Wurlitzer or Metropolitan

[esp1986]

For what its worth, my sister and brother in law live in Chicago [[not downtown) car-free and are members of Zipcar. They are pretty happy with the service.

For what it's worth, all of the ammenities one would need in Chicago are not only in the city, but usually accessible via mass transit, something Detroit inherently lacks. For someone in business, it is a royal pain in the ass to not have a car in Metro Detroit. Despite working and living in Detroit, you could have one meeting in Troy and an hour later have one in Taylor, on a regular basis. In Chicago, 80-90% of business is within reach of mass transit. Not exactly a situation tailored to not having a car. This is not uncommon either. I have many friends in the same boat.

[jsmyers]

For what it's worth, all of the ammenities one would need in Chicago are not only in the city, but usually accessible via mass transit, something Detroit inherently lacks. For someone in business, it is a royal pain in the ass to not have a car in Metro Detroit. Despite working and living in Detroit, you could have one meeting in Troy and an hour later have one in Taylor, on a regular basis. In Chicago, 80-90% of business is within reach of mass transit. Not exactly a situation tailored to not having a car. This is not uncommon either. I have many friends in the same boat.

I didn't say that Detroit and Chicago are the same. I was only responding to: "Does anyone here that brings up carsharing services such as zipcar even use it? Anyone?"

There is also a big difference between discussing things as they are now, and as they may be in 5-10 years.

And I think if you look at employment density in Chicagoland, you'll find that a whole lot of edge city jobs are not transit accessible.

[esp1986]

I didn't say that Detroit and Chicago are the same. I was only responding to: "Does anyone here that brings up carsharing services such as zipcar even use it? Anyone?"

There is also a big difference between discussing things as they are now, and as they may be in 5-10 years.

And I think if you look at employment density in Chicagoland, you'll find that a whole lot of edge city jobs are not transit accessible.

No question, a lot of jobs in Chicago are not accessible, but that only accounts for 15-20% of what's there. There is so much density compared to here.

The problem here, is that there aren't really even any densely populated corridors. Even the corridors proposed for LRT aren't densely populated, the whole region is spread out.

To think that a lot can change in 5-10 years is asinine. Sure, we can make some progress, but with about 50 years worth of backwards thinking and infrastructure to support it, it will probably take at least another 50 years to get back to where we were.

I hate being the pessimistic one, but it is simply economic reality. You have to realize, the City of Detroit's population is currently about one-third of what it peaked at in the 1950s. Everybody simply moving back to the city will not solve any problems, unfortunately, because that will cause an influx of vacancies in the suburbs, so people will likely flock back to the cheap real estate. The region itself has also lost a lot of population, and only with time, along with a steady flow of people back into the city will the region ever get back to where it was.

Chicago for example has had over 100 years to build up around their mass transit system. The 'L' was built before cars really became a prevalent mode of transportation. Chicago was built largely around The 'L'. So even though there may be a few jobs that wouldn't be accessible by train, it sure beats the number in Detroit, which would likely be 40-50%. And again, everybody isn't just going to get up and move. Over time people and businesses will, but that's what it takes, time. So even if a whole lot changes in the next 50 years, people will still need cars in Detroit.

[jsmyers]

esp1986, I wish you wouldn't act like I'm attacking you. We don't really disagree much anyway. You're right that things are "going back" in 5-10 years. But I'm pretty sure than 5-10 years from now a redeveloped Wurlitzer and car sharing in Detroit are very strong possibilities. That is all I'm claiming.

Five years ago, the Book Cadillac was a dead project, and the Broderick tower redevelopment was a joke. I don't know for sure, but I don't think that Zipcar was in AA either. I don't remember it from 2006, when I moved from AA to Detroit.

[esp1986]

esp1986, I wish you would act like I'm attacking you. We don't really disagree much anyway. You're right that things are "going back" in 5-10 years. But I'm pretty sure than 5-10 years from now a redeveloped Wurlitzer and car sharing in Detroit are very strong possibilities. That is all I'm claiming.

Five years ago, the Book Cadillac was a dead project, and the Broderick tower redevelopment was a joke. I don't know for sure, but I don't think that Zipcar was in AA either. I don't remember it from 2006, when I moved from AA to Detroit.

I don't disagree. Some people may be able to get by with sharing a car every now and then. However, the point I am making, is the majority of the population will still have to own a car, that being the reason that almost no project in Detroit will be done without a designated place to park. A designated parking area, whether attached, across the street, whatever, will for a long time be a selling point for residential developments in the city.

[wolverine]

For what its worth, my sister and brother in law live in Chicago [[not downtown) car-free and are members of Zipcar. They are pretty happy with the service.

Obviously everyone will have a different take. I'm driving a car probably 4-5 hours per month, but again, I'm sticking with membership because I'm required to. I have no other driving option otherwise...except maybe full day rentals from enterprise or hertz.

For cities that are dense urban areas, the program is completely justified. It's expensive to own, insure, and park a car here in Chicago. With zipcar, the hourly rates are high, but when you look at it in the long run, it's justified because you drive infrequently and everything you need is within walking distance.

But what about Detroit, where most places require you to drive to get to them in a reasonable amount of time?

No. This is not the kind of service you want to be using. You will quickly find that your expenses of using carsharing quickly double those of owning.

Trust me, as someone who has been able to compare both first hand, it just isn't going to work well in Detroit, even if they try to force it to work.

[313rd]

Right. Parking structures are insanely costly to build, and those two buildings are odd-shaped and nowhere near large enough to build a functional structure on. Typical parking structures often occupy an entire city block.

Parking Structures can run from $10,000 to $15,000 per spot to build from ground up.

[erikd]

Problem is, even with a walkable downtown, a car is still a necessity in this region. Having an attached parking garage for residents will continue to be a big selling point as long as we live in such an autocentric region, therefore, developers will continue to necessitate parking garages.

I don't see why attached parking would be a requirement for redeveloping the Wurlitzer Building. There are a number of buildings close to the Wurlitzer, of somewhat similar size and footprint, that have been redeveloped over the last few years without any attached, dedicated parking. The Eureka, Hartz, 1260 Library, and Library Lofts all come to mind. The recently renovated Lafer Building, located just a block and a half down Broadway, is almost identical in size and footprint to the Wurlitzer, and they don't have a dedicated parking garage or lot.

As far as tearing down the Wurlitzer to make room for a parking garage for the Metropolitan, it simply wouldn't work because the lot is far too small, and the DPM runs over the corner lot next to it.

[BrushStart]

Parking Structures can run from $10,000 to $15,000 per spot to build from ground up.

Exactly. So, if you assume that the structure cost $12,500/spot and you charged tenants $80/month [[the going rate) to park, it would take 13 years just to pay off each spot. That is assuming that you paid cash and did not borrow the money and that your garage is at 100% capacity for the entire period. Small parking garages do not work unless the value of the land is astronomical and space is extremely limited. In Detroit, it only makes sense to build large, sprawling parking structures that have a large footprint.

[mikeg19]

I'm not sure of the current capacity or if it's even an option, but what about the Hudson's underground parking structure? It's right there. I'm not sure how many spots are spoken for in that garage.

[lukabottle]

I used ZipCar regularly in Oakland, CA and now in Pittsburgh. The amount of money I have saved not having a car is huge. For longer trips over 180 miles, a standard car rental company makes more sense.

Before moving to Oakland, I gave up my car the last 6 months I lived in Detroit. Granted, I lived in Cass Park, so proximity to WSU and to Downtown made it easy. Many of my friends in Detroit don't have cars. If I move back to the City [[as I hope to do), I plan on not having a car. The stress relief from not dealing with gas, car insurance rates, and repairs was huge. I really hope ZipCar comes to Detroit. I definitely think there is a market for it in Downtown, Corktown, Midtown, and other nearby neighborhoods.

[agrahlma]

Saw a crew pumping water out of the Wurlitzer building on Sunday. One of the gates was moved back and nobody was around -- I was tempted to walk in and check it out.

[noggin]

For sale link.

[mikeg19]

$850k? I thought he originally wanted around $2 million for it?

[BrushStart]

Is $850k a good deal for this? The Stott just went for something like that same amount and it is a substantially larger building in what appears to be substantially better shape.

[Gistok]

$850k? I thought he originally wanted around $2 million for it?

When the former Ritz Carlton in Dearborn sold for $3 million.... perhaps a lightbulb in the Wurlitzer's owners head went on?

[GOAT]

Its worth about $250,000 considering the amount of work and only if the taxes are up to date and the city and state offer massive tax abatements. Then and only then is this once beautiful gem worth it.

[detroiter79]

Why would one need to go for the other to be saved? There is ample parking everywhere and neither building has a large enough footprint for a parking structure. Actually, the best chance either one has to be saved, is if the other is renovated.

Ample parking? In Detroit? I think you'll find that a majority of large tenants looking to come into the city are citing the lack of parking as the number reason for not making a move downtown. Take a look at the cover of Crain's this week, David Friedman's entire strategy for Dan Gilbert was centered around parking.

[jsmyers]

Trust me, as someone who has been able to compare both first hand, it just isn't going to work well in Detroit, even if they try to force it to work.

We'll see: Zipcar in Midtown