Is "New 42 Street" and example for Detroit?

[jsmyers]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_42nd_Street

Until now, I wasn't aware that there was a organized effort to rehab the NYC theater district's theaters. My parents just took a trip to NYC and saw a show. Combined with the NY Times articles on the forum, I got thinking.

Is there potential for a similar initiative in Detroit? A collaboration of theater owners to increase the use of Detroit's many notable performance spaces. Maybe it could be called the "New Grand Circus."

Detroit has a number of beautifully restored or maintained theater spaces. I was going to remind everybody of the vast number of venues but I found this wikipedia article, so I'll just post a link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theatre_in_Detroit

There are also a number of smaller venues that this article misses.

I'm wondering if the competitors Nederlander and Olympia might be able to join forces to increase the size of the pie that they fight over. It seems to me that getting some of the many small theater companies in the city into larger venues with more exposure would increase interest in Detroit theater. Another potential idea is to bring shows from elsewhere in Michigan into Detroit for limited engagements.

Of course the restaurants probably stand to gain as much as anybody from busy theaters, but bars and hotels also benefit from these events. There are other players in the market as well, like the casinos, LiveNation, and the Kresge Foundation [[owns the Music Hall).

It might help to motive the reuse of the United Artists and National theaters. And possibly over the longer tern the reconstruction of something were the Adams once stood. The goal however, wouldn't be restored buildings, but a vibrant entertainment and performance arts market. It seems to me that this is one area where Detroit has exceptional "bones" [[potential) and this potential is very synergistic with other aspects of Detroit's rebirth.

[stasu1213]

New York's 42nd St is lined with theatres that produces foot traffic. Theatre goers can walk from one theatre to the next to the next. Detroit has the second largest theatre district but the theatres don't line Woodward to create such foot traffic as 42nd st does.It is true the there are pockets where theatres are close to each other such as the Gem, Music Hall, Detroit Opra, and 1515 Broadway. The other theatres will need a cab or car to get to such as Fisher, Masonic Temple, The Hillsbery, and way over on Woodrow Wilson, the Detroit Repitory. There is not a feeling from the locals and visitors that they are definitely in Detroit's Theatre District when goint through it

[corktownyuppie]

Man, it would be great if all those theaters were next to each other. I guess that's just a microcosm of the problems in Downtown Development. We have pockets of development but it's just going to take awhile before they're contiguous.

I'm proud of what's been accomplished so far, though. "Rightsizing" a city is an urban planning nightmare compared to just starting with a blank slate.

[Bham1982]

New 42 was an initiative a few decades ago to get legitimate theatre back on 42 [[most of the playhouses are on the side streets).

It isn't really applicable to Detroit in that it was an issue of live theatre vs. other uses. I don't think there's some overriding sentiment to convert the Fox, State, Music Hall, etc. etc. to Broadway or Off Broadway houses.

[Detroitnerd]

I think we should definitely have something to reinvigorate 42 Mile Road.

[corktownyuppie]

I think we should definitely have something to reinvigorate 42 Mile Road.

That's easy. Just tell all the northern Macomb residents that their taxes will go up and that they can buy twice as much land for their money. Don't worry about infrastructure. We'll sell 30-year bonds that won't mature until after you've packed and left for 62 mile rd.

[fryar]

It probably would be a good idea to try to set up something like that. Not all theatres would be in one contiguous district, but you might have some other way of promoting Detroit as a theater-going destination that "increases the size of the pie." For example, what about something like a Theatrical Tuesday's in the Park, where each summer week one show does a bit of lunch-hour show or "routine" of some kind in Campus Martius...or Saturday's on the Riverwalk...something along those lines?

I recall a thread a while back with ideas about a "City Pass" to promote the museums. This idea seems to me like it would be similar in nature.

I think we should definitely have something to reinvigorate 42 Mile Road.

Oh, I'm sure somebody's already on that.

[DetroitPlanner]

Detroit has good theatres already. The issue with NYC was that 42nd St was seddy as hell.

My first trip to NYC was in 1990. At that time I had heard about all of the issues of 42nd St. It was worse than what I had expected. The area was full of massage parlors, porn theatres, live sex shows, with shills out in front trying to entice you in. This area was beyond nasty. I was thinking it was going to be like Cass Coridor/Woodward but it was far more skanky not to mention more compact.

My next trip back was in 2000. I hardly recognized the place. The theatres were redone to be have names like Disney! ESPN and other chain restraunts had filled the area. It was a resounding success. Unfortunately there was little I could learn from this Detroit had nothing like it to turn from a pig's ear to a silk purse.

This area has a ton of streeet traffic. The Port Authority is nearby as is the subway. They took what had been the skankiest area in Manhatten and turned it into something to be proud of.

Detroit's theatres are spread too far apart for this to work. There was a start of this back when the GEM and a comedy club were across from the Fox and the State, but those were moved out for ballpark development. Unfortunately that meant parking!

42 Mile Road? The busiest street that far up is Van Dyke just N of Almont. Won't be any theatres here for a while I imagine. Especially now that the economy has caused the death of the sprawl monster.

[stasu1213]

I remember when Monroe street was one of the seediest downtown spot. The strip between Woodward and Randolph had burlesk and strip joints mingtled in with Father and Sons, Thom McCann, and Cancellations shoes. I use to catch the Gratiot bus right in front of the passport photos shop.

[Gistok]

A couple of points...

The NYC Broadway Theatre district is mainly playhouse theatres, which are mostly smaller in size, and opulently very tame in comparison to movie palaces. The largest of those is likely not more than 2,000 seats. The most palatial is the 1,590 seat Hollywood Theatre [[not sure if it's still called that). All of Broadway's greatest theatres [[movie palaces) were pounded to rubble in the 1960s..... the Roxy [[5,880 seats), the Capitol [[5,260 seats), the Broadway Paramount [[3,600 seats), and Loew's State [[3,500 seats) were the greatest of the great Broadway theatres. Sadly they are now all gone [[only the Times Square Paramount Building that once housed the theatre of that name is still standing... sans the theatre).

Detroit on the otherhand had more of its' large movie palaces surviving... although that Wiki article is very misleading.... the Detroit Theatre district only included the theatres from the GCP area upto the Fisher... a rather large area compared to other theatre districts. So some of those theatres mentioned don't even count as part of the theatre district [[Redford, Alger, Harpos, etc).

Other errors are the National Theatre... while extant... only has 800 seats, not 2,200 as mentioned. Most of the legitimate theatres [[non-movie palaces) were the Adams [[gone, but started as a legit theatre, turned to movies within a year of construction in 1917), the Wilson Theatre [[now Music Hall), Bonstelle and Hillberry. Also the Masonic was built for use by the Masons and later also became a performing arts center [[under the Nederlanders, but now no longer). Because it was built in a horseshoe shape [[unlike the fan shape of most movie palaces)... the Masonic has 600 unusable seats [[either poor sight lines or behind pillars)... so it really has a total of 5,000 seats, instead of 4,404.

Also the Detroit Opera House is not controlled by the Nederlanders... it's controlled and owned by Michigan Opera Theatre... it's just that some Nederlander shows come to the Detroit Opera House... which has the largest theatre stage in the midwest. This is an ironic reversal of the situation in the 1980s when MOT held performances at the then Nederlander controlled Masonic and Fisher... and it was the restrictions that the Nederlanders had on MOT that caused MOT to go out and [[thankfully) find their own venue... the DOH.

But anyway the NYC Broadway district has many more theatres whose total numbers exceed the 25,000 in Detroit's Theatre district. But NYC doesn't hold a candle to the beauty of the fewer [[but much larger and grander) former movie palaces that now are part of Detroit's Theatre District.

Note: the next largest theatre district is the Los Angeles downtown Broadway Theatre district... which has 12 theatres... none larger than 2,450 seats.

[lilpup]

Minor quibble - the movie palaces like the Paramount, Roxy, Capitol, State, generally aren't considered among "Broadway houses". Even the still existent Beacon isn't really considered "Broadway" because even though it's on Broadway it's farther up town, away from the theatre district.

The largest house considered a "Broadway house" is the Gershwin [[on W. 51st right around the corner from Broadway) at 2,200 seats.

The Hollywood Theatre was renamed the Mark Hellinger Theatre in the late 1940s. It's now a church [[Times Square Church) and is the most coveted among Broadwayphiles for a return to theatre status. The church has a long term lease but both the interior and exterior of the building are protected by New York City's landmark law and the church reportedly has done a nice job of maintaining it.

[Neilr]

The Hollywood Theatre was renamed the Mark Hellinger Theatre in the late 1940s. It's now a church [[Times Square Church) and is the most coveted among Broadwayphiles for a return to theatre status. The church has a long term lease but both the interior and exterior of the building are protected by New York City's landmark law and the church reportedly has done a nice job of maintaining it.

Exactly right, lilpup!!

If any reader has an interest in grand theatre design and preservation, you should see the Mark Hellinger on your next trip to NYC. Don't be put off by its nondescript exterior. As lilpup stated, it's now the Times Square Church, some type of Christian evangelical denomination, IIRC. Most of the time it's not open to the public. However visitors are welcome in the hour preceding their weekly evening service [[I don't recall which evening, I think Wednesday.)

The interior is wonderfully preserved [[except for the bathrooms which are well modernized). I am confident that you will be happy to have made the effort to see this amazingly well preserved theatre gem.

There are many images of the Mark Hellinger on Google Images. This link is just to one small set on Flicker. [[Note: these are not my photos.)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jgcompi...7600986481060/

[Bham1982]

But anyway the NYC Broadway district has many more theatres whose total numbers exceed the 25,000 in Detroit's Theatre district. But NYC doesn't hold a candle to the beauty of the fewer [[but much larger and grander) former movie palaces that now are part of Detroit's Theatre District.

I think this is really a highly debatable point. There are about 50 legitimate theatres in the traditional Broadway theater district, of which about 40 are Broadway houses. The remaining 10 are major off-Broadway houses. There are also a couple dozen smaller theatres in the neighborhood [[places like Dodger Studios and Theater Row on far West 42).

As to style, they run the gamut. There are 120-year-old-theatres, and one completed just a few months ago [[the newly reconstructed Cort, in the Bank of America HQ tower). There are modernist theatres, like the 80's-era Marquis, and opulent theaters, like the 20's-era Martin Beck.

In contrast, the only opulent major downtown Detroit theater is the Fox, though it's incredibly opulent. So you're comparing one theater to 50 theaters, and assuming that the Fox is more beautiful because it's more opulent.

Many prefer the understated elegance of, say, Detroit's Orchestra Hall to what many consider the rather garish Fox. I wouldn't necessarily say the Fox is more beautiful.

Also, in New York, the theater district is hardly the only place for theatre performance. There's Lincoln Center, the Carnegie Hall complex, the Public, City Center, Radio City, Beacon, Joyce, Hammerstein, Aaron Davis, Armory, etc., and this is only Manhattan. IMO, it's very hard to generalize re. style or relative beauty.

[stasu1213]

Detroit is begining to focus on it's smaller theatres such as The Boll Family Theatre, 1515 Broadway, The Bonstelle, and the other one where Second City once was. The aire other along Woodward that doesn't have any performances held in them. The Fine Arts[[probably closed), and the Majestic which is inside the Garden Bowl, I think the area should be made safe for theatre goiers and more restaurants, and cafes should be added.

[jsmyers]

Thanks for all of the facts and insights!

I should probably clarify a bit what I was thinking:

-I don't think that the purpose would be centered on buildings, but rather increasing the size of the market, which over the long term may create incentives to restore the National or the United Artists. But the real purpose is to bring more visitors and artists to the central city.

-While it is true that Detroit has venues all over the city, there is a compact district centered on Grand Circus Park that includes venues of a number of different sizes [[numbers mostly from the wiki article):

-Fox: ~5,000
-DOH - 2,700
-State - 2,200
-Music Hall - 1,700
-City -500
-Gem -450
-United Artists [[~2,000)

The furthest any of these are from another is about 1/3 mile. Going out a big further brings in a lot more including the casinos, the Masonic, the WSU spaces, the Majestic, and Orchestra Hall.

It seems to me that the most important and simple thing to do is to have a calendar to advertise what is going on, perhaps with a mechanism to get cheap last minute tickets when they are available. The closest thing that I can find is http://www.detroittheater.org/ and this appears to be operated by a company similar to livenation. That site includes a number of venues all over the state, and few of the smaller acting companies in the city. This sort of site helps answer the question: "what is there to do tonight?" And is especially useful for visitors, who might not makes plans in advance and have larger information barrier to overcome than the sort of people who frequent this forum.

[lilpup]

The real advantage of Broadway's theatre district is the small size of their houses. The area can host a multitude of shows and still have relatively good audience capacity. The trade off, however, is higher ticket prices. Premium seating for some Broadway shows is now running as much as $155 per ticket. Detroit could never support that. Plus the runs in Detroit would probably be shorter, making it harder to break even, even though a show's nut in Detroit should be quite a bit lower than on Broadway.

[1953]

Isn't 42 mile road beyond the border of Macomb County?

[jsmyers]

"show's nut"

??

I don't know what my folks paid to see the Adam's Family, but tickets to the Book of Mormon were either $800 a pair or something else completely out of their consideration.

[lilpup]

show's break even

[Carey]

Comparing Detroit and NYC is problematic in many ways. Even when "the Bronx was burning" in the 1970s, when New York experienced budget problems and vast urban decay, the city never lost its place as the nation's premiere center for media, art, fashion, theater, finance, restaurants...the list could go on. New York is the ultimate "world class city:" Every facet measures up in a positive way with the ingredients of other leading world cities such as Tokyo, Paris and London.

[jsmyers]

While there have been a lot of NY/Detroit comparisons in this thread [[and others) I don't think many of them are claiming that Detroit is very much like NY, or that what works for New York will work in the D.

New York may be a "world class" city, which to me means that it is one of the best in the world. But I think the things that you mention are true because NYC is a global city. It is a global city mostly because of its size, longevity, ports, and financial institutions. This is a different thing from being good. I would say that Ann Arbor is a great [[one of the best in the US, maybe not the world) city compared to others its size. But even compared to Detroit it doesn't have the global impact because it is lower down the hierarchy of global cities. Similarly, you are right that NY is a step or two above Detroit on that same heirarchy, and it will remain so for our lifetimes, if not longer.

Getting back to my original question, isn't there a potential to put more shows in theaters and more butts in seats if the many venue owners, promoters, and performing artists worked together a bit? It seems like a natural initiative for the DMCVB to be a part of, as well as the Downtown Detroit Partnership

In some ways, it looks like the DDP is doing something similar with:

http://www.digdowntown.com/events

But this is a bit broader than performing arts.

[Gistok]

I think this is really a highly debatable point. There are about 50 legitimate theatres in the traditional Broadway theater district, of which about 40 are Broadway houses. The remaining 10 are major off-Broadway houses. There are also a couple dozen smaller theatres in the neighborhood [[places like Dodger Studios and Theater Row on far West 42).

As to style, they run the gamut. There are 120-year-old-theatres, and one completed just a few months ago [[the newly reconstructed Cort, in the Bank of America HQ tower). There are modernist theatres, like the 80's-era Marquis, and opulent theaters, like the 20's-era Martin Beck.

In contrast, the only opulent major downtown Detroit theater is the Fox, though it's incredibly opulent. So you're comparing one theater to 50 theaters, and assuming that the Fox is more beautiful because it's more opulent.

Many prefer the understated elegance of, say, Detroit's Orchestra Hall to what many consider the rather garish Fox. I wouldn't necessarily say the Fox is more beautiful.

Also, in New York, the theater district is hardly the only place for theatre performance. There's Lincoln Center, the Carnegie Hall complex, the Public, City Center, Radio City, Beacon, Joyce, Hammerstein, Aaron Davis, Armory, etc., and this is only Manhattan. IMO, it's very hard to generalize re. style or relative beauty.

The movie palace debate happened 80 years ago... many architects hated them [[some still do), while the majority of patrons loved them... they were after all "the architecture of fantasy". Legitimate playhouses had no such pretentions.

Movie palaces were almost always larger and fancier than legitimate theatres. Beyond 75-100 ft. the intimacy between audience and entertainer is lost in a Playhouse.

The Detroit Fox is not the only opulent theatre in Detroit. Theatre Historical Society of Elmhurst Illinois [[been around for 40 years)... says that of the 3 major movie theatre styles [[Temple, Palace, Atmospheric)... that Detroit has one of the masterpieces of opulence in the Temple style in the Detroit Fox... other great theatres in that style are the Detroit United Artists Theatre [[needing restoration), which was called the "The Jewel Box" due to its' intimate opulence, and the former [[pre-1960) Fisher Theatre, which was labeled "an impossibly wonderful Mayanesque Theatre".

In the Atmospheric Style the great Oriental Theatre [[just west of Park Ave. was pounded to rubble in the 1950s, and it was the most opulent theatre of that style in Detroit... now we only have the Redford Theatre [[in a tame Japanese atmospheric style).

In the Palace Style, we have the opulent 1922 Capitol [[now Detroit Opera House), with its golden Corinthian columns, its' magnificent lobby stained glass ceiling, its' 3 story grand foyer with huge ornate chandeliers, gold, blue and green stenciling large mirrors and a grand mezzanine bridge, as well as gilded procenium, blue and gold ceiling dome, and a coffered gilded blue sounding board.

Also in the Palace Style we have the Fillmore/State, built in 1925 with a magnificent rotunda lobby with chandeliers, mirrors/draperies and large sweeping marble grand stairs, a 3 story grand foyer with gold and marbled Corinthian columns with a coffered ceiling, and an auditorium with a golden procenium arch, black marbled side columns and a great coffered ceiling dome 8 stories up.

The former Michigan Theatre was considered the finest of Detroit's Palace Style theatres, but was sadly disemboweled in 1977.

Also according to the Theatre Historical Society most people prefer an opulent movie palace style theatre hands down. It provides for a place of escape... a reason to dress up... and a place to impress a date.

Ironically New Yorks greatest theatres are far away from Broadway. With the demise of the Broadway movie palaces... the Loew's 5 "Wonder Theatres" all still survive, and are considered the finest in the New York area. They range from the Spanish atmospheric Loew's Valencia in Queens, the French Baroque palace style Loew's Kings in Brooklyn, the Oriental atmospheric Loew's 175th St. in Manhattan, the French Rococco palace Loew's Jersey in Jersey City, and the Italian Renaissance atmospheric Loew's Paradise in the Bronx.

The going joke at the Bronx's Loew's Paradise [[originally it was going to be called the Venetian)... is with all of the statuary and architecture to look at, it's a wonder anyone had time to watch the movie?

[jsmyers]

Thank you as always Gistok for enriching our discussion with your thorough knowledge of theater history and architecture.

I would like to hear your thoughts on how more shows might be brought into these spaces with more people watching them. I'd be surprised if it is something you don't have an opinion about or haven't thought about before.

[Gistok]

Thanks jsmyers... I'll discuss some of your other issues later....

But first I'll go off on a tangent about Detroit's greatest theatre restoration project [[cost wise)... the $42 million restoration of the Detroit Opera House... formerly called the Capitol [[1922-29), Paramount [[1929-33), Broadway Capitol [[1934-60) and Grand Circus Theatres [[1960-89). Note: a large chunk of the $42 million was spent to tear down 2 nearby buildings, and build a huge new opera stage house with the now largest theatre stage in the midwest [[nearly 8,000 sq, ft.).

Most of the folks on the forum are familiar with the opulent over-the-top Detroit Fox interior, the masterpiece of C. Howard Crane.

Detroit architect Crane [[known as one of the "Big 4" movie palace architects of the 1920s) designed many of the downtown [[and outlying tamer) Detroit theatres. As Theatre Historical Society mentions in their discussion about downtown Detroit theatres...

"With with so many of the downtown theatres designed by Crane... one would think it would be a rather monotonous collection of similar theatres... however that is not the case. There is no such thing as "the Crane style", as there would be for other major movie palace architects. In fact similar Crane theatres are rather rare [[with the major exception being the Detrot & St. Louis Fox). Crane's vast output usually created unique theatres, although some did have some similarities [[such as Orchestra Hall and the former Madison Theatre)."

Detroit's finest surviving theatre in the "Palace" style is Crane's Detroit Opera House [[formerly the 3,384 seat Capitol Theatre of 1922).

Here are 3 views [[images owned by Michigan Opera Theatre) of the DOH:

The 2 story Corinthian columned Ford Lobby at the Broadway St. [[former streetcar) entrance to the Detroit Opera House. This was considered the fancier main entrance, although DOH also had a much tamer 1 story "carriage entrance" on Madison Ave. [[Note: due to an irregular fan shaped site, this is the only major Detroit theatre with more than 1 main entrance.)

The 3 story Grand Foyer wraps around the back [[and also underneath) the auditorium. What is seen in this image is only 1/2 of the Grand Foyer [[facing the 1 story Madison Lobby entrance). The Grand Foyer is cut in half by the mezzanine bridge which has 2 sets of stairs that come together from opposite sides and then bridge over the foyer space.

The 6 story DOH auditorium. The secret to the magnificent acoustics of the DOH is the sounding board above the stage and procenium arch. This irregular surfaced opulent space in rich gold and blue tones [[with lots of nooks and crannies) throws the sound out into the auditorium and is why no amplification is ever required by Opera singers on stage. The "5 suns" octagon openings in the sounding board are a motive that is repeated in many areas of the auditorium, especially in the mezzanine ceiling under the balcony overhang.

As the savior of the old ruinous theatre MOT General Director Dr. David DiChiera has stated "this theatre was born to be an opera house".... i.e. architect Crane used many of the features of Italian Renaissance opera houses of Italy in designing this opulent space. Crane's philosophy about good acoustics was "if the theatre space was pleasing to the eye, it would be pleasing to the ear as well."

One feature that the DOH has that is lacking in many European opera houses is that it has good sight lines throughout. Many European opera houses have a horseshoe shaped configuration of opera boxes stacked on top of each other at the rear and sides of the auditorium, while the DOH has a large single span balcony overhang that provides the best viewing [[as well as the closer main floor seating).

[lilpup]

[[yeah, but the sound in the loge still pretty much sucks)


I'd totally be up for a multitude of nice, smaller venues where a sparse crowd doesn't make it feel like you're sitting in the middle of the Grand Canyon. We'd probably get more Broadway/cabaret/big name high ticket but smaller drawing acts into town, too.