Aesthetically, When Was Detroit At Its Worst? [[Now vs. Late 1980s/Early 1990s)

[313WX]

I'm just curious to read some of the opinions from others.

Many would argue Detroit is aesthetically at its worst now because of how empty it is. However, someone from another forum made an interesting case about Detroit looking worser than it does now around the year 1990 because while it was an overall denser city, half-crumbled and burnt-out building were everywhere. Even with downtown Detroit, while most would agree it looks aesthetically better than it did in the late 1980s and early 1990s, there's no question we have less critical mass now [[so they sort of cancel each other out).

So what do you think? Was Detroit at its worst aesthetically in the late 1980s/early 1990s or is it at its worst now?

[Meddle]

Gotta say I'd rather see vacant fields than collapsed burned out hulks.

[1KielsonDrive]

Downtown and the city overall are much worse but the mid-town area is slowly blooming. Regardless, Detroit is doing badly and suffering much worse than any other similar sized city in the nation.

[lilpup]

Hudson's used to be a brooding hulk sitting there as a huge constant reminder of failure.

[softailrider]

Having worked in the city 5 days a week for 32 years, I would say the city looks the worst it's ever looked now. I think the city looked way better when Archer and Young were Mayor, all in all, I think it looked a slight bit better when K.K was Mayor.

This policy of letting the vacant hulks burn out may improve things. I'm sure it's lowering demolition costs.

As far as midtown goes, I'm not seeing any stark, noticable improvements to the neighborhoods at all. Does Woodward Avenue look better around there? I guess a little, maybe.

[Gistok]

This is not an easy question to answer....

Downtown Riverfront... same
Lower Woodward.... better
GCP... better and worse [[fewer buildings but restorations of survivors)
Other parts of downtown [[some areas better, others worse)
Midtown... break it apart...
1) Brush Park.... hell yes better...
2) Cass Park.... . worse
3) Medical Center... better...
4) Cultural Center... better...
5) Cass Corridor... some better/some worse

New Center... some parts better/others struggling.
Palmer Woods, Sherwood Forest, Indian Village... same.
Boston Edison.... struggling
Rosedale Park/Grandmont/East English Village... struggling, and with much lower housing prices.
Rest of Detroit neighborhoods... worse....

Even 48224 one of the nicest zip codes in Detroit on the far east side... going from an owners to a renters neighborhood... worse...

It's a mixed bag... generally worse.

But in doing this better/worse decision making... there are some mixed bags... such as lower Woodward. In the 70s/80s the buildings were getting real seedy looking, but there was first floor retail [[not just wig shops).... now the buildings are in much better shape [[rental living)... but the retail is worse...

[gazhekwe]

Gistok is right on, in my view. The hope meter is better now. The worst time for me was about 1967-1977, watching the slide and feeling an absence of hope. We've been waiting all our adult lives for the Renaissance to begin, and all we saw was false starts. Even though the town looks worse than ever, from Brightmoor to Jeff-Chalmers, the hope meter is making solid progress finally.

Neighborhoods need some kind of catalyst to take control of the way they feel and look. Cub's example is one way, That is the next step that would shift the hope meter into high gear. It isn't up to the Government, it's up to the People.

[Buy American]

This video says it all about how Detroit looks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nzxh...&feature=share

[DetroitPlanner]

Most neighborhoods today are in shambles compared to what they were back in the 80's and 90's.

There was no garbage piled up places or open and dangerous buildings were few and far between.

[Danny]

Detroit got very worse in the early 1980s to mid 1990s for these reasons:

1. The rise of violent crime

2. The crack epidemic in the ghettoes.

3. Detroit Police corruptions

4. Abuse of city government

5. More white flight especially middle class flight.

6. The failed auto industry vs. foreign car market.

7. Electing some old liberal " Show Horse" leaders.

8. After Hudson Dep.t Store closed, so did the all the retail along Woodward Ave downtown business corridor.

It took Dennis Archer to pick up Detroit pieces and put it back to together.

WORD FROM THE STREET PROPHET

I as wait for Detroit to face either hope ot more DOOM AND GLOOM!

Neda, I miss you so.

[Detroit500]

My question is, what can be done to stabilize neighborhoods. So many neighborhoods are in dire need of assistance. We also have a problem in this area that stability has shifted to Oakland County away from the city proper and the inner ring suburbs. Even Grosse Pointe is having struggles more severe than Birmingham for example.

Investing in the Downtown, building lofts and other exciting structures is certainly dynamic, dramatic, and enjoyable to see a comeback, but its important to remember that this was never New York City... Most people who grew up in the city of Detroit lived in homes that more resemble Royal Oak or Ferndale today than these high-rise structures. Families do not want to spend $150k on a 800 sq. foot home.

Tearing down vacant land is a start, but this whole condensing the city project has to be sped up, quickly, mothballing the vacant land for future use. It is a simple fact that as energy prices continue to rise, people will be moving closer to wear they are working, and Detroit and Southfield [[and possibly Troy) seem poised to really take advantage of that.

[SWMAP]

Mayor Bing needs to implement a very "robust [[worse word than "epic!)" ordinance enforcement program. it needs to be vast and powerful, in light of the movement in the city from local ownership to renting from outsiders. One personal example: the once-lovely house next to me is now owned by an investor. He has a renter in it - a single mother of five children. She does have a job. She also has a boyfriend that moved in, so seven people. But no lawn-mower or idea that grass should be mowed at all. No idea that her overfull Courville container should not sit parked in front of the house all week, no concept that the seven tires that they have piled up in the alley behind the garage need to be managed and removed. No thought that the kids have ruined the front door and are chipping away at the front steps because they are bored. And where is the owner - doesn't he need to see that all this is taken care of? I bet a lot of people on this Board are facing the same thing. But there is nowhere to go. If the owner does not himself register the property as a rental [[Ha!) then there is no inspection. There is only the most lackadaisical response from Buildings & Safety. They say that a rental property must be registered, which is not helpful to me!

So, in a city made up more and more of rentals, the most valuable thing to do to save our housing and neighborhoods is to beef up inspections & enforcement. But have we heard anything about such a program from Bing? No - he's working on bringing all the renters from the eastside to the westside - and I don't see any vision past that!

[Bham1982]

My question is, what can be done to stabilize neighborhoods. So many neighborhoods are in dire need of assistance. We also have a problem in this area that stability has shifted to Oakland County away from the city proper and the inner ring suburbs. Even Grosse Pointe is having struggles more severe than Birmingham for example.

I vastly prefer Grosse Pointe homes and overall feel to Birmingham, but am probably buying in Birmingham because I think it represents a much more solid long-term value.

I am genuinely worried about the "nicer" suburbs bordering Detroit. I lived in NYC for a few years after college, and, since moving back, I notice the subtle changes in these communities. Mack Ave. environs do not look nice in the Pointes. East of Kercheval is as nice as ever, of course, but that's a pretty narrow strip.

Huntington Woods/Pleasant Ridge are also a bit in question. Schools are worse, and the "non-ritzy" streets look worn.

[GUSHI]

Detroit in worst now, atleast in my old hood. More burned down houses or empty houses, old folks dying off, young people moving in dont take care of the property, like the older folks did.

[coracle]

The downtown area is far better than it was in the early 80's. My first visit was in 81 to find an extra location for the company I then worked for. I spent an hour driving around the area to get some atmosphere and found it dour, dismal, threatening and practically devoid of life, and I felt it reflected on the attitude of the people that ran it and the attention we would get. The buildings looked sad and miserable and totally decrepit. [[the weather was bad as well!)
Without hesitation we opened in a suburb about 30 miles north of the City. Now I visit the city several weekends each year and find it to be a lively attractive [[still gritty) place. A lot has been accomplished in the downtown area particularly in the last 10 years and it's a credit to whoever accomplished it. I love to visit Detroit. I still wouldn't locate a small business there yet.

[bailey]

I vastly prefer Grosse Pointe homes and overall feel to Birmingham, but am probably buying in Birmingham because I think it represents a much more solid long-term value.

I am genuinely worried about the "nicer" suburbs bordering Detroit. I lived in NYC for a few years after college, and, since moving back, I notice the subtle changes in these communities. Mack Ave. environs do not look nice in the Pointes. East of Kercheval is as nice as ever, of course, but that's a pretty narrow strip.

Huntington Woods/Pleasant Ridge are also a bit in question. Schools are worse, and the "non-ritzy" streets look worn.

Not to thread jack or be a dick, but if you seriously believe that the only area not in decline in the GPs is the area between Kercheval and the lake...well... how do I put this nicely?... I'd really question how you came by that conclusion because it's fucking retarded. [[apologies to Trig).

the commercial area of Mack on the GP side is practically fully occupied. Mack from cadiux to moross on the Detroit side has some empty car dealerships...set those aside and it's also just about fully occupied. mack from alter to cadiuex has been seedy forever. I've been actually encouraged by how well the area is hanging on.

[Detroit_uke]

Oh, much worse now. Been on this block for 32 years. 14 abandoned houses now....some boarded up - some not - if the house was abandoned - it's stripped. The corner house has been burned out for 15 years and it's still there....people use it to dump their trash...loaded with unwanted furniture, tires and bags of trash. Neighbors don't stay long. Empty school on the corner. Used to be a grocery store two blocks away - closed. Used to be able to walk to the meat market, bakery, etc.....they're all gone - got held up one too many times. People started moving out when their kids reached high school age - wanted to get them into a good high school without having to pay tuition. Neighbors don't stay long - you never see them move in and you never see them move out. The buildings on Michigan Avenue that have been vacant for more than 25 years are still there...crumbled. Warren Avenue - all I can say is there must have been a tornado. sad, so sad. It's like a cancer....

[Bham1982]

Not to thread jack or be a dick, but if you seriously believe that the only area not in decline in the GPs is the area between Kercheval and the lake...well... how do I put this nicely?... I'd really question how you came by that conclusion because it's fucking retarded. [[apologies to Trig).

Mack...on the

You may be correct that I'm ignorant re. the Pointes, but I feel there are some issues present that weren't there before. Every community in the Metro area has some issues to deal with.

And I didn't mean to say that the only good parts of the Pointes are Kercheval to the Lake. 100% of the Pointes are "good", BUT I don't think 100% of the Pointes are affected equally by Detroit's East Side.

If I were to buy in the Pointes [[say towards Mack) for the long-term [[say 30 years), how confident am I that the schools will maintain the same standards, and the homes will remain pristine over that period?

It's very possible I'm wrong, and the Pointes do very well over this period. It probably has a lot to do with Detroit's performance, since the Pointes are somewhat more tied in with downtown than other affluent suburbs. If downtown revitalizes, it could well be that the Pointes outperform [[for example) Birmingham.

And there are some worrying issues on my side of town too. There's some trashy types on the south end of town, who must be renting foreclosed homes. I couldn't believe it until I saw it, but there's a few blocks off Woodward in Birmingham that looks like something out of Deliverance [[at least on a hot afternoon, when folks are outside).

[SWMAP]

The NYT today on falling homeownership rates in our country
Detroit needs a real effective campaign to enforce housing staock and amenity ordinances if Detroit is to be a city of rentals - and that's what it already is!
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/01/bu...g.html?_r=1&hp

[bailey]

You may be correct that I'm ignorant re. the Pointes, but I feel there are some issues present that weren't there before. Every community in the Metro area has some issues to deal with.

And I didn't mean to say that the only good parts of the Pointes are Kercheval to the Lake. 100% of the Pointes are "good", BUT I don't think 100% of the Pointes are affected equally by Detroit's East Side.

If I were to buy in the Pointes [[say towards Mack) for the long-term [[say 30 years), how confident am I that the schools will maintain the same standards, and the homes will remain pristine over that period?

It's very possible I'm wrong, and the Pointes do very well over this period. It probably has a lot to do with Detroit's performance, since the Pointes are somewhat more tied in with downtown than other affluent suburbs. If downtown revitalizes, it could well be that the Pointes outperform [[for example) Birmingham.

I get your point, but they were saying that 20-25years ago... and what's happened? not a whole lot. Detroit has continued its death spiral apace and it would appear, the only schools to suffer are those like GP North that are part of the district that pulls from Harper Woods. The disparity between North and South [[and the lower schools that feed them) is pretty disturbing as it does raise some legitimate concerns about long term stability.... but again.. they were saying that 20-25 years ago too.

as to buying near mack... it's a bit double edged. Definitely in the Park, you'll get more house for the money, but like anything its all about location right? If you buy on the last block next to any major road/border road, you're running the same risk.

But hey, Rick Michigan follows through on the threat to make all schools Schools of choice...whether they want to or not... and all bets are off.

[jackie5275]

Oh, much worse now. Been on this block for 32 years. 14 abandoned houses now....some boarded up - some not - if the house was abandoned - it's stripped. The corner house has been burned out for 15 years and it's still there....people use it to dump their trash...loaded with unwanted furniture, tires and bags of trash. Neighbors don't stay long. Empty school on the corner. Used to be a grocery store two blocks away - closed. Used to be able to walk to the meat market, bakery, etc.....they're all gone - got held up one too many times. People started moving out when their kids reached high school age - wanted to get them into a good high school without having to pay tuition. Neighbors don't stay long - you never see them move in and you never see them move out. The buildings on Michigan Avenue that have been vacant for more than 25 years are still there...crumbled. Warren Avenue - all I can say is there must have been a tornado. sad, so sad. It's like a cancer....

In your neighborhood, particularly since the residency requirement got dropped, it's been declining quickly. I've noticed it's been on the express elevator to hell, especially the last 4-5 years. Not knocking ya, but just my weekly observations when I'm there. It wasn't too bad in the early 90s when I lived there, but boy what a difference a few changes like the residency requirement make.

[gnome]

Right now - today, these the good-ol' days for someone.

We've driving by looking in the rear-view mirror for so long it seems normal. That is why we've careened into the ditch.

[SWMAP]

How would residency affect the downward trend in property maintenance for good or bad? I'd like to understand.

[English]

I've noticed it's been on the express elevator to hell, especially the last 4-5 years.

Totally agreed. I lived on the West Side and went all over the place as a child, teen, and young adult, and the first decade of the 21st century KILLED the near westside 'hoods. The "last 4-5 years" marker is dead on. As late as 2004, I was seriously contemplating purchasing my childhood home. Today, you couldn't pay me to do so. The last of the homeowners has passed away or moved on to the 'burbs, and it's getting pretty dire.

Even the view from the freeways on the West Side is different than it was when I left Detroit in 2005. I can't believe how many homes in 5-6 years along the Lodge and I-96 have their windows completely blown out. You can't tell me they were like that in 2005; I drove those routes every day, sometimes several times a day. It has to have been the Great Recession's effect. My guess is that sometime between the Super Bowl's aftermath and the Big 3 chiefs heading to DC with hats in hand, the bottom fell out...

[English]

I should say that I was born in the mid-1970s, so I don't have any memories of Detroit being this beautiful and blight-free place. However, one thing that I will say about the 1980s is that as crazy as the random crack fueled violence and Devil's Night were, the city was just far, far more *populated* back then.

I had a daily grand tour of the city as a wee thing because I went to Bates near the Grosse Pointe border, but lived on the West Side. The bus ride took anywhere from 40 minutes to an hour each way. There are entire neighborhoods where my childhood classmates lived that no longer exist as viable entities. For instance [[one example among many), I have friends who went to McMichael Middle School and I remember that neighborhood well because my grandparents owned a house on Wabash. How many people live there today? Of course it wasn't populated as it was in the 50s or 60s in my memory, but there were still plenty of families around.

In fact, I'd argue that I perceived the population as pretty stable during my school years [[c. 1981/82-1995), slightly less when I returned home from undergrad in 1999, but the past decade as being the real doozy that featured the flight of most of the remaining black middle class and large numbers of the working class.

Of course, that's just my perception, not a scientific study. But I confess that the phenomenon really bothers me.