NS cuts Amtrak speeds to 25 MPH, 90 minute delays expected

[Russix]

http://www.annarbor.com/business-rev...arking-delays/

[milesdriven]

That's quite a delay for a route that takes only 1:45 to drive. Hopefully these federal dollar will make the train a logical choice again.

[DetroitPole]

And the Republicans oppose these federal dollars. Why, so we can build railroads in Afghanistan? Thank G-d those federal monies are coming.

[j to the jeremy]

Hey, Baghdad's getting a light rail before we are! Go Imperialism!

[professorscott]

I have two issues with this thread.

First of all the title is inaccurate. NS can't cut Amtrak speeds at all. NS has simply said it is only willing to maintain the track so as to support operating speeds of 25 to 60mph. So the number 25 in the headline is entirely misleading.

Second of all, the state plans to use some of the track-upgrade money it is getting specifically to upgrade the track beyond NS standards so the trains will be able to operate at the higher speeds.

The only piece of news is that NS is cutting how much money it is willing to spend maintaining that section of track, since 60mph is a high enough operating speed for NS's purposes. Not much news at all, there.

[Richard]

They are their tracks I believe that they are saying to take the money and build your own tracks,NS detests any passenger traffic on their rails and rightly so.

If I had a house that I bought and paid for what right would the GOV have in forcing me to accept a tenant.

Look at the amount of lobby dollars in congress in rail verses other transportation ventures and we wonder why the rail system is in the state it is in.

[jsmyers]

scott is partially incorrect

NS can cut the train speed by issuing slow orders, which are temporary speed limits. Basically every line has a table that tells the engineer and conductor how fast they are allowed to go [[among other things). Issuing a slow order is effectively pasting over the speed limits with slower ones. They do this because track inspections reveal that the tracks are no longer up to the standards required for the published speed limits

NS hasn't spent money on maintaining those tracks for some time now. And NS doesn't want to own the rail line anymore. The state of Michigan is going to purchase it and start to rehab it [[with the money mentioned earliers).

It is pretty much a forgone conclusion at this point that the line will be owned by the state and either leased over the long term to Amtrak or operated by Amtrak in the short term. NS will probably continue to be a secondary tenant [[by having trackage rights) but it will cease to be a "freight line." It isn't really a freight line now. It gets up to 8 passenger trains a day and very little freight.

[iheartthed]

They are their tracks I believe that they are saying to take the money and build your own tracks,NS detests any passenger traffic on their rails and rightly so.

If I had a house that I bought and paid for what right would the GOV have in forcing me to accept a tenant.

Look at the amount of lobby dollars in congress in rail verses other transportation ventures and we wonder why the rail system is in the state it is in.

I believe when the rail companies purchased the tracks from the government the agreement was that Amtrak would have priority. I have to go look that up again, but I think Amtrak has priority use on all tracks which it operates passenger service, whether or not the government owns it via federal law.

[drjeff]

I believe when the rail companies purchased the tracks from the government the agreement was that Amtrak would have priority. I have to go look that up again, but I think Amtrak has priority use on all tracks which it operates passenger service, whether or not the government owns it via federal law.

In my experience that is certainly not the case. The trip from Ann Arbor to Chicago usually takes at least 5 hours, usually because at some point in western Michigan the Amtrak train sits on a siding while a freight train passes.

I enjoy taking the train but currently it is far too expensive for the time it takes to get there. When it was under $50 roundtrip to go to Chicago I could deal with a delay. Now it's $75 each way- no thanks. You can fly for cheaper than that.

[iheartthed]

In my experience that is certainly not the case. The trip from Ann Arbor to Chicago usually takes at least 5 hours, usually because at some point in western Michigan the Amtrak train sits on a siding while a freight train passes.

I enjoy taking the train but currently it is far too expensive for the time it takes to get there. When it was under $50 roundtrip to go to Chicago I could deal with a delay. Now it's $75 each way- no thanks. You can fly for cheaper than that.

That's because the feds don't enforce the rule:

[[c) Preference Over Freight Transportation.— Except in an emergency, intercity and commuter rail passenger transportation provided by or for Amtrak has preference over freight transportation in using a rail line, junction, or crossing unless the Board orders otherwise under this subsection. A rail carrier affected by this subsection may apply to the Board for relief. If the Board, after an opportunity for a hearing under section 553 of title 5, decides that preference for intercity and commuter rail passenger transportation materially will lessen the quality of freight transportation provided to shippers, the Board shall establish the rights of the carrier and Amtrak on reasonable terms.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/us...8----000-.html

[Hermod]

In my experience that is certainly not the case. The trip from Ann Arbor to Chicago usually takes at least 5 hours, usually because at some point in western Michigan the Amtrak train sits on a siding while a freight train passes.

I enjoy taking the train but currently it is far too expensive for the time it takes to get there. When it was under $50 roundtrip to go to Chicago I could deal with a delay. Now it's $75 each way- no thanks. You can fly for cheaper than that.

As a general rule, the railroads do give priority to the AMTRAK schedules on their lines and try to run their freights around the passenger schedules. This is only true if the AMTRAK train remains on schedule. Once the AMTRAK train gets "off schedule" then it begins to interfere with the freights that the railroad planned around the AMTRAK schedule. In those cases, the AMTRAK train becomes the dispatcher's "red-headed stepchild" and no longer has priority. AMTRAK often gets behind schedule due to their own late starts or overlong stations stops.

[Joseph C. Krause]

We should use eminent domain to twin many train routes or build new ones. The cash to do this should come out of highway funds. Perhaps some interstates should even be completely eliminated to capture these funds. No more squabbles with industry then...

[luckycar]

The Ann Arbor to points west was double tracked in the 1980s[[I know because it ran behind the poop plant).I belive it was Conrail at the time.After Conrail was broke up,the track was NS or CSX.Must be NS now.Anyway,a crew came by one day and started welding the one track.A few months later the other track was taken out.So the roadbed is still there,I don't know far west it runs.

[Rocko]

Let me see how many of these things I can hit at once:

JS Meyers explains how "slow orders" work very well. Basically they are a modification of the timetable speed limit which is imposed until track conditions are improved.....which NS is making clear they are not going to do, except maintain the track to allow their small amount of freight traffic [[usually one train each way per day, in some places two trains where a road freight and a local both run) to run at 25mph. I believe the present slow orders for Amtrak look like this: 30mph CP Ypsi to CP Lake [[east of Chelsea), 40mph CP-Lake to somewhere in the East Jackson neighborhood, then 60mph West-Jackson to Albion. So YES, Norfolk Southern can lower the speed limit for both freight and passenger trains due to track conditions.

This will majorly f*** with the trains' ability to operate anything close to schedule, even once they are out of the slow order zone. Once the train is behind and operating out-of-slot, so to speak, interference from other freight traffic really adds up. Battle Creek is always a bad spot because the Amtrak and NS trains share track for a few miles with the Canadian National, on their busy Toronto-Port Huron-Chicago mainline. A late arriving westbound Amtrak at Porter Jct. in Indiana will delay it even further on NS busy Chicago East mainline. Eastbound trains arriving at West Detroit Jct. out-of-slot will likely be delayed getting onto the CN and going up toward Pontiac. One delay quickly spirals into longer and longer delays.

The ironic thing is, while NS is slowing Amtrak trains down to a crawl between Battle Creek and Ypsilanti, Amtrak is extending the high-speed ITCS signalling system on their part of the Michigan Line westward to New Buffalo, MI, and in the future down through Michigan City to Porter, encompassing the entire 97-mile segment from Kalamazoo to Porter. Presently, the high-speed stretch operates between Kalamazoo and the somewhere just west of Niles, MI, and trains operate across this segment at a maximum of 95mph. ZOOM!

The law states that Amtrak trains are to be given priority over freight traffic. The law does not state that the freight railroad that owns tracks Amtrak operates over must maintain them to Amtrak standards. This current situation is interesting, and is completely politically charged. NS does not want the Michigan Line, and they have not wanted it since they acquired it from Conrail. Despite the fact that it was once the primary artery for New York Central traffic going west from Detroit, it is essentially a branch line now. In 2009, NS leased away the Kalamazoo branch, which runs from Elkhart, IN to Grand Rapids. Prior to that time, NS ran a road freight from Elkhart to Wayne and another Wayne to Elkhart via Kalamazoo. Most days this train would run around or exceed 100 cars. But that is for all of the mixed freight traffic from Wayne to White Pigeon, MI, Niles to Kalamazoo, Jackson to Lansing, and Kalamazoo to Wayland. A shortline could handle the freight operations and make money, but for NS the investment is not worth the small return, so maintenance is minimal. Now that another railroad operates the Elkhart-Grand Rapids segment, the freight from Augusta eastward operates to Elkhart via Detroit and Toledo, a very round-about way. NS has already leased out the Jackson to Lansing branch. NS knows if they do not maintain the Michigan Line to Amtrak standards it will force the state's hand to make the purchase quickly [[and likely on NS' terms), so they can be relieved of the direct cost of upkeep, even if the state deems NS the operator of freight traffic on the line. THE WHOLE THING IS POLITICAL. The segment from Kalamazoo to Dearborn was until recently maintained with a 79mph maximum track speed in some places, and 70mph many others.

Hermod says it well - as long as Amtrak maintains its schedule or something close to it, it is given priority over freight movements. In some cases, even if off-schedule, good dispatchers will figure out how to expedite an Amtrak movement. I've ridden the Southwest Chief before, which runs from Chicago to LA. Much of its route is the BNSF Transcon, arguably the busiest mainline in the country. Many stretches of this track are maintained to such a high standard that priority trailer-train and container freights can do 70mph and the Southwest Chief can do 90 - the fastest long distance train in the Amtrak system. I've seen some beautiful dispatching of the Chief over the BNSF - with the Amtrak snaking in between opposing freight trains and then crossing over and overtaking freights going the same direction. Truly Amazing.

And yes, as luckcar said, the Michigan Line used to be entirely double-track from Detroit to Chicago. After Conrail moved nearly all-through freight traffic from Detroit to Elkhart via Toledo instead of Jackson, they single-tracked much of the line in the late 1980s. I believe Amtrak has talked about connecting some of the passing sidings on their portion west of Kalamazoo in the past - in effect creating some stretches of longer double-track, but none of this has been done to date.

In short - the lack of NS maintenance to a high track standard is a political move to get the State of Michigan and Amtrak to work out a sale NOW. They need to be careful to not just give into NS' wishes and make sure they get a fair deal. Hopefully this will all go through soon and repairs can quickly begin to get the trackage back up to a decent level of speed.

[Hypestyles]

.. the federal government needs to step in and take back ownership of all rail lanes in the country, through purchase or siezure.. that's like some Shipping company owning I-75 and so forth.. this is a total obstacle toward high speed rail developments..

[Richard]

.. the federal government needs to step in and take back ownership of all rail lanes in the country, through purchase or siezure.. that's like some Shipping company owning I-75 and so forth.. this is a total obstacle toward high speed rail developments..

The problem is when the Gov starts getting into the taking business the lines become blurry as to what can be taken and from whom.

The obstacle toward high speed rail is this countries non desire to fund true high speed rail. We like to throw billions at round about solutions without getting to the realities .

We are puttering around at whopping 90 mph speeds while other countries that are 1/3 the power of this country are reaching now in excess of 200 mph

[luckycar]

.. the federal government needs to step in and take back ownership of all rail lanes in the country, through purchase or siezure.. that's like some Shipping company owning I-75 and so forth.. this is a total obstacle toward high speed rail developments..

Or some private concern owning a bridge that is an international border crossing.......

[Richard]

Or some private concern owning a bridge that is an international border crossing.......

It has been there how many generations then all of the sudden it is the root of all evil when it comes to what is wrong with the city,high speed rail have been available in other countries for years and now all of the sudden it is NS/Con-rail being the evil one?

Have taxpayers been supporting the bridge or the NS rail in the past? I do not believe Amtrak is self supporting. Nothing personal towards you Lc

The rail was started with a 5000 acer land grant from the feds in the 1800s?

[Hermod]

It has been there how many generations then all of the sudden it is the root of all evil when it comes to what is wrong with the city,high speed rail have been available in other countries for years and now all of the sudden it is NS/Con-rail being the evil one?

Have taxpayers been supporting the bridge or the NS rail in the past? I do not believe Amtrak is self supporting. Nothing personal towards you Lc

The rail was started with a 5000 acer land grant from the feds in the 1800s?

No, the "central railroad" was built prior to the authorization of federal land grants to railroads.

It was built in part by loans from the state of Michigan secured by stock shares in the railroad. Unfortunately, the railroad went into bankruptcy during the financial "panic" of the late 1830s. The road was reorganized in favor of the creditors and the state holdings became worthless paper.

[jsmyers]

Thanks for the details Rocko.

[Scottathew]

I'm all for investment in trains, but 110 really isn't fast enough. We need some bullet lines between the major cities. Train lines that make traveling by car a joke.

[Rocko]

110 is the maximum they'll be able to go on current right-of-ways that are not significantly rebuilt. What they need is to actually get to 110 and then run both express and more local trains. An express could stop in Detroit, Dearborn, AA, Jackson, Battle Creek, Kalamazoo and then bullet to Chicago. No need to mess around with the northern burbs or smaller stations like Albion, New Buffalo or Michigan City. These communities do need to be served however, and a less-express train[[s) should still serve them. Slow orders aside, Amtrak westbound 351 is the closest thing to an express currently, which makes no stops after Kalamazoo going west in the morning.

[Scottathew]

110 is the maximum they'll be able to go on current right-of-ways that are not significantly rebuilt. What they need is to actually get to 110 and then run both express and more local trains. An express could stop in Detroit, Dearborn, AA, Jackson, Battle Creek, Kalamazoo and then bullet to Chicago. No need to mess around with the northern burbs or smaller stations like Albion, New Buffalo or Michigan City. These communities do need to be served however, and a less-express train[[s) should still serve them. Slow orders aside, Amtrak westbound 351 is the closest thing to an express currently, which makes no stops after Kalamazoo going west in the morning.

That's a good idea with a lot of bang for the buck!

[jsmyers]

If the line were grade separated and electrified [[both very expensive long term propositions), trains could be going up to 125 and probably sometimes 150.

It is more important not to go slow [[or stop) than it is to go very fast.

[Rocko]

It is more important not to go slow [[or stop) than it is to go very fast.

EXACTLY! Aside from junctions and the crossing over in Battle Creek, the slowest stretch of this whole line between Detroit and Porter is west of Ann Arbor, where there are many curves as the old alignment hugs the Huron River shore. These curves could certainly be realigned and banked to increase the speed, but even that would cost lots of $$$ for only a few minutes. And going a little slower is ok because it's so scenic! =D

The key is exactly as JSmyers said - stop stopping or slowing down excessively. Connecting passing sidings to form longer areas of double-track will help. Increasing turnout speed where there are switches would involve entire new switch assemblies, but this would eliminate slowing down so much when trains do have to go into a siding. And of course, eliminating those slow orders will go a long way too.