Woodward/M1 Rail -- DDOT reach accord on light rail

**BShea** · May-21-09, 02:16 PM

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...FREE/905219973

**kraig** · May-21-09, 02:38 PM

Looks like progress.

**Detroit Stylin** · May-21-09, 04:15 PM

Good finally....

**izzyindetroit** · May-21-09, 05:38 PM

Those guys mean business.

**ASR89** · May-21-09, 07:03 PM

The article says that the trains will co-mingle with traffic. Will that still mean:
A. The trains will still get their own right of way and cars will only co-mingle in the sense that parked cars will cross to driving lanes.

B. There is no dedicated right of way.

I seriously hope it isn't B. If it's a day the Tigers are playing, the trains will get stuck in traffic just like the cars and buses. I think having a dedicated right of way is a huge draw to potential riders. North of New Centre has been confirmed to have dedicated right of way.

I wish I could say that this is better than nothing. I just feel that "better than nothing" doesn't matter if what is going to exist is crappy and a "enhanced bus". Phoenix just got a light rail system. From what I have read, a lot of people like it, but due to the high number of stops and having to wait for lights, it takes twice as long as driving the whole route. That makes a lot of other people not want to ride the system.

That's just my two cents. It's still good to hear news.

**Eric_c** · May-21-09, 07:35 PM

I'm of the opinion that the system will need to tie in to some sort of Park and Ride to best accomplish the goal of getting people out of their cars and onto the streets.

Keep in mind, the initial portion between Downtown and New Center will end up being the first exposure Metro-Detroiters will have had to rail transit in decades. Prying people from their cars will be tough enough as it is, but by incorporating a Park and Ride aspect from the very beginning, and then advertising and advocating its' availability, I believe the system will be able to achieve its' highest and best use.

Something to the efffect of "Going Downtown? Park and Ride the Woodward line."

I'm aware of plenty of parking in the New Center, directly across from Henry Ford Hospital. According to the Crains article, they want a spur and a station; I say, "Perfect".

Still wondering where the car barn/yard/service facility will be located. Again, plenty of space available just West of the Lodge and South of the Boulevard, so that sounds like a nice terminus to me!

**g-dub** · May-21-09, 08:00 PM

"Its financial and organizational backers include Penske Corp. founder Roger Penske Peter, who is chairman of the M1 Rail project; Peter Karmanos Jr., founder of Detroit-based software maker Compuware Corp.; Mike Ilitch, owner of the Detroit Tigers and Detroit Red Wings and co-founder of Little Caesar Enterprises Inc.; and Quicken Loans/Rock Financial founder Dan Gilbert, whoâ€™s the projectâ€™s co-chairman."

City officials love to flex their muscle, but there's no way they can object to heavy hitters like that. These are people who actually get things done.

**g-dub** · May-21-09, 08:07 PM

Originally Posted by ljbad89

The article says that the trains will co-mingle with traffic. Will that still mean:
A. The trains will still get their own right of way and cars will only co-mingle in the sense that parked cars will cross to driving lanes.

B. There is no dedicated right of way.

I seriously hope it isn't B. If it's a day the Tigers are playing, the trains will get stuck in traffic just like the cars and buses. I think having a dedicated right of way is a huge draw to potential riders. North of New Centre has been confirmed to have dedicated right of way.

I wish I could say that this is better than nothing. I just feel that "better than nothing" doesn't matter if what is going to exist is crappy and a "enhanced bus". Phoenix just got a light rail system. From what I have read, a lot of people like it, but due to the high number of stops and having to wait for lights, it takes twice as long as driving the whole route. That makes a lot of other people not want to ride the system.

It may take a bit longer, but you don't have to worry about parking. And, it will make living along the corridor much more appealing to people who would rather not drive downtown to work, assuming they have jobs downtown. The traffic annoyances haven't been detrimental to other regions who have the same setup.

In the Chicago suburbs, Metra trains roll through the middle of town, forcing all traffic to pause for a minute, and it's no big deal. I suspect the M1 trains will run like every 20 minutes or so. And, of course, there's generally way less traffic in the affected section of Detroit than there is in the multitude of affected sections of suburban Chicago. If anything, it will open up the parking options for people attending events downtown, who will be able to park cheaply and ride [[which makes it kind of a curious thing that Ilitch would be a supporter, considering the threat to his downtown parking empire).

DetroitDad · May-21-09, 08:43 PM

I hope it's not every twenty minutes! What Midtown/Downtown/New Center locals would ever ride that? At the transit meetings they have been saying trains would be only 90 seconds to three minutes apart, depending on time of day, with the rapid transit buses being three to five minutes apart. Has anyone heard any different?

**g-dub** · May-21-09, 08:54 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitDad

I hope it's not every twenty minutes! What Midtown/Downtown/New Center locals would ever ride that? At the transit meetings they have been saying trains would be only 90 seconds to three minutes apart, depending on time of day, with the rapid transit buses being three to five minutes apart. Has anyone heard any different?

It was just a blind guess. Typically schedules are relative to time of day. Certainly the schedule has to be thought out at some point. One can do the math, but in order to have a train of two or three cars running every few minutes along that stretch at 25 mph or whatever would require a few trains, where they could get by with lower expenses and less traffic interruptions with trains going by every five minutes or so at least. Even in New Orleans, along the St. Charles line, it's at least 10 minutes at a time, and people adjust to the schedule and become accustomed to it. 8-10 minutes is standard even for the El in Chicago, even at peak commuter periods.

**Russix** · May-21-09, 09:05 PM

Originally Posted by ljbad89

The article says that the trains will co-mingle with traffic. Will that still mean:
A. The trains will still get their own right of way and cars will only co-mingle in the sense that parked cars will cross to driving lanes.

B. There is no dedicated right of way.

I seriously hope it isn't B. If it's a day the Tigers are playing, the trains will get stuck in traffic just like the cars and buses. I think having a dedicated right of way is a huge draw to potential riders. North of New Centre has been confirmed to have dedicated right of way.

I wish I could say that this is better than nothing. I just feel that "better than nothing" doesn't matter if what is going to exist is crappy and a "enhanced bus". Phoenix just got a light rail system. From what I have read, a lot of people like it, but due to the high number of stops and having to wait for lights, it takes twice as long as driving the whole route. That makes a lot of other people not want to ride the system.

That's just my two cents. It's still good to hear news.

Yes, its B.

It's runs in traffic and through downtown. The people who designed this live in outer space and have never ridden a bus or any other form of public transit. It's average speed is projected at 6 mph pending it isn't getting stuck in extra traffic on the lower woodward portion.

**dnvn522** · May-22-09, 06:39 AM

The service will be available from 6 a.m. to 11 p.m. with an estimated 75-cent toll that will be honor-based, meaning tickets are bought prior to boarding and are randomly checked during trips.

Really? Honor based? They expect that to work?

**dtowncitylover** · May-22-09, 06:43 AM

Originally Posted by dnvn522

Really? Honor based? They expect that to work?

It works in SanFran.

**detmsp** · May-22-09, 07:33 AM

Originally Posted by dnvn522

Really? Honor based? They expect that to work?

thats how it works in most cities. you can ride without buying a ticket.... but if you get asked to show it and you don't have one it's typically a $100+ fine

**daguyinthad** · May-22-09, 07:33 AM

When I went to one of the DTOGS meetings one of the people involved said that the service facility would be located in Highland Park.She said it would employ about 150 people.

**archytech** · May-22-09, 08:10 AM

Originally Posted by detmsp

thats how it works in most cities. you can ride without buying a ticket.... but if you get asked to show it and you don't have one it's typically a $100+ fine

It was like $600 in german serveral years ago. They have agents get on a both ends of the train and try to trap you while the train is moving. I made sure I always had a ticket. Most people are honest...and thats all that matter. If you really want a free ride that bad its not like they won't make their fare quota. Big deal.

I would still like to see some drawings of the proposed stations and layout of track downtown. One nice thing about the DTOGS survey was that they got input from the public...I don't feel that this private investment is really asking the public what they want. Hopefully someone won't decide to make it go one way to save money

**iheartthed** · May-22-09, 08:18 AM

So will these be two completely different systems that meet at a hub? Or will it be one system with segments built by two different entities?

**Mackinaw** · May-22-09, 09:18 AM

I've also used a system recently that uses the honor system: the advantage is that you put transit cops on board for the dual purpose of checking tickets and to create a safe feeling which entices people to use the system when they formerly [[incorrectly) associated transit with criminals.

**rb336** · May-22-09, 09:51 AM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

So will these be two completely different systems that meet at a hub? Or will it be one system with segments built by two different entities?

sounds like it will end up being three systems [[including the AA line) meeting at a New Center hub

**MDoyle** · May-22-09, 10:04 AM

I figure that the extra congestion on woodward will also be good. After work folks may think to themselves "woodward is gonna be a mess during the rush" [[there will be 2 less lanes) and with that thought in mind they decide to stick around a little while longer, goto the bar, or out to eat. Maybe even do a little shopping.

**Russix** · May-22-09, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by archytech

I would still like to see some drawings of the proposed stations and layout of track downtown. One nice thing about the DTOGS survey was that they got input from the public...I don't feel that this private investment is really asking the public what they want. Hopefully someone won't decide to make it go one way to save money

DTOGS designed an implementation for Woodward if say Michigan Ave or Gratiot were selected for the first major leg of the system. It's called the "Woodward Common Segment". Its plans are available on youtube and DTOGS website. I'm curious why you would throw out a pre-engineered plan that encompasses public input and meets the Federal requirements for applying for funding for a plan that some rich people drew on the back of a cocktail napkin. It's sad to watch the regionâ€™s future be sacrificed by incompetence just because said incompetence is able do something doesnâ€™t mean that they should. Of course this is more the status quo. I make this prediction: Their going to build it, Its going to suck and support will never materialize for anything else. â€œYes, lets get on the express train down to New Center so we can hop on Hertelâ€™s Turtle the rest of the way downtown.â€ Detroiterâ€™s are obsessed with speed and efficiency. If you are not going to build a transit system that has the potential to rival a car and entice drivers to become riders then you shouldnâ€™t build one period.

â€œHertelâ€™s Turtleâ€ is an unregistered trademark freely available for public use provided you do not claim ownership. - Russix 5/22/2009

**ghettopalmetto** · May-22-09, 12:37 PM

The most likely outcome is that the private plan will be combined with the compatible DTOGS plan. In other words, they will function as one system, with the same vehicles and continuous routing.

The difference will be in the operating characteristics. The private plan seems "designed" to serve numerous nodes over a relatively short distance. DTOGS seems intent on covering a longer distance at a higher rate of speed, with fewer stops. This isn't any different than how Portland's MAX or Baltimore's Light Rail operate.

It would be nice to know, however, whether the rail "lanes" will allow automobile traffic to drive on them, a la the TTC streetcars in Toronto.

**ejames01** · May-22-09, 12:53 PM

Not if they have kids to pickup or a 2nd job to go to.

Originally Posted by MDoyle

I figure that the extra congestion on woodward will also be good. After work folks may think to themselves "woodward is gonna be a mess during the rush" [[there will be 2 less lanes) and with that thought in mind they decide to stick around a little while longer, goto the bar, or out to eat. Maybe even do a little shopping.

**ghettopalmetto** · May-22-09, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by ejames01

Not if they have kids to pickup or a 2nd job to go to.

Then those people don't have to ride, do they?

DetroitDad · May-22-09, 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by Russix

Yes, its B.

It's runs in traffic and through downtown. The people who designed this live in outer space and have never ridden a bus or any other form of public transit. It's average speed is projected at 6 mph pending it isn't getting stuck in extra traffic on the lower woodward portion.

What!? Penske, Karmanos, The Ilitches, Gilbert and their design team DON'T ride the bus or People Mover!?

I swear I've seen Gilbert riding the Plymouth to Grand River from Livonia. Heh, could you picture him waiting on that corner for the transfer?