City looks at ways to spruce up Belle Isle

**Searay215** · May-16-11, 07:46 AM

Okay what is your opinion on having a fee to access Belle Isle? Personally I think it is a good way to raise money to repair and care for it. It works for the Metro parks as well as state parks.
Not so sure about having a carnival on it though.....that has pros and cons.
Your thoughts?......

http://www.detnews.com/article/20110...-up-Belle-Isle

**adamjab19** · May-16-11, 07:47 AM

$2 for residents $4 for non residents per car or something. That would be totally acceptable!

**DetroitPlanner** · May-16-11, 08:32 AM

Revenue from rides helps keep the island parks in Toronto afloat. These do not detract from the overall park experience. I see it opened May 7. Roadtrip?

**BrushStart** · May-16-11, 08:39 AM

I think a fee for Belle Isle makes perfect sense. A $2.00 fee for city residents is not going to keep anyone from using the park. A soda costs $2.00 for pete's sake. Also, JoAnne Watson is crazy to think that people are going to be "priced-out" of the park. Belle Isle will never charge more than $5.00 for admission when the Riverwalk is free. Perhaps the fee will also keep some of the riff-raff out who just won't bother dealing with paying a toll and going through a gated entrance.

At the same time, a carnival sounds like a horrible idea. Turning Belle Isle into some kind of side-show circus couldn't get any worse. Detroit needs to stay classy. Keep Belle Isle the way it is- a pristine natural environment. No more gimmicks. Also, I don't understand the $5 million dollars needed to build a toll booth and staff it. Seems like that could be done for <250k/year. Isn't the idea to recoup some of the costs through tolls?

Vox · May-16-11, 09:01 AM

Originally Posted by BrushStart

I think a fee for Belle Isle makes perfect sense. A $2.00 fee for city residents is not going to keep anyone from using the park. A soda costs $2.00 for pete's sake. Also, JoAnne Watson is crazy to think that people are going to be "priced-out" of the park. Belle Isle will never charge more than $5.00 for admission when the Riverwalk is free. Perhaps the fee will also keep some of the riff-raff out who just won't bother dealing with paying a toll and going through a gated entrance.

At the same time, a carnival sounds like a horrible idea. Turning Belle Isle into some kind of side-show circus couldn't get any worse. Detroit needs to stay classy. Keep Belle Isle the way it is- a pristine natural environment. No more gimmicks. Also, I don't understand the $5 million dollars needed to build a toll booth and staff it. Seems like that could be done for <250k/year. Isn't the idea to recoup some of the costs through tolls?

I like the toll idea. One night of cruising will equal a lot of cash for the island. And if they can't pay, too bad. That would allow families to enjoy the island once again.

And why can't the city plop a carnival in Gabriel Richard park? Electric Park did just fine there...

**401don** · May-16-11, 09:10 AM

A toll during high usage times would make sense. I don't think it's necessary weekday mornings for instance. It's too bad you Americans don't use loonies and toonies. It would be very easy to use automated machines that take coins and cards to save on expenses.

**slick** · May-16-11, 09:22 AM

Weekends all day and maybe after 6 PM on weekdays.

Automated lanes and two human collectors would work.
I always wondered who does the math for projects. always seem way overpriced.

no carnival, its a natural park, Gabriel richard park or even chene park would be great places for a carnival.

**bailey** · May-16-11, 09:25 AM

Originally Posted by Searay215

Okay what is your opinion on having a fee to access Belle Isle? Personally I think it is a good way to raise money to repair and care for it. It works for the Metro parks as well as state parks.
Not so sure about having a carnival on it though.....that has pros and cons.
Your thoughts?......

http://www.detnews.com/article/20110...-up-Belle-Isle

The problem with Watson is that she's stupid and in charge of things. I hate to break it to Joanne, but Parks are not free. Yes they're a city asset, but maintenance is paid for by the taxpayers. The costs associated with running the parks well are outstripping the resources alloted to run them. So in order to improve them one can either find more money in the budget, or raise taxes to generate the money, or charge a fee. Pick one or stop bitching about how belle isle needs to be improved.

The additional bonus with a fee or seasonal pass you capture all those non residents using belle isle. The tricky part will be managing to keep the money going toward the parks... I imagine a new trough from which to drink is very attractive to many at CAYMAC..

**iheartthed** · May-16-11, 09:35 AM

A carnival on Belle Isle? I'd rather see a zoo there...

I think a car toll makes sense. Two dollars won't even get you half a gallon of gas nowadays, so that's not gonna deter anyone who really wants to go.

**Fnemecek** · May-16-11, 09:50 AM

From the Department of Numbers Pulled Out of One's Ass, as quoted in the Detroit News:

Adding a toll booth would cost $5 million to $6 million for construction and staffers, Minter said. "All of that has to be looked at," Minter said.

Let's see, I can build a 1,000 square foot home, materials and labor for less than $100,000. I suspect one could build a couple of toll booths for less than that.

That just leaves the cost of staffing said toll booth. Let's assume 3 shifts of 2 workers per shift, working all year. That works out to 12,480 man hours.

$5 million in projected annual cost / 12,480 man hrs = $400.64 per man hour.

I believe it's time to start mandatory drug testing for all City of Detroit employees, starting with the director of our Recreation Department.

**Detroitnerd** · May-16-11, 09:51 AM

This fee is brought up over and over again and is a nonstarter.

Want to spruce up Belle Isle, Detroit? Do it!

**Bham1982** · May-16-11, 10:10 AM

IMO a public park should not have required entrance fees; or at least not for Detroit residents.

It defeats the whole purpose of publicly owned space and public recreation.

And I do think a fee would price out some folks. If I can barely put food on the table, why would I waste money on Belle Isle, when there are free recreational options closer to home?

**iheartthed** · May-16-11, 10:13 AM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

IMO a public park should not have required entrance fees; or at least not for Detroit residents.

It defeats the whole purpose of publicly owned space and public recreation.

And I do think a fee would price out some folks. If I can barely put food on the table, why would I waste money on Belle Isle, when there are free recreational options closer to home?

Well, technically it's not an entrance fee, it's a car toll. You could still walk [[or bike) across the bridge for free.

**Bham1982** · May-16-11, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Well, technically it's not an entrance fee, it's a car toll. You could still walk [[or bike) across the bridge for free.

True, and good point. Folks could still walk or come by bus, or carpool to reduce costs.

I personally don't like admission fees for municipal parks. Perhaps for non-residents, but Detroiters should have free access to the park.

**rhythmc** · May-16-11, 10:44 AM

A carnival is a dumb idea. A fee to enter makes no sense considering upkeep is supposed to be maintained by tax dollars. Making it family friendly [[in keeping the riff raff off) will probably go a long way in sprucing it up. Save carnivals for other smaller parks.

**Searay215** · May-16-11, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

True, and good point. Folks could still walk or come by bus, or carpool to reduce costs.

I personally don't like admission fees for municipal parks. Perhaps for non-residents, but Detroiters should have free access to the park.

So Metro Beach should be free to Macomb residents but Wayne and Oakland county residents should pay by your way of thinking right?

If you use it, you should pay.....besides you can walk or take a bus and still get in free. Life if not a free ride....sometimes you have to pay. Are there other free parks in the city? The city rec centers charge fees, so why not a fee for upkeep of the park.
http://www.detroitmi.gov/Portals/0/d...ule%202011.pdf

**Bham1982** · May-16-11, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by Searay215

So Metro Beach should be free to Macomb residents but Wayne and Oakland county residents should pay by your way of thinking right?

I don't think suburbanites should pay either, but I would charge them before Detroit residents, because Detroiters are spending the dough to keep the park running.

Same reason Detroiters shouldn't have a say in directly managing [[or even using) GP or Dearborn parks.

**DetroitPlanner** · May-16-11, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

I don't think suburbanites should pay either, but I would charge them before Detroit residents, because Detroiters are spending the dough to keep the park running.

Same reason Detroiters shouldn't have a say in directly managing [[or even using) GP or Dearborn parks.

Belle Isle is a regionally sized park with dimishing regional attractions. You can't compare Belle Isle to Ford Field or Shain Park.

**Bham1982** · May-16-11, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

Belle Isle is a regionally sized park with dimishing regional attractions. You can't compare Belle Isle to Ford Field or Shain Park.

But, regardless of size or stature, it's city owned and managed.

Unless ownership/management changes, the park should be for the primary benefit of city residents.

**Searay215** · May-16-11, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

But, regardless of size or stature, it's city owned and managed.

Unless ownership/management changes, the park should be for the primary benefit of city residents.

I think your missing the point here.....90% of users are Detroit residents. Thus the fee would be to maintain the park for the benefit of the residents....it would take the burden of the cost off of the city and shift it to the users. This is why the city is in trouble....no one wants to pay for anything. There are no free rides any more....with the population [[tax revenue) shrinking, I don't think there is a choice here but to look for other means of paying for upkeep.
I am not saying deny the residents the use of it....just like Metro parks, if you walk it they are fee also.

**Jimaz** · May-16-11, 01:19 PM

It would be nice to take advantage of Belle Isle's water somehow. Maybe something like an underwater observatory would be popular?

**hamtown mike** · May-16-11, 01:20 PM

We have batted this idea around for years on DY with most giving their approval of a carefully considered fee.

5 million? Bologna/Baloney! A set of one way tire shredders for the exit and 5 booths, 3 automatic coin and 2 manned on the isle itself just as you come off the bridge- reducing congestion on Jefferson. Handicap tagged vehicles free all others $3. DYC members and others can purchase an electronic pass

The city would not be charging you to use Belle isle. Admittance is free. [[remember those things at the end of your legs?-Walk on and bike on totally free.) The city would simply be charging your car $3 to come on the isle.

As much as this could be seen as a tax upon [[mostly Detroit) residents who use the park it can also be seen as a tax break/tax re-appropriation for those Detroiters who do not use it.

I cannot blame the powers to be who want to add something to make it more appealing to offset those you may lose by charging an automobile fee. But a carnival like thing? I wonder if any of the 5 million was part of accommodating the carnival. Wait never mind. you don't need to find a way to make up lost revenue created by the automobile fee-There was no revenue to begin with. Unless they charge for picnic/shelter permits.

**crosswordgirl** · May-16-11, 01:37 PM

definite fee to all users but no carnival. what about concerts?

**drjeff** · May-16-11, 01:40 PM

I'd be willing to pay a fee. I think the way to go would be something like $2 per car per day or else buy a season pass for maybe $30. That's how it works with the metroparks.

One thing that's essential is that the money recovered from such a fee be earmarked strictly for Belle Isle improvements and maintenance and not flushed into the general fund to never be seen again.