Is Detroit Public Schools worth saving? Charter process sparks debate

**begingri** · May-31-11, 11:00 AM

BY CHASTITY PRATT DAWSEY

DETROIT FREE PRESS EDUCATION WRITER

The Detroit Public Schools, as we know it, could disappear in a few years.

A DPS action plan would charter up to 45 schools, close 20 and leave about 70 that include the best-performing schools, some newly constructed and a handful of special-education schools that are expensive to run.

The process already is under way with organizations invited to apply to DPS for charters.

With such a concerted effort to shrink DPS, local leaders, educators, politicians and taxpayers are debating a question: Is DPS worth saving?

Some families say, yes, even driving in from the suburbs for some DPS programs. They and others say charter schools, popular at the moment, offer no guarantee of academic success. Others say DPS, with a $327-million deficit, is beyond repair, and the district should convert fully to charters -- a type of taxpayer-funded school that is independently run. It's an important question crucial to the future of Detroit, which also is in debt and trouble, said Gary Miron, an education researcher at Western Michigan University.

"Is DPS worth saving? Certainly," he said. "The real question is, 'Are the odds of improving the situation going to be better with the alternative?' "

Roy Roberts, DPS's new emergency manager, told the Free Press he knows some say the district isn't worth saving.

"I am convinced that Detroit Public Schools can be saved," he said in a written statement, "recognizing that it could take a different shape and that everything is on the table."

Is Detroit Public Schools worth saving? Charter process sparks debate

Annette Lotharp drives each school day from Belleville to take her two children to a Detroit Public School on the west side.

At DPS's Foreign Language Immersion & Cultural Studies School, Derrick, 11, and Kira, 5, learn Mandarin Chinese. The school also offers French, Spanish and Japanese immersion.

Lotharp said DPS's thriving programs are reason enough to halt a plan under way that could convert about one-third of its schools to charters next year and to stanch a rising movement to convert the entire district one day.

"DPS has a lot of fantastic schools that are not being recognized," she said. "They need to be marketed more and supported."

A block away, charter school founder Doug Ross operates his new school that has an extra-long day -- 8 a.m.-5 p.m.

He holds the opposite view and said he believes DPS's financial and academic failures are just too great to overcome. The district should get out of the business of running the day-to-day operations of schools, he said.

Ross has founded several charter schools in the city, including University Preparatory High School, which graduates nearly all of its students. He said DPS leaders, and most urban superintendents, are failing students.

"Not a single district in America has been able to manage large numbers of schools, period," he said. "The answer is independently managed schools held to high standards of performance."

The divergent views frame an ongoing public debate about the future of DPS.
With a plan already in place to charter about one-third of the district, some are asking: Is DPS worth saving?

Continued at: http://www.freep.com/article/2011053...0311/1001/news

**Hypestyles** · May-31-11, 02:31 PM

The organizational structure of DPS should be totally revisioned, the sooner the better.. stronger, more efficiently run public schools, working alongside public charters, universal standards applied for student progression and skills development. Have more specialized-curriculum middle and high schools, including vocational path schools, also post-secondary credit courses for schools that lead to a university or community college.. Encourage more diverse career paths for city students, including various sciences. Extend the school year and/or school hours.

**jt1** · May-31-11, 04:55 PM

I'm curious why the State of Michigan takeover is never mentioned in the DPS debates.

My numbers may be a bit off but I believe they were something along these lines:

Prior to takeover: 140,000
After takeover ended: 100,000 students

Prior to takeover: Multi-million dollar rainy day fund
After the takeover: Hundreds of millions in debt

DPS has and continues to be ineffective but I often wonder if the state takeover was a coup to destroy DPS. The reason was low test scores yet there were many, many rural districts with worse scores that the state didn't touch.

DPS may have sealed it's fate but let's not ignore the state of Michigan's role as being a major player in the current situation. Somehow the news and local media never point out the major failings and disaster that was the state takeover.

**jt1** · May-31-11, 04:57 PM

Note: This was the takeover during the Engler administration, not the current appointment of an emergency financial manager

**Wesley Mouch** · May-31-11, 05:22 PM

Originally Posted by jt1

I'm curious why the State of Michigan takeover is never mentioned in the DPS debates.

My numbers may be a bit off but I believe they were something along these lines:

Prior to takeover: 140,000
After takeover ended: 100,000 students

Prior to takeover: Multi-million dollar rainy day fund
After the takeover: Hundreds of millions in debt

DPS has and continues to be ineffective but I often wonder if the state takeover was a coup to destroy DPS. The reason was low test scores yet there were many, many rural districts with worse scores that the state didn't touch.

DPS may have sealed it's fate but let's not ignore the state of Michigan's role as being a major player in the current situation. Somehow the news and local media never point out the major failings and disaster that was the state takeover.

Oh, you must be kidding. The Republicans want NOTHING to do with Detroit, if at all possible. Its nothing but election dynamite to them. The idea that there's a conspiracy to destroy the DPS suggests paranoia.

I'll agree if you said the republican's just don't care. But conspiring to kill DPS for some weak reason?

What about every other urban schood district in the country. All a vast conspiracy?

Evil Republicans in spaceships looking to invade the schools to take what, exactly. The riches? Ha! Union busting? Well, maybe fun for sport, but there's a lot of other easier unions with less political clout. Hey, here's an idea. Maybe they actually care about our future. Maybe they would like to see all Americans embrace the possibility of success. Education for kids in the City [[pick one) is mostly an embarassment to all of us. Here's an idea. Let's do anything to solve this problem, including fire everyone involved. Be radical. Blow up this dysfunctional system. Keep doing it until someone starts educating kids, and not building a patronage machine. This debate should be all about the kids. Nothing else matters. Nothing.

**Autoracks** · May-31-11, 07:13 PM

Detroit needs schools. Thats all. Without schools it probably is a city with no future

**fryar** · May-31-11, 07:56 PM

Originally Posted by jt1

Note: This was the takeover during the Engler administration, not the current appointment of an emergency financial manager

I'm inclined to think positively of Roberts, but the state clearly does not have a record of nothing but unqualified successes in the EFM department.

**begingri** · May-31-11, 08:19 PM

Jeff Gerritt: Is DPS Worth Saving? Hell, yeah

http://www.freep.com/article/2011053...s|text|Opinion

**Wesley Mouch** · June-01-11, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by fryar

I'm inclined to think positively of Roberts, but the state clearly does not have a record of nothing but unqualified successes in the EFM department.

Don't you think that speaks more to the magnitude of the emergency, rather than the state's ability? In fact, that's why the state's executive [[Snyder) is asking for more power to the EFM's. So they can get the job done thoroughly.

**RickBeall** · June-03-11, 12:30 PM

"Is DPS worth saving? Certainly," he said. "The real question is, 'Are the odds of improving the situation going to be better with the alternative?' "

The odds are probably better than staying with what we have. The schools already failed.

**begingri** · June-09-11, 11:25 PM

DPS slows plan to change schools to charters

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...=2011110609030

**maxx** · June-10-11, 07:20 AM

Any school system is only as good as the people in it. If the superintendent fills the deputy supers' slots with incompetent cronies, then the system is no good. Likewise, if a small school spends most of its class time teaching from the Bible or the teachings of Elijah Muhammad, the parents of the kids attending might be happy, but the outcome is not a well-rounded student. It may be that the larger school will be more intimidating just by its size, but the people running it then need to work harder to overcome this. A larger school system should be able to organize kids according to their abilities and help those with special needs.

**maxx** · June-10-11, 07:39 AM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Oh, you must be kidding. The Republicans want NOTHING to do with Detroit, if at all possible. Its nothing but election dynamite to them. The idea that there's a conspiracy to destroy the DPS suggests paranoia.

I'll agree if you said the republican's just don't care. But conspiring to kill DPS for some weak reason?

What about every other urban schood district in the country. All a vast conspiracy?

Evil Republicans in spaceships looking to invade the schools to take what, exactly. The riches? Ha! Union busting? Well, maybe fun for sport, but there's a lot of other easier unions with less political clout. Hey, here's an idea. Maybe they actually care about our future. Maybe they would like to see all Americans embrace the possibility of success. Education for kids in the City [[pick one) is mostly an embarassment to all of us. Here's an idea. Let's do anything to solve this problem, including fire everyone involved. Be radical. Blow up this dysfunctional system. Keep doing it until someone starts educating kids, and not building a patronage machine. This debate should be all about the kids. Nothing else matters. Nothing.

Our economy at present is not offering much employment hope to people with college degrees, so why should kids from under-educated families be interested in learning stuff that doesn't offer much future? Today's education better be about surviving and the gov. should be loaning money to new business startups since the banks are sitting on the money they have.

**Detroitej72** · June-10-11, 07:47 AM

Originally Posted by jt1

DPS may have sealed it's fate but let's not ignore the state of Michigan's role as being a major player in the current situation. Somehow the news and local media never point out the major failings and disaster that was the state takeover.

DPS was in dire straights long before the state stepped in and dissolved the school board. Those clowns had free cars, cell phones, huge expense accounts, and more perks than could be counted. Remember when Lonnie Bates was confronted with the question of why he had to fly first class on the board's dime? His answer was because it gave black boys inspiration to be successful. I will say that I was less than thrilled with the results that the state sponsored "reform" board produced.

One of the biggest problems with DPS is that it is too big. Warren, which is the third largest city in the state has 5 different school districts in it's boarders. Perhaps a mix of public and charter schools would produce better graduation rates.

As for charter schools being the greatest thing since sliced bread, the jury's still out on that one. There have been quite a few charters that were pretty lousy, and had success rates on par with DPS. I think a good model for any charter wanting to open in the city should be to copy what University of Detroit High School has been doing, as they have an almost perfect graduation rate.

**Wesley Mouch** · June-10-11, 08:39 AM

Originally Posted by jt1

I'm curious why the State of Michigan takeover is never mentioned in the DPS debates.

My numbers may be a bit off but I believe they were something along these lines:

Prior to takeover: 140,000
After takeover ended: 100,000 students

Prior to takeover: Multi-million dollar rainy day fund
After the takeover: Hundreds of millions in debt

DPS has and continues to be ineffective but I often wonder if the state takeover was a coup to destroy DPS. The reason was low test scores yet there were many, many rural districts with worse scores that the state didn't touch.

DPS may have sealed it's fate but let's not ignore the state of Michigan's role as being a major player in the current situation. Somehow the news and local media never point out the major failings and disaster that was the state takeover.

Can you quote any sources on this 'disaster'? Why did the state take over the district if all was so wonderful. Sincere question. I see the disdain for state takeovers, and without more info, this looks to me like talking points on why state takeovers can never be effective.

**rjk** · June-10-11, 09:25 AM

Originally Posted by Detroitej72

DPS was in dire straights long before the state stepped in and dissolved the school board. Those clowns had free cars, cell phones, huge expense accounts, and more perks than could be counted. Remember when Lonnie Bates was confronted with the question of why he had to fly first class on the board's dime? His answer was because it gave black boys inspiration to be successful. I will say that I was less than thrilled with the results that the state sponsored "reform" board produced.

One of the biggest problems with DPS is that it is too big. Warren, which is the third largest city in the state has 5 different school districts in it's boarders. Perhaps a mix of public and charter schools would produce better graduation rates.

As for charter schools being the greatest thing since sliced bread, the jury's still out on that one. There have been quite a few charters that were pretty lousy, and had success rates on par with DPS. I think a good model for any charter wanting to open in the city should be to copy what University of Detroit High School has been doing, as they have an almost perfect graduation rate.

Did he actually say that?
It sounds like something straight out of The Onion.
Of course there's probably and endless list of Detroit politician qoutes that sound Onionesque.

**firstandten** · June-10-11, 10:13 AM

Mr. Bates sure did say that I'm ashamed to say

**Richard** · June-10-11, 10:22 AM

The charter schools charter standards are supposed to be set by the school board if they are not adhered to the board can pull the charter so who is dropping the ball? A charter school is not like opening a 7-11 they still have rules and guides that they have to follow, the benefit is supposed to be a bit more flexibility and smaller class sizes but the basic learning standards still apply.

**Locke09** · June-10-11, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by Detroitej72

One of the biggest problems with DPS is that it is too big. Warren, which is the third largest city in the state has 5 different school districts in it's boarders. Perhaps a mix of public and charter schools would produce better graduation rates.

Each charter school is considered its own school district. So Detroit, with its plethora of charter schools, has more school districts within its borders than probably any other municipality.

Out of 19 bids, only 5 schools will now become charters. Why is this? Well, here's what the aforementioned article says:

"Top-regarded charter schools companies in the nation – such as Green Dot Public Schools and Knowledge if Power Program – declined to become involved in DPS’ ambitious charter school plan.

In selecting the three companies, DPS passed up several firms that have spotty records or no charter school experience including. Charter School Administration Services, which saw four of its local failing charter schools shut down including Cherry Hill School of Performing Arts where a janitor raped an 11-year-old in 2002; the Detroit Association of Black Organizations, which is paid under contract to run a DPS alternative school that has a graduation rate of about 3%, and the Robert Shumake/Take the Land Nonprofit Housing Corp., named for a Southfield businessman linked to failed investments by the City of Detroit's two pension funds."

Why aren't there more firms with good records chomping at the bits?

**maxx** · June-10-11, 12:13 PM

http://niemanwatchdog.org/index.cfm?...skthisid=00503
"...Whenever a school has a dramatic increase in test scores in only one or two years, ask questions about the participation rate: How many kids started the school? How many were tested? Were low-performing students held back in a previous grade to inflate the scores? Reporters should also check to see if there has been any verification to make sure that there was no cheating [[e.g., a high erasure rate, changing scores from wrong to right). Who graded the papers? Did teachers have access to the test questions before the test was given? If so, they might have taught the test questions during practice sessions.

Ask questions of charter schools about skimming, excluding, winnowing out low-scoring students. Ask about the proportion of special ed students, and watch for numbers of spec-ed that do not include the most severely disabled. Many charters take children with the mildest disabilities while leaving the most challenging spec-ed to the regular public schools. Ask about the proportion of Limited English Proficient/English Language Learners [[LEP/ELL) students. Most charters have exceptionally small proportions of LEP/ELL as compared to local public schools..."

**Wesley Mouch** · June-12-11, 02:26 AM

An excellent point. We worship statistics. We should be very careful. [[Although that doesn't mean that they a wrong.)

**Zacha341** · June-12-11, 08:16 AM

Yes, he did. That was one of those 'classic' JUSTIFICATION comments that would proceed many others as things have gone on.

Originally Posted by firstandten

Mr. Bates sure did say that I'm ashamed to say

**Zacha341** · June-12-11, 08:25 AM

No shock here. The estimate number of investors coming forth that fast to charter so many schools was always doubtful.

Originally Posted by begingri

DPS slows plan to change schools to charters

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...=2011110609030

**Zacha341** · June-12-11, 08:26 AM

And EFM brought in by Granholm: A Democrat.

Originally Posted by jt1

Note: This was the takeover during the Engler administration, not the current appointment of an emergency financial manager

**Schoolcraft** · June-12-11, 06:10 PM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Can you quote any sources on this 'disaster'? Why did the state take over the district if all was so wonderful.

http://www.mackinac.org/7556

Why do you think the people of Detroit are so angry that the state took over again? Of the six years that the state had taken over previously, five of them they overspent funds. The reasoning for the takeover was " test scores were low and not enough kids were graduating," but anybody can graduate kids who aren't ready to succeed outside of high school and that's exactly what they did. Grad rates became higher, but test scores pretty much stayed subpar. Obviously, when the state took over last time and tanked the budget, the newspaper wasn't very eager to get that story out. They just happened to neglect that story again after this state takeover. The school board that resumed duties after the takeover was incompetent and was an easy scapegoat for the sinking ship that it inherited.