27-11, 10:59 PM

Indianapolis.

**Kathleen** · July-27-11, 11:23 PM

Thanks, Eastside Al! As I was reading through this thread, I thought about Indianapolis' Civil War Monument. It is as nice or even nicer than Cleveland's. And both are nicer than Detroit's because you can go inside and up to the top [[or you could in the past).

**mikefmich** · July-28-11, 12:00 AM

GAR did their final encampent in Indy....all 4 or 5 of them left. I've got a cover around here somewhere from that event.

Impressive monument in Indy.

**hamtown mike** · July-28-11, 09:41 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think Detroit's monument now commemorates all soldiers of all wars.

**Novine** · July-28-11, 10:06 AM

I don't think the Indy memorial is technically a "Civil War" memorial although it was built only a few years after the Cleveland monument.

**Bigb23** · July-28-11, 10:18 AM

I know this doesn't pertain to the original question, but my vote goes to Indy. In fact,
other than maybe the churches, that seems to be the tallest structure in the city at the time.

**Ray1936** · July-28-11, 11:07 AM

Yeah, Indy looks probably #1 to me, although Cleveland is very close behind. I wonder of those cities also have an old GAR building like Detroit does on Grand River, though.

**Wintersmommy** · July-28-11, 11:52 AM

[QUOTE=mikefmich;261355]Cleveland.

The numbers that Ohio gave to the war were staggering...QUOTE]

my ggg-grandpappy was one of them, he was a 1st Lieutenant in the 68th O.V.I
I got all kinds of ambitious this year for the 150th anniversary and started researching him. Found all kinds of amazing documents and facts. He wounded in the battle of Champions Hill during the seige of Vicksburg, fought during the battles at Shiloh and Kennesaw Mountain Ga [[ and just about everything in between) then Joined Sherman marching through Atlanta.
Ohio keeps VERY good records on their civil war soldiers and I was able to get copies of letters he sent to the Perrysburg journal and Toledo Blade as well as hand written letters from him to a general and his commanders recommending him for 1st Lieutenant status.

that being said both monuments are lovely!sorry to thread jack...got all excited about the topic

**PlymouthRes** · July-28-11, 12:44 PM

I would highly recommend a new book, written by a friend and one of the foremost historians on Michigan and it's involvement in the CW entitled "Michigan and the Civil War: A Great and Bloody Sacrifice", by a fellow named Jack Dempsey.

It is quite definitive in it's portrayal of Michigans participation,and includes chapters highlighting the many monuments, battles fought and lives lost. It also has an extensive bibliography which substantiates all that is within.

At 149 pages, I was able to finish it in two days.

Plymouthres

**Bigb23** · July-28-11, 12:53 PM

While we're at it, here's a quite interesting take of my ancestor. And Gazhekwe, have you noticed this site yet? I'd like to know who did it, because the history and photos are so extensive. Follow the links to the Kin-Ne-Quay Pdf. Exactly like the originals I gave you!
It was also my understanding that he was honored for heroism at the Battle of the Crater, that has been featured in so many movies and documentaries.

Payson Wolfe enlisted 3 Aug 1863 at Northport for 3 years. He was 30 then and already the father of several small children. He mustered 8 Aug 1863. He was a member of the all-Indian Company K of the 1st Michigan Sharpshooters. He was taken prisoner 17 Jun 1864 at Petersburg, spent 3 weeks in Libby Prison and survived 5 months at the Andersonville POW camp. He was paroled from Andersonville in December 1864 and returned to Northport for several weeks, then returned to his regiment. He was discharged at Camp Chase, OH 13 Jun 1865.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~waukazoo/Payson.html

And here is a site with quite unusual Civil War documents and photos uploaded for viewing. Including Black, Mexican and Indian Regiments.

Antoine Scott, a Chippewa Indian, was one of more than 20,000 Native Americans who served in the Civil War. He enlisted on July 4, 1863, with Company K of the 1st Michigan Sharpshooters--one of the largest units of Native Americans serving the Union east of the Mississippi. Native Americans fought in both armies.

Passing As A Man
Neither the Union nor the Confederate Army allowed women to enlist. However, hundreds of women served by passing as men. Sarah Emma Edmonds, alias Frank Thompson, passed as a man for two years with Company F, 2nd Michigan Infantry Volunteers. She deserted after contracting malaria and fearing she would be discovered. When she later filed for an invalid pension under her married name of Seelye, one of her fellow soldiers provided this testimony regarding her service.

http://www.ourarchives.wikispaces.ne...e+There#Native

And a book excerpt about Michigan Regiments.

http://tinyurl.com/43wm38t

**gnome** · July-28-11, 01:51 PM

BigB, Antoine Scott was nominated twice for the Medal of Honor, once for action in the Battle of the Wilderness [[I think) and the other at The Crater at Petersburg. Both awards were denied because he was an Indian. He died in 1876 or so of syphlis and is buried somewhere in Mason County near Pentwater/Ludington. I've been looking for him for about 10 years without much luck.

A good book on the First US Sharpshooters is titled, "these men have seen hard service" IIRC. Written by some guy who taught at a community college up north. The book devotes a good deal of space to Company K Indians and their commander, Col. Deland.

**Bigb23** · July-28-11, 02:17 PM

gnome - that's the tiny url in the above post. There's about 176 pages on the site for viewing! A lot of stories on there about Fort Dearborn and Fort Wayne.

Also - sorry for the threadjack Ray, but this is a good platform to honor all veterans of the Civil War.

**kryptonite** · July-28-11, 02:55 PM

My vote goes for Detroit's Sailors and Soldiers monument. For the simple reason I have always loved the statue at the top, very dramatic.

There is nothing wrong with Clevleland's monument btw, it's very impressive as well.

**Gistok** · July-28-11, 03:21 PM

The 352 ft. Perry's Victory Memorial in Put-In-Bay in Lake Erie dwarfs all other monuments in the midwest. The giant Doric column with a large urn at the top... commemorates Admiral Perry's naval battle against the British in the 1813 [[during the War of 1812).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perry's...Peace_Memorial

**Ray1936** · July-28-11, 03:56 PM

Actually, all three are fitting and imposive

While on the subject, here's three photos I accumulated from three different sources. When I put them together, I was amazed, all were obviously taken in the same studio. Would it have been on the same day? Probably. The three are my gt grandfather, Benj. Downing [[left), and his two cousins, William Downing [[center) and Joseph Downing [[right). Based on their apparent ranks, the photo had to be taken in late 1863.

Ben [[1841 - 1908) and Joe [[1843 - 1917) survived the war. William [[1842 - 1864) was killed at the battle of Spottsylvania. They belonged to the 49th Pennsylvania Volunteers.

**kryptonite** · July-28-11, 05:59 PM

Any CSA descendants on Dyes? My family is from Alabama and Tennessee.

Oddly, my mother's home county in Alabama [[Winston County), seceded from the Confederacy briefly as an independent state.

No doubt my GG grandfathers and uncles fought for the south.

**Hermod** · July-28-11, 06:40 PM

A Cherokee Indian, Stand Watie, was a brigadier general in the rebel army.

**mikefmich** · July-29-11, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by Ray1936

Actually, all three are fitting and imposive

While on the subject, here's three photos I accumulated from three different sources. When I put them together, I was amazed, all were obviously taken in the same studio. Would it have been on the same day? Probably. The three are my gt grandfather, Benj. Downing [[left), and his two cousins, William Downing [[center) and Joseph Downing [[right). Based on their apparent ranks, the photo had to be taken in late 1863.

Ben [[1841 - 1908) and Joe [[1843 - 1917) survived the war. William [[1842 - 1864) was killed at the battle of Spottsylvania. They belonged to the 49th Pennsylvania Volunteers.

I'm jealous.....I have photographs of many of my Civil War guys, but none while in uniform.

**Ray1936** · July-29-11, 11:06 AM

Mike, I located the photo of Joseph in the Library of Congress web site; the photo of William from the Chester county [[PA) historical archives, and the photo of gt gramps on an U.S. Army website. I'm still amazed that I put all three together. I also have photos of the grave markers of all three; one at the Spottsylvania National Cemetery, one in Philadelphia, and one in Wichita, KS.