Why Dan Gilbert is wrong about Curbside Rail

[j to the jeremy]

http://www.transportmichigan.org/201...bert.html#more

"In all those cities, light rail trains do indeed run next to the curb at intervals where they pass through downtown areas. What Gilbert misses is the context. All these trains mostly run on one-way downtown streets that are far smaller than Woodward. There, curbside tracks are a means to two major ends: providing trains with their own right-of-way, and narrowing the river of car traffic that pedestrians need to cross. The M1 design for Woodward does neither. Let's consider each case"

[Detroitnerd]

God, I'm so sick of these money people PLAYING at being urban planners. We want a city, not an amusement park!

[Vox]

God, I'm so sick of these money people PLAYING at being urban planners. We want a city, not an amusement park!

Yes, versus forum participants playing at being urban planners.

[j to the jeremy]

Hey, some of us are at least taking classes...

[Detroitnerd]

Many of the people on this board are or are studying at being urban planners. Which is better than Dan Gilbert and Ilitch. They want the public to fund a system that is slow and takes people to some doors and not to others. If you feel it's fine to just rubber-stamp what they want and leave the public on the hook for another People-Mover-style system, then by all means do your best to frustrate actual debate. Oh, yeah, I forgot: That's all you do here anyway, Vox.

[Gistok]

Perhaps all Vox needs is to be shown the comparisons between the 2 systems in a way that anyone can understand....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egc_M...layer_embedded

[Tig3rzhark]

The guy is looking for excuses to give when the project is stalled into failure. The only way curbside rail would work on Woodward, is if that there was no bicycling, or curbside parking allowed on Woodward at all.

The result you would get are 1 lane of bus traffic with light rail running alongside traffic combined with regular traffic.

The rest of the streets would be full of regular traffic.

Offering the potential for the city or private companies to take empty lots and make more parking lots.

Yeah. Gilbert either has no idea on what really would work for that street, or really doesn't care.

[mrpatlast]

I have to agree with Detroitnerd here. I have obtained a Masters of Urban Planning from WSU and while it does not make me the end-all be-all of planning, it does enable me to think analytically in terms of realistic end results for projects of such magnitude. I am happy that Detroit has entrepreneurs such as Illitch and Gilbert advocating for the city buy at the end of the day, they are millionaires, not planners. They should know that none of us could do their job and that they can't do ours [[planners). Hopefully the mayors office is smart enough to realize that if we fail at transit this time, it will be 20-30 years before the feds are willing to throw money at our region again. Down the center or not at all is my preference.

[Vox]

Actually I would have preferred the return route [[either way) up another street. Like Cass.

[j to the jeremy]

Actually I would have preferred the return route [[either way) up another street. Like Cass.

So just like a people mover?

[Detroitnerd]

I wouldn't reject a snaking system out of hand. In the past, for instance, I think the streetcars would sometimes run one-way and meet up elsewhere. I guess it's a question of convenience and sense. If we are to have people use a system, it helps to have it run on one street. Want to take the light rail? It's on Woodward. It goes uptown and downtown. Where do you catch it going uptown? On Woodard. Where do you catch it going downtown? On Woodward. Any other arrangement that complicates this is confusing and unnecessary. Elegance in design should be a top priority.

[Vox]

I wouldn't reject a snaking system out of hand. In the past, for instance, I think the streetcars would sometimes run one-way and meet up elsewhere. I guess it's a question of convenience and sense. If we are to have people use a system, it helps to have it run on one street. Want to take the light rail? It's on Woodward. It goes uptown and downtown. Where do you catch it going uptown? On Woodard. Where do you catch it going downtown? On Woodward. Any other arrangement that complicates this is confusing and unnecessary. Elegance in design should be a top priority.

Yeah, I suppose that people are too stupid to figure out how to walk a block to get to a uptown streetcar. My bad.

Not only would you have development on Woodward, but it would improve the length of Cass as well, given the constant drumbeat of the "development by rail" crowd.

[j to the jeremy]

Fun fact, you can still see the old streetcar tracks on Cass at MLK.

[Gistok]

[QUOTE=Vox;254288]Yeah, I suppose that people are too stupid to figure out how to walk a block to get to a uptown streetcar. My bad.

Ummm once you get to the Fisher Fwy.... Cass and Woodward are about 4 blocks away from each other... Detroit's street grid is not a perfect grid...

[Detroitnerd]

Yeah, I suppose that people are too stupid to figure out how to walk a block to get to a uptown streetcar. My bad.

Not only would you have development on Woodward, but it would improve the length of Cass as well, given the constant drumbeat of the "development by rail" crowd.

Urban planners note that people are willing to walk a block or so from a rail stop, so there's no reason why Cass and John R shouldn't see an uptick in development. And elegance in design doesn't assume stupidity on the part of the public. It mitigates confusion by ... avoiding it in the first place.

[Hypestyles]

...so, who gets the "final" decision on middle-of-road vs. curbside-running.. how many stakeholders make decisions here? if middle-of-road all the way down is chosen, can the the current private-money investors renege on their pledges? how much would that derail [[pun intended) the project?

[Vox]

Urban planners note that people are willing to walk a block or so from a rail stop, so there's no reason why Cass and John R shouldn't see an uptick in development. And elegance in design doesn't assume stupidity on the part of the public. It mitigates confusion by ... avoiding it in the first place.

Well Gistok is right, it can't be done.
So, I suppose that there's nothing to do other than punt. Gilbert knows best, I suppose.

[Detroitnerd]

...so, who gets the "final" decision on middle-of-road vs. curbside-running.. how many stakeholders make decisions here? if middle-of-road all the way down is chosen, can the the current private-money investors renege on their pledges? how much would that derail [[pun intended) the project?

I get the sense that the public comment was favorable to center-running. The feds are likely favorable to center-running. DDOT seemed favorable to center-running. Most of the posters here seem to favor center-running. But if Ilitch and Gilbert want it curbside, with stops at their venues ... well ...

"Forget it. It's Chinatown, Jake."

[Tig3rzhark]

I get the sense that the public comment was favorable to center-running. The feds are likely favorable to center-running. DDOT seemed favorable to center-running. Most of the posters here seem to favor center-running. But if Ilitch and Gilbert want it curbside, with stops at their venues ... well ...

"Forget it. It's Chinatown, Jake."

I can see it months from now. "Private Backers renege on M1 Project" on the News and Freep.

[j to the jeremy]

I can see it months from now. "Private Backers renege on M1 Project" on the News and Freep.

If they do, they will surely be reviled among many circles, including some in Washington.

[professorscott]

...so, who gets the "final" decision on middle-of-road vs. curbside-running.. how many stakeholders make decisions here? if middle-of-road all the way down is chosen, can the the current private-money investors renege on their pledges? how much would that derail [[pun intended) the project?

1. The final recommendation will be made by the project engineers, and DDOT is the implementing agency so to some extent DDOT gets to make the final decision. Because of the importance of the project, I suspect DDOT is going to decide whatever Mayor Bing tells it to decide, so realistically this is the Mayor's call. If the City attempts to go around the engineering recommendation, whatever that is, it will be less likely to get the project funded.

2. The private-money investors have not made an open-ended pledge that they would support whatever the City decides to build. It will be interesting to see what happens if the final recommendation is for a center-running system.

3. Without the private investor money I can't imagine how the project could be built. Anyone else have any ideas?

That's been the sticking point for a long time now: Gilbert, Ilitch, Penske et al. are interested in the curbside system, and the City isn't. So we'll see what we get out of project engineering and let the feathers fly!

[Det_ard]

3. Without the private investor money I can't imagine how the project could be built. Anyone else have any ideas?

A special TIF on urban planners? We seem to have a few bazillion of them around here and they love transit so much they won't mind the tax.

[bailey]

If they do, they will surely be reviled among many circles, including some in Washington.

They have already said as much and that was 3 weeks ago [[cross post to "it WAS nice to dream for a second" thread).... and no one is saying boo about it.

Private money on the line: Woodward rail donors wait for layout they like

By Bill Shea

Until an accord is reached on critical aspects of the Woodward light-rail line, a consortium of private-sector donors who have pledged $100 million toward the project's $528 million capital costs won't commit any money.

"We'll wait to see if there's a project that makes sense and is viable. Then we'll be prepared to invest," said Matt Cullen, CEO of M1 Rail, the coalition of project financial backers who mainly favor a curbside alignment for the line rather than the median-running layout apparently preferred by the city.

And until the debate is resolved, the $100 million exists largely as just a series of informal "soft" commitments from donors, some of which have lapsed because the 9.3-mile, streetcar-style line between Hart Plaza and Eight Mile Road still remains in the planning stages.

"It isn't like this money was in a box," Cullen said.

The M1 money accounts for 47 percent of the project's $210 million required local match needed to leverage $318 million in federal funding to build the line.

The impasse over the line's alignment -- M1 Rail prefers slower curbside service that delivers people to the sidewalk, while the Detroit Department of Transportation is pushing for a purely center-of-street line that travels at higher speeds -- continues behind the scenes, sources familiar with the situation told Crain's.

Until those details are resolved, M1 Rail isn't going to firm up its financing commitment, Cullen said, nor will the group commit money to a project that it doesn't philosophically agree with.

Cullen is quick to add that he expects the city and M1, along with the Federal Transit Administration staffers advising DDOT on the project, to come to an accord.

"Everybody on our side of the project wants it to happen and will be reasonably flexible about it," he said, adding that preliminary plans for a mostly median-running line have begun to circulate in recent weeks, and project engineering is only about 10 percent complete.

"All the funders, including the city, M1 and FTA, have to have a project they're all comfortable with," he said, noting that the line will be a hybrid curbside-median layout that will likely loop west to include the Rosa Parks Transit Center at Cass and Michigan avenues.

Continued at: http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...yout-they-like [[Google the headline and click on the first link for the full article.)

[j to the jeremy]

I have been told by a good source that that article was out of date when it was published. There will probably be some compromise reached. Cullen is a Gilbert guy so he's keeping the party line.

I wonder how much the M1 people understand the principles at work, and how many M1 folks are really just there to sabotage the whole project for GM and Ford?

[Detroitnerd]

I wonder how much the M1 people understand the principles at work, and how many M1 folks are really just there to sabotage the whole project for GM and Ford?

I don't know that this would be out-and-out sabotage. I think it has more to do with a total lack of understanding of cities on the part of the die-hard money-men. They want it to be an amusement park ride to lure people to their destinations, at the expense of speed, transit-oriented development and common sense. And I believe "coming to an accord" means accepting their idiotic design in some way.