Let 'em burn [Should DFD Firefighters allow abandoned houses to burn down]

[mkhopper]

Ok, I'm probably going to get flamed for this [[no pun intended), but it's a question that's been bugging me for awhile.

Some time ago my family and I stopped in at good ol' Scotty Simpsons for dinner. Afterwards we just sort of cruised around the streets of the Brightmoor neighborhood since it's been quite awhile since we've seen the area.

I liked seeing the number of small urban farms cropping up [[on man.. more puns) here and there where houses once stood, but we were floored by the sheer number of burned out husks of what used to be homes. I think the number of abandoned, burned out houses outnumbered the those you could barely deem as livable.

So, to my question. When one of these houses goes up in flames, why bother taking the time and risk of life to put it out? Seems to me like that once the fire dept leaves, that house is now more of a danger than it was when it was intact. Questionable floors, roofs that look like they could collapse if a stiff wind blows in, etc.... Why not just let them burn to the ground and be done with it? Yes, work to prevent any surrounding structures from igniting, but why not just treat the house as a controlled burn and let it go.

[mwilbert]

I'm no expert on fires, but here are a few possible reasons:

1) There is going to be some risk of the fire spreading as long as it is burning, so you have to keep an eye on it for the duration--better to put it out and be free to attend to other fires.

2) Who knows what kind of crud is going into the air?

3) Even if you let the building burn, it probably isn't going to disappear--you're still going to have something hazardous remaining.

It would be a really good thing if the city had the money to raze all the burned-out hulks that are still hanging around. The problem is that proper demolition costs money, unlike random fires.

[iheartthed]

Ok, I'm probably going to get flamed for this [[no pun intended), but it's a question that's been bugging me for awhile.

Some time ago my family and I stopped in at good ol' Scotty Simpsons for dinner. Afterwards we just sort of cruised around the streets of the Brightmoor neighborhood since it's been quite awhile since we've seen the area.

I liked seeing the number of small urban farms cropping up [[on man.. more puns) here and there where houses once stood, but we were floored by the sheer number of burned out husks of what used to be homes. I think the number of abandoned, burned out houses outnumbered the those you could barely deem as livable.

So, to my question. When one of these houses goes up in flames, why bother taking the time and risk of life to put it out? Seems to me like that once the fire dept leaves, that house is now more of a danger than it was when it was intact. Questionable floors, roofs that look like they could collapse if a stiff wind blows in, etc.... Why not just let them burn to the ground and be done with it? Yes, work to prevent any surrounding structures from igniting, but why not just treat the house as a controlled burn and let it go.

Remember the windstorm that blew down a power line which sparked a blaze that nearly took out an entire neighborhood?

[sirrealone]

When a home is engulfed in flames, the firefighters have no assurances that there isn't

a) a person or
b) dangerous chemicals

inside. Without knowing either of these things for sure, the fire has to be put out.

[lilpup]

Watching it burn to the ground also ties up the fire crew for too long - other calls need to be answered, too.

[Crumbled_pavement]

Better question that I have is why so many houses in Detroit are burnt out to begin with? The same type of neighborhoods exist in some of the suburbs without any of the same problems. I just can't understand how it is so easy and convenient inside the city limits of Detroit to just burn up a house and move on.

[lilpup]

Most of the suburban neighborhoods are newer housing stock or have changed hands enough that they've kept pace with current code. Another point is that suburban houses have more space between them so that when one goes up in flames the next typically doesn't. Thirdly, the suburban houses usually aren't rentals with absentee landlords and have nearby neighbors who keep an eye on them instead of being surrounded by other vacant houses.

[wolverine]

There still needs to be an investigation into cause of fire as well. Is it arson or an accident? Just letting them burn is doing a favor to the arsonists.

[Goose]

there is a house on the corner of warren and seyburn, did inspections for the bank, google maps show it occupied, its been vacant for at least a year... first inspection it was secured but completly trashed.... second inspection about three months later, someone got in the house and doused the interior with used motor oil, all over the walls, soaked into the hardwood floors, stuffed the old oil containers into the walls where there were holes.... this wasn't an attempt to collect insurance as it was vacant, uninsured, and bank owned.... it was pure set up for a fire bug....

[Hamtragedy]

Over the years I've watched bigger homes burn on the Blvd near Belle Isle, usually brick, and usually in the winter, which led me to conclude that vagrants were getting into the houses, once vacated, then burning whatever they could find in the fire place.

When it got really cold, they would burn the trim. When the small trim ran out, they would burn the bigger trim which hung out onto the floor, which in turn would eventually light the oak flooring on fire, eventually destroying a stately home, literally, within weeks after being vacated.

[softailrider]

Better question that I have is why so many houses in Detroit are burnt out to begin with? The same type of neighborhoods exist in some of the suburbs without any of the same problems. I just can't understand how it is so easy and convenient inside the city limits of Detroit to just burn up a house and move on.

Take out an insurance policy on a nearly worthless house, set it on fire, if the company doesn't pay, what have you lost? In other cities, you wouldn't do it, but in Detroit it's fine, there isn't anyone who's going to go after you.

Pretty sad situation, isn't it?

[hamtown mike]

One went up across the street from me the other day. Vacant, falling apart. Normally I would say that a firefighter's life or risk of injury is not worth the house's $3000 market value.

I'd normally say let it burn but there were and still are two occupied homes on either side thanks to the efforts and quick response by the ....

[Crumbled_pavement]

Take out an insurance policy on a nearly worthless house, set it on fire, if the company doesn't pay, what have you lost? In other cities, you wouldn't do it, but in Detroit it's fine, there isn't anyone who's going to go after you.

Pretty sad situation, isn't it?

You pretty much said what I was hinting at. It's a shame that it is not considered worthwhile to anyone to maintain Detroit's housing stock.

[Zacha341]

Insurance? In most cases these homes are UNINSURED! Ask the people who live there if they can get insurance. And if you can it's astronomical in price. No insurance company is going to write a policy on a derelict home. Retailers are having a hard time affording insurance in Detroit.

Take out an insurance policy on a nearly worthless house, set it on fire, if the company doesn't pay, what have you lost? In other cities, you wouldn't do it, but in Detroit it's fine, there isn't anyone who's going to go after you.

Pretty sad situation, isn't it?

[Carey]

Detroit's arson problem has been out of control for years, and no one even knows how many deliberately set fires take place.

The arson squad is stretched so thin that it can't investigate every fire whose origin is deemed "suspicious." Squad members generally investigate only those involving death, injury or huge property loss.

[Crumbled_pavement]

Detroit's arson problem has been out of control for years, and no one even knows how many deliberately set fires take place.

The arson squad is stretched so thin that it can't investigate every fire whose origin is deemed "suspicious." Squad members generally investigate only those involving death, injury or huge property loss.

You'd think the enormous loss of property taxes would make it worthwhile for the city to be more aggressive investigating these issues. They could hire more staff and/or have the state get more involved - surely Michigan is losing property taxes in this fiasco too. I think it would pay for itself in the lowered loss of property taxes. It's amazing the things that are casually neglected in this city and the city officials look up with a 'doe in the headlight' look when things don't work out right.

[Carey]

When you think of it, fire has played a huge role in reshaping Detroit's landscape. When fires start breaking out in your neighborhood, it's a sure sign something is wrong. Many people go their whole lives without seeing one real building fire. And while the fires themselves are a signal that a neighborhood is changing, the damaged homes left behind are a cancerous blight that spurs more change, all of it negative.

One example out of tens of thousands: There's two, three-story apartment buildings next to each other at Stair and Pitt in SW Detroit. Both are abandoned. They've had repeated fires; one, in fact, was the site of a mutliple-alarm fire last weekend. It's hard to imagine two greater cancers on a block.

[SWMAP]

"When fires start breaking out in your neighborhood, it's a sure sign something is wrong." Yes! SW Detroit is burning, burning. On eblock on Junction Ave between Howard Ave and Amherst- until recently a viable and important thoroughfare,- now has only one house standing. All else is a field. The house inhabited by a large group of young black men who appear to have nothing to do all day and evening but stand around outside [[how do they pay the rent?) and who adhere to the street maxim that the only clothes to wear outside are loose pants and a huge white tee-shirt [[the better to remain hard to identify to police, I guess).

I most rue tht the houses that are going down would be treasured in so many parts of the world. While small, they are sustainable, have all their parts, can be upgraded and are close to a wide variety of city amenities. Why aren't they more wanted?

[mam2009]

Watching it burn to the ground also ties up the fire crew for too long - other calls need to be answered, too.

Does it tie up a crew, keeping them from other fires? How often does a fire crew go directly from one fire run to another? How many fires does a crew fight per day? What's the average time a crew spends at a run?

[softailrider]

When you think of it, fire has played a huge role in reshaping Detroit's landscape. When fires start breaking out in your neighborhood, it's a sure sign something is wrong. Many people go their whole lives without seeing one real building fire. And while the fires themselves are a signal that a neighborhood is changing, the damaged homes left behind are a cancerous blight that spurs more change, all of it negative.

One example out of tens of thousands: There's two, three-story apartment buildings next to each other at Stair and Pitt in SW Detroit. Both are abandoned. They've had repeated fires; one, in fact, was the site of a mutliple-alarm fire last weekend. It's hard to imagine two greater cancers on a block.

I know exactly which two buildings your talking about, the last owner [[or contract purchaser) couldn't control those buildings. They went downhill fast.

[softailrider]

Insurance? In most cases these homes are UNINSURED! Ask the people who live there if they can get insurance. And if you can it's astronomical in price. No insurance company is going to write a policy on a derelict home. Retailers are having a hard time affording insurance in Detroit.

Of course, the abandoned dwellings are not insured. However, houses under going repair or re hab are considered occupied by most insurance companies and are definitely insurable.

Liberty Mutual, Farmers Insurance Group, Michigan Basic, and a host of other companies write Detroit properties.

If no company would write an insurance policy in the city, then no one would have been able to get a mortgage loan. Banks and mortgage companies demand that in order to protect their iinvestment.

[Zacha341]

Insurance payments like other payments go "unpaid"-chronically so with some homeowners RIGHT along with their mortgage [[where some have the two payments bundled as one) payment!!

You see the same thing in people driving about new cars without insurance [[as evidenced by the "crushed" up new cars they have to keep driving "un-repaired"). And some who own their home just don't get it.

Heck I've let my 'renters' insurance lapse recently and I am a responsible bill payer and rarely miss any insurance payments.... I best send in that payment asap. LOL!

Of course, the abandoned dwellings are not insured. However, houses under going repair or re hab are considered occupied by most insurance companies and are definitely insurable.

Liberty Mutual, Farmers Insurance Group, Michigan Basic, and a host of other companies write Detroit properties.

If no company would write an insurance policy in the city, then no one would have been able to get a mortgage loan. Banks and mortgage companies demand that in order to protect their iinvestment.

[Carey]

Mam: Fire officials have been quoted as saying there are an average of 35 fires a day in Detroit, including everything from small fires like trash or a car to burning homes and businesses. That would be an average of nearly 13,000 fires a year.

Going from fire to fire is rare, but it happens. Most of the time firefighters get a rest period of 20 to 40 minutes after a real fire. But when it's busy, the rest periods are suspended. That happened last September, obviously, when the 78 homes were destroyed on that hot, windy day, and it happened on Devil's/Angel's Night last October when things got busy after 10 p.m. Those are only two times I know about; there very well could be others in recent months.

The key thing to remember is the fire department has much more work today than it did when Detroit had 2 million people in the 1950s, but it has barely half of the manpower and rigs that it had in the earlier era.

[GUSHI]

Just do controlled fires on empty blocks, For training purposes, lol