[African-American Churches] Detroit's Greatest Untapped Revitalization Opportunity?

[southsider]

We're all well aware of Detroit's peak during the industrial age. The city, state and region capitalized on a single engine industry with little to no competition and overwhelming demand. Not only are those days long gone, but creating an industry with that level of demand coupled with no competition is nearly impossible to recreate. However, there is one industry, and one industry alone that still thrives in Detroit with no sign of erosion. It exceeds expectations in revenue, development and customer loyalty.

That industry: the black church. I'm not going to spend thread real estate discussing the moral or spiritual implications of the idea. What I would like forumers to consider are the models that's been established. Anyone who has visited the international cities of the Vatican, Jerusalem or Cairo will tell you the sustainability and wealth associated with ORGANIZED faith based economies.

Nationally, I would like for Detroiters to look at Salt Lake City, Ut as the model. This [[in large part) faith based city has created sustainability impervious to national economic whims because of the cultural dependence on the church. And because of the faith standards, most of the intellectual property developed in the post secondary, secondary, grad and professional schools [[even those who will go on to Ivy League colleges) come back home to reinvest that intellectual property in Salt Lake City, Ut. They, through their recruitment efforts, reach internationally on missions to save souls. What they in turn get is an opportunity to absorb more culture, language and intellectual property to bring back to Salt Lake City to develop sustain their economic engine. There are more bilingual residents in Salt Lake City per capita than any other city in the country.

Now lets take Detroit. Nearly/Over 3000 churches. Revenues of untold amounts. Devout followers [[for generations). Why not organize those churches into a similar model of the LDS church and develop the type of sustainable financial engine that makes other faith based cities impervious to economic demands?

[Gistok]

Ummmm.... I don't know what to say.... except you basing your comments on a "tithing" based system... don't see anything that generates any income... such as jobs or commerce.... yes people go to Rome, Jerusalem, Salt Lake City and [[in the case of the Church of Christ Scientists) Boston... as pilgrims of faith and spend their pilgrim dollars.

I somehow doubt that you're going to get all the storefront churches and megachurches [[with their pastors living comfortably in McMansions in the burbs)... to merge in any sort of meaningful entity... Protestantism split from Catholicism, and has been splintering ever since.... I doubt that this trend will reverse itself anytime soon.

Also... how many here get annoyed with some Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses come a knocking at your door...

We need jobs and commerce... not another mother church and its' administrative HQ...

However... I've been to Boston's Back Bay area, and was very impressed with their little Vatican known as the Mother Church of Christ Scientist... that complex includes a 40 story administration tower and lots of beautiful landscaping...

But to become a religious center there needs to be some sort of reason.... Santiago de Compastella in northwestern Spain became a religious center when the remains of "St. James" suddenly were "discovered" [[rolling eyes) there in the 9th century AD, and it became a pilgramage site to this day. I don't think there's anyone to dig up for veneration in Detroit... except maybe Rosa Parks... and she's more social than religious.

I know I'm comming off as rather snarky sounding... but I just don't see faith as an economic tool, unless we have a few young shepherdesses seeing a few visions of the Virgin Mary....

[Gannon]

Southsider,

Have you ever heard of 'attempting to herd cats'?!

MOST of these folks who start storefront churches do so to avoid the accountability and bureaucracy of organized religion. Many of them are refugees of mainline religion. Some of them do it to live tax-free. A few are pure charlatans.


That said, since the Spirit of Detroit IS the Spirit of God...according to the scripture behind the famous statue...you might be onto something. Why's it got to be racist, though?! From careful observation, I've noticed that God isn't discriminating...and we've done a bang-up job of ending the original geographical and continental segregation of the races!


Look out for the ACLU to sue to get that scripture verse finally taken down, then. Seriously.


Cheers,
John

[southsider]

I somehow doubt that you're going to get all the storefront churches and megachurches [[with their pastors living comfortably in McMansions in the burbs)... to merge in any sort of meaningful entity... Protestantism split from Catholicism, and has been splintering ever since.... I doubt that this trend will reverse itself anytime soon.

I don't disagree w/you Gistok, Detroit is best known for its dysfunction, criminal activity and division. What I'm trying to suggest is that international economic engines based on faith based cultures are successful. Detroit has the nucleus of what a faith based economy. The LDS church in an of itself is a splinter group. Its all about having the where-with-all to execute.

That's what Detroit lacks.

[southsider]

Southsider,

Have you ever heard of 'attempting to herd cats'?!

MOST of these folks who start storefront churches do so to avoid the accountability and bureaucracy of organized religion. Many of them are refugees of mainline religion. Some of them do it to live tax-free. A few are pure charlatans.


That said, since the Spirit of Detroit IS the Spirit of God...according to the scripture behind the famous statue...you might be onto something. Why's it got to be racist, though?! From careful observation, I've noticed that God isn't discriminating...and we've done a bang-up job of ending the original geographical and continental segregation of the races!


Look out for the ACLU to sue to get that scripture verse finally taken down, then. Seriously.


Cheers,
John

Many would put the founding fathers of the LDS church in this same group. Nonetheless, regardless of where you stand on the issue the church has thrived economically in spite of naysayers and developed a solid community in a state.

[Gannon]

I don't know where I lost ya...but I mentioned no groups. I went from many, to most, to some, to a FEW. Subsets of the whole, at the least. I never called everyone a charlatan, although they MIGHT all deserve it. I was trying to give the benefit of the doubt.


The money-changers and poor remain with us as well. In addition to them, I wonder if Jesus ever imagined that the very hypocrisy he railed against at the head of Judaism of the time would root itself in an instutution formed around HIM?! LOL!

Just because something remains...it gives credibility? I'd wager that a MAJORITY of these non- and multi-denominational churches...storefront or greater...would say that the oldest operating organized business in the world, the Catholic Church of Rome, has no validity at all. OF course, they have to belittle the 'competition' in their sales pitches. LOL!


Hell, prostitution is an even OLDER economic engine, with perhaps even a deeper and more coherent market...since it preys on our basic blatant reproductive drive instead of the more ethereal spiritual yearning. Let's do both! We can put them in public opposition with each other, so folks don't know they are actually playing for the same purpose!

Geez, then there are the drug sellers...and gambling institutions. We should just make it the City of the Seven Deadly Sins...trump the shit out of Las Vegas' marketing campaign. Things happen in Detroit that will make you want to STAY!


Cheers,
John

[DetroitPlanner]

I would tend to agree with Gannon, the LDS is organized around a central purpose much like the Vatican is to Rome. What we have is fragmented.

That is not to say that work has not progressed due to churches. However many have different agendas and it takes quite a bit of coordination to keep everyone in the boat rowing in the same direction. It does happen though, look at religious based groups like MOSES or Focus Hope as examples.

[southsider]

I often refer to one of Adam Carolla's discussions of San Diego. To paraphrase his thoughts, "The only thing that makes San Diego different than Tijuana are the people. The people of San Diego make that community what it is and Tijuana the same." What Detroit is filled with is the lack of leadership and population that makes it one of prosperity.

Even suggestions of improvement are met with "this is why it won't work". Skeptics and ner-du-wells.

[English]

I would tend to agree with Gannon, the LDS is organized around a central purpose much like the Vatican is to Rome. What we have is fragmented.

That is not to say that work has not progressed due to churches. However many have different agendas and it takes quite a bit of coordination to keep everyone in the boat rowing in the same direction. It does happen though, look at religious based groups like MOSES or Focus Hope as examples.

Agree. It all depends upon whether the religious leader is altruistic or in it for self.

[Detroitnerd]

I do not see religion as a driving force for economic development in the city. Frankly, I'm not sure I'd want it to be.

[canuck]

I often refer to one of Adam Carolla's discussions of San Diego. To paraphrase his thoughts, "The only thing that makes San Diego different than Tijuana are the people. The people of San Diego make that community what it is and Tijuana the same." What Detroit is filled with is the lack of leadership and population that makes it one of prosperity.

Even suggestions of improvement are met with "this is why it won't work". Skeptics and ner-du-wells.

I spent some time in San Ysidro in 1990, the suburb of San Diego bordering Tijuana. The people in San Ysidro were mexican americans, living in monster homes with flashy cars and big pick-ups. There wasnt much to differentiate them form their cousins across the border except the wage differences. Everybody knows you could be working as hard in Mexico in construction or in a maquiladora situation and make a small fraction of an american or canadian worker. Mexico has a long way to go before people benefit from better conditions because there never was enough of a will to spread the wealth around and elevate the country out of poverty and ignorance.

[Gistok]

Now there is one spot that could [[and does draw pilgrims)... but not in any great quantity. That would be to the St. Bonaventure Monastery [[better known as the Capucin Kitchen).

Since the veneration of Fr. Solanus Casey back in the 1990s, $20 million has been spent to expand and beautify the complex. It is quite impressive... and for those who have never visited it is worthy of a pilgrimage, whether you're a believer or not. The soaring architecture, and sculpture cloister, and monastery church alone are worth a trip. [[$20 million bought a lot of beautiful architecture.)

However, Fr. Casey's progress to beatification has been slow... even though there are more cases of supposed miracles than there have been for Pope John Paul II.

If Fr. Casey ever reached sainthood, as America's first native born male saint... then the pilgrims would likely flock to Detroit in droves.... [[mostly the sick and infirmed).

[mallory]

Great thought but will never happen. If I hear the phrase "we all need to come together" one more time, I'm gonna puke. Sure, the city does need to come together to save it, but "don't look at me to make the first step." Sadly, things have been like that for years.

[Lowell]

I agree with the sentiments above that the churches are too autonomonous and splintered to have united action. They are almost diametrically opposite of the LDS in that aspect as they are in economic prosperity.

However they are arguably the strongest social underpinning for depressed areas of our city. I can't imagine the chaos that would exist if they were not present. As a totality, they probably do more for the City of Detroit and its impoverished citizens than any other institution.

[southsider]

I agree with the sentiments above that the churches are too autonomonous and splintered to have united action. They are almost diametrically opposite of the LDS in that aspect as they are in economic prosperity.

However they are arguably the strongest social underpinning for depressed areas of our city. I can't imagine the chaos that would exist if they were not present. As a totality, they probably do more for the City of Detroit and its impoverished citizens than any other institution.

Not only is the LDS church one of the strongest institutions socially underpinning the depressed in Detroit; their outreach is worldwide [[thus the volume of bilingual citizens in SLC).

Further, I'm not suggesting that faith based economies and organization of the black church would be an easy thing for Detroit to tackle. It would not. Nothing is easily accomplished in an area so war torn by flight, dysfunction, corruption and hubris.

What I am suggesting is the practice is a vehicle that already exists, prospers and shows no sign of slowing down in the metro area. If there is an opportunity to revitalize the region we are sitting on it. Listen, no one or any corporation wants to move to Detroit. Hell, you can't even get suburbanites to visit the city. Its a much steeper, riskier climb to try to create the unthinkable. Why not use the resources that already flourish?!

[bartock]

Not only is the LDS church one of the strongest institutions socially underpinning the depressed in Detroit; their outreach is worldwide [[thus the volume of bilingual citizens in SLC).

Further, I'm not suggesting that faith based economies and organization of the black church would be an easy thing for Detroit to tackle. It would not. Nothing is easily accomplished in an area so war torn by flight, dysfunction, corruption and hubris.

What I am suggesting is the practice is a vehicle that already exists, prospers and shows no sign of slowing down in the metro area. If there is an opportunity to revitalize the region we are sitting on it. Listen, no one or any corporation wants to move to Detroit. Hell, you can't even get suburbanites to visit the city. Its a much steeper, riskier climb to try to create the unthinkable. Why not use the resources that already flourish?!

I pretty much disagree with every word of this, but first thing is that I'm fairly certain the Mormons are not the strongest social underpinning for depressed areas of Detroit. The statement you were referring to was [[paraphrasing) that the churches in Detroit, though totally different than the LDS, are arguably the strongest social underpiining.

[rb336]

Every so often I hear or read about a pastor of one of the mega-churches complaining about the check-cashing/cash advance industry ripping off their members. What I would like to know is why they don't pool their collective assets and start doing the same thing without the huge fees?

[ragnarok1981]

Churches in Detroit are one of the biggest detriments to the city being revitalized, and they will never help make the city better. There are already far too many churches in the city and we could do without at least half of them and still have more than enough left over for everyone in the city several times over. The leaders of these churches are running one of the biggest con games ever and the victims of this con are too naive and or stupid to see it for what it really is. If you looked up the leaders of the major churches in the city and where they lived I think you would be amazed to see how well they live. For example look at "Bishop" Wayne T Jackson. He runs the great faith ministries here in Detroit and in Atlanta. I would imagine that a great number of his flock live in low income areas while he lives out in W. Bloomfield. But he also had his church buy the Arch Diocese residence in Palmer woods for him and his family. This home is the largest in Detroit but the city gets no tax revenue from it because it is now owned by a church so it is tax exempt. The real kicker here is that he does not even live in the home, I hear his mother in law might live there, but for the most part they use it for sunday brunch and to entertain out of town guests. This con-artist should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law for ripping off all these poor people who are stupidly handing over their hard earned money to him so he can live in the lap of luxury while they live in the decaying ruins of a once great city. As a Palmer Woods resident myself I find this guy even more offensive because of his complete lack of morals and how he interacts with the rest of the neighborhood. We have a concert series and a home tour each year, but when asked if they would host a concert in their massive home, or be on the home tour they asked for something like 2000 just to have the right to use their home. They are not the only church leaders with a home in Palmer Woods or one of the other nicer neighborhoods in Detroit either. There are plenty of other church leaders living in mansions and that just amazes me that their followers let them do it. If you believe that Jesus Christ existed then you would believe that he taught to give to the poor and to share your wealth with the needy. But it seems that a large number of Black and many non black mega church leaders are taking that teaching and reversing it by taking from the poor, the needy, the down trodden, and enriching themselves. At least the Catholic church only has the very top leaders living in luxury but the majority of its priests live like their church members. As you can see I clearly have a major bias when it comes to all this because I find most organized religion to be superstitious nonsense from days gone by, but I still feel that if people are going to worship then they deserve better than what they are getting.
The city of Detroit could probably solve its debt issues if it took a look at the churchs around the city and all the property they own and told them that they can have tax exempt status for a church but not the extra property.
Finally there is also a practice here in Detroit and I am sure it is common in other urban cities where the political parties are basically subjected to a shakedown by the church leaders. It is well known that if you want to win an election in Detroit you have to give a certain amount of money to these churchs to "help get out the vote". In otherwords it means you have to bribe the preacher to get him to support you and have him get his flock to support you. Ending this practice would go a long way to stopping the corruption in Detroit because as we all saw in the Kwame scandal, all the major church leaders here falling all over themselves to support him and say how it is such an injustice, eventhough he had committed adultery, theft, and who knows how many other sins. Why are they all so willing to forgive him and praise him? The money.

[Hypestyles]

collectively, churches here exist in most respects for self-perpetuation.. preservation of social status quo.. many may operate food programs and the like.. but many congregants operates on the premise that their pastor must be given a certain opulence in lifestyle because of their position.. alternately, to keep pace with whites who go by the same practices.. a certain 'rigid separateness' between minister & members is maintained oftentimes in black church culture and often doesn't exist in certain mainline protestant white church groupings.. the custom of adults referring to the pastor/bishop exclusively as "pastor/bishop" instead of their real name, even in private and/or informal gatherings is one example..

[southsider]

Churches in Detroit are one of the biggest detriments to the city being revitalized, and they will never help make the city better. There are already far too many churches in the city and we could do without at least half of them and still have more than enough left over for everyone in the city several times over. The leaders of these churches are running one of the biggest con games ever and the victims of this con are too naive and or stupid to see it for what it really is. If you looked up the leaders of the major churches in the city and where they lived I think you would be amazed to see how well they live. For example look at "Bishop" Wayne T Jackson. He runs the great faith ministries here in Detroit and in Atlanta. I would imagine that a great number of his flock live in low income areas while he lives out in W. Bloomfield. But he also had his church buy the Arch Diocese residence in Palmer woods for him and his family. This home is the largest in Detroit but the city gets no tax revenue from it because it is now owned by a church so it is tax exempt. The real kicker here is that he does not even live in the home, I hear his mother in law might live there, but for the most part they use it for sunday brunch and to entertain out of town guests. This con-artist should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law for ripping off all these poor people who are stupidly handing over their hard earned money to him so he can live in the lap of luxury while they live in the decaying ruins of a once great city. As a Palmer Woods resident myself I find this guy even more offensive because of his complete lack of morals and how he interacts with the rest of the neighborhood. We have a concert series and a home tour each year, but when asked if they would host a concert in their massive home, or be on the home tour they asked for something like 2000 just to have the right to use their home. They are not the only church leaders with a home in Palmer Woods or one of the other nicer neighborhoods in Detroit either. There are plenty of other church leaders living in mansions and that just amazes me that their followers let them do it. If you believe that Jesus Christ existed then you would believe that he taught to give to the poor and to share your wealth with the needy. But it seems that a large number of Black and many non black mega church leaders are taking that teaching and reversing it by taking from the poor, the needy, the down trodden, and enriching themselves. At least the Catholic church only has the very top leaders living in luxury but the majority of its priests live like their church members. As you can see I clearly have a major bias when it comes to all this because I find most organized religion to be superstitious nonsense from days gone by, but I still feel that if people are going to worship then they deserve better than what they are getting.
The city of Detroit could probably solve its debt issues if it took a look at the churchs around the city and all the property they own and told them that they can have tax exempt status for a church but not the extra property.
Finally there is also a practice here in Detroit and I am sure it is common in other urban cities where the political parties are basically subjected to a shakedown by the church leaders. It is well known that if you want to win an election in Detroit you have to give a certain amount of money to these churchs to "help get out the vote". In otherwords it means you have to bribe the preacher to get him to support you and have him get his flock to support you. Ending this practice would go a long way to stopping the corruption in Detroit because as we all saw in the Kwame scandal, all the major church leaders here falling all over themselves to support him and say how it is such an injustice, eventhough he had committed adultery, theft, and who knows how many other sins. Why are they all so willing to forgive him and praise him? The money.

You make sound arguments; however, completely irrelevant to my point. Corruption exists in every relgious faction. The key to organizing this faith based city is convincing the corrupt that they are leaving money on the table with their small picture practices.

[southsider]

collectively, churches here exist in most respects for self-perpetuation.. preservation of social status quo.. many may operate food programs and the like.. but many congregants operates on the premise that their pastor must be given a certain opulence in lifestyle because of their position.. alternately, to keep pace with whites who go by the same practices.. a certain 'rigid separateness' between minister & members is maintained oftentimes in black church culture and often doesn't exist in certain mainline protestant white church groupings.. the custom of adults referring to the pastor/bishop exclusively as "pastor/bishop" instead of their real name, even in private and/or informal gatherings is one example..

Do you take this POV due to lack of exposure to any other faith based cities/economic structures?

[ragnarok1981]

My argument is not off point at all. What I was saying is that the city is made up of churches that are beyond corrupt and see no need to work together. Each pastor, preacher, bishop, or whatever title they want to give themselves see the others as competition for more money to go into their pockets. Yes there are a huge number of churches in this city and a lot of that is a result of the decay that the city is facing. Often times we will see what was once a busy commercial area start to decay and then a church will move into the store front and eventually they move out and the commercial area is dead. I would also say that another issue with making Detroit a center for "black religion" is one that I think a lot of people would be rather uncomfortable talking about. A majority of the major faiths that african americans follow tend to be rather homophobic at the least and outright bigoted at worst. There is a major prejudice against gays amongst the southern baptists, evangelicals, etc.. I am not saying that Detroit is any kind of gay haven by any means but I would hate to see it regress if it were to become a "religious" city.
But what really should be talked about here is not whether Detroit should be like Salt Lake City for the black community, but rather how we can make the city welcoming to all faiths. I don't think you will find much disagreement over the fact that if the city is to thrive it needs to have some diversity which means it needs to attract whites, asians, and latinos. Cities that are centered around one group, or one industry are almost always set up to fail and fail badly. We already saw the consequences of what happened when we focused on having Detroit be the Motor City. We ended up with a city that had little to no mass public transportation, massive sprawl and freeways that divided up neighborhoods and aided the sprawl, and when the auto industry started to decline so did the city. This may come across as an atheist rant but frankly we need to move away from superstitious beliefs and towards a more scientific based society. We have a choice, we can use our minds to study and learn and create new industry, new technology, and make the world a better place to live in. Or we can fall back on our out dated beliefs and sit around clutching an old book and pray that some higher power will make things alright while not actually working to make their lives better themselves. What the city is really lacking is the motivation to get up and work together to make the city better. Religion is not the answer here and it never will be.