Possible early plan for the People Mover?

[mtburb]

Came across this while browsing the VMC collection:



There are also two more like this. Could it be possible to be a plan for what later became the downtown People Mover, possibly even larger to include lines along the radial avenues? The above drawing may be a prototype of the Fort/Cass station.

[Jason]

That's exactly what it was supposed to be. The People Mover as-built was actually supposed to be the downtown distribution/transfer loop of a larger system [[like the L in Chicago), with, like you speculated, lines along the radial avenues.

imo, as planned it wouldn't have been a horrible system but the potion that was actually built isn't terribly useful.

[mtburb]

lines along the radial avenues.

Which avenues were there supposed to be and how far out they were supposed to go?

[jackie5275]

Which avenues were there supposed to be and how far out they were supposed to go?

As I remember, the original idea was that they were supposed to go out the spoke streets Fort, Michigan Ave, Grand River,Woodward, Gratiot, & Jefferson. They were supposed to go at least to 8 Mile on the north & the city limits on the west. I think the funding for it fell through and/or politics interfered, & the People Mover is what we ended up with. I remembe it taking a long, long time just to get that in place too.

[professorscott]

Actually originally the radial lines were supposed to go beyond Detroit, and in particular there was to be a line on Woodward out to Oakland County. Exactly where in Oakland County I don't remember. The specific hangup, as I recall it, was that Mayor Young wanted to have it be a subway from downtown partly out toward 8 Mile, and Mr. Patterson didn't like that because then it couldn't get very far out into Oakland County. And of course, in the end, it just wasn't done at all.

My memory of this is somewhat fuzzy; it was 35 years ago. So please, if anyone recalls it better, correct any errors in my recollection.

[gnome]

Dan Murphy was the Oakland County Exec from 1974 til 1991 or so. Brooks had nothing to do with the PM. The failure of the PM belongs almost entirely with Coleman. His last minute changes to the route tripled the cost of the thing.

[Scottathew]

I don't get why we aren't really even seriously planning mass transit on the radial avenues. This would be a win-win. It would help the city of Detroit, and suburban communities along the route would become more valuable as people would be moving to those neighborhoods so they can garage their car.

The big thing is that the rail must be elevated or submerged; it can NOT compete with street traffic. It needs to be MORE efficient than driving. That's how it is in New York; the subway is FASTER than driving in many cases.

I would love to see Detroit connected to Pontiac and Mt. Clemens as a start.

[Tig3rzhark]

Well the good news is that track hasn't been laid on Woodward yet, so there should still be a chance for it for the "Woodward LRT" to be elevated rail.

That would be a start and if there is success with that, then implement elevated rail on Fort St, Grand River, Gratiot and Jefferson.

Of course, that would require cities and counties in the metro Detroit area to cooperate, and we have already been given an F in that area.

[professorscott]

Well the good news is that track hasn't been laid on Woodward yet, so there should still be a chance for it for the "Woodward LRT" to be elevated rail.

There is zero chance of this. The project is too far along for a change of that magnitude, plus it would cause the cost to multiply. There is a reason nearly every big city in North America builds surface rail systems: they cost the least.

I like dreaming big myself, but even to imagine light rail on Gratiot in the next twenty years is a pipe dream. Our leadership doesn't think in those terms. If we get any light rail on Woodward in the next ten years I'll be pleasantly surprised; anything beyond that, I'll be astonished. Our political class still thinks it's 1956.

[Tig3rzhark]

There is zero chance of this. The project is too far along for a change of that magnitude, plus it would cause the cost to multiply. There is a reason nearly every big city in North America builds surface rail systems: they cost the least.

I like dreaming big myself, but even to imagine light rail on Gratiot in the next twenty years is a pipe dream. Our leadership doesn't think in those terms. If we get any light rail on Woodward in the next ten years I'll be pleasantly surprised; anything beyond that, I'll be astonished. Our political class still thinks it's 1956.

It's truly sad, but you're right professorscott.

For now, the closest thing we'll ever have to transit would be DDOT, SMART and the People Mover.

[Jason]

The point of either elevating or burying the rails is so that it doesn't get caught up in traffic. But light rail can run in dedicated medians, with the traffic lights timed to let the trains through.

That's what the fuss over Woodward's light rail is about. The private backers want curb side mixed with the traffic and everyone else wants it in its own median.

[DetroitPlanner]

Actually originally the radial lines were supposed to go beyond Detroit, and in particular there was to be a line on Woodward out to Oakland County. Exactly where in Oakland County I don't remember. The specific hangup, as I recall it, was that Mayor Young wanted to have it be a subway from downtown partly out toward 8 Mile, and Mr. Patterson didn't like that because then it couldn't get very far out into Oakland County. And of course, in the end, it just wasn't done at all.

My memory of this is somewhat fuzzy; it was 35 years ago. So please, if anyone recalls it better, correct any errors in my recollection.

The artierals out of downtown would have some type of upgraded transit on them that would connect to the people mover. that is why you have stations at fort, michigan, gratiot and woodward. A train station was also built in the Joe Louis Parking Garage. This is one reason why that 3 legged habitrail thing was built, to help distribute pedestrians to both downtown and to the people mover. I can recall being a young planner in grade school and hanging out at that job site pouring over all of the plans. I was lucky enough to have a father who was a site engineer assigned to that part of the project.

The subway would not go all the way to 8 mile but would daylight around wsu to become an overhead train then at grade from McNichols N. Brooks was not the County Executive at the time. Brooks has been in the office for only 18 years. Planning for the People Mover began in the 1970's under SEMTA. In fact if memory serves me right Oakland did not have an Executive form of goverment then.

Coleman Young had little to do with managing the construction of the people mover. It was not under the City's control until shortly before it opened in 1985. In fact the overruns is what did in the train service to the ren cen. In fact Young saved the people mover project as it had gone into a period where it was a white elephant.

[Brian1979]

I don't at all see why the spoke streets don't at least have LRT to Grand Blvd by now and we should be talking about extending the thing to 8 Mile by now too. At least Woodward, Grand River and Gratiot.

[Parkguy]

Detroit Planner is correct, as I remember it. A lot of the money evaporated with cost overruns and mysterious activities. The people mover was not quite complete when SEMTA announced that they were going to abandon the project, and Coleman let them politely know that no one was going to walk away from an unfinished elevated loop in the city. The city took over the project and got it completed with federal funds. It was always intended to be the final downtown distribution loop of a much larger system. Remember, in those days downtown was still the biggest job center in the region.

[stasu1213]

The artierals out of downtown would have some type of upgraded transit on them that would connect to the people mover. that is why you have stations at fort, michigan, gratiot and woodward. A train station was also built in the Joe Louis Parking Garage. This is one reason why that 3 legged habitrail thing was built, to help distribute pedestrians to both downtown and to the people mover. I can recall being a young planner in grade school and hanging out at that job site pouring over all of the plans. I was lucky enough to have a father who was a site engineer assigned to that part of the project.

The subway would not go all the way to 8 mile but would daylight around wsu to become an overhead train then at grade from McNichols N. Brooks was not the County Executive at the time. Brooks has been in the office for only 18 years. Planning for the People Mover began in the 1970's under SEMTA. In fact if memory serves me right Oakland did not have an Executive form of goverment then.

Coleman Young had little to do with managing the construction of the people mover. It was not under the City's control until shortly before it opened in 1985. In fact the overruns is what did in the train service to the ren cen. In fact Young saved the people mover project as it had gone into a period where it was a white elephant.

Coreection; the people mover started running in 1988 not 1985. I dont think it would go any further than downtown. I dont think that the light rail will happen in Detroit anytime soon for one, the big three is trying to make a comeback and want to sell more care to potential new breed of yuppies who are moving to detroit; and two, the politicians in this city are bought off by entities who don't want to see this thing go through

[DetroitPlanner]

Coreection; the people mover started running in 1988 not 1985. I dont think it would go any further than downtown. I dont think that the light rail will happen in Detroit anytime soon for one, the big three is trying to make a comeback and want to sell more care to potential new breed of yuppies who are moving to detroit; and two, the politicians in this city are bought off by entities who don't want to see this thing go through

Learn to read it says that it became under the city's control in 1985. It was opened in early 1987.

[Brian1979]

Learn to read it says that it became under the city's control in 1985. It was opened in early 1987.

When you say, " It was not under the City's control until shortly before it opened in 1985." It certainly looks like you meant to say that it was opened in 1985.

[DetroitPlanner]

When you say, " It was not under the City's control until shortly before it opened in 1985." It certainly looks like you meant to say that it was opened in 1985.

The link explains that it was taken over in 1985 to finish the construction because the project's budget was broke. Remember the project had started in the late 1960's and the initial funds came under President Ford. The shortly before finishing was about 2 years of a 30+ year process.