Would shutting down certain businesses in Detroit help the city?

[wolverine]

Any city you go, you see plenty of folks loitering about liquor stores, and usually nothing good comes out of that. There's a liquor store in my neighborhood that operated near a subway station, and many people in the area would specifically exit certain stairways or sometimes get off at the next stop because they were tired of getting harassed, asked for money, or witnessing a fight break out. The city fixed the problem by banning panhandling and then citing / arresting people who loitered at the corner or were causing problems. It's been over a year, and there hasn't been any problems. The area was cleaned up.

In the story I've posted below, an entire business was shut down to end a problem and residents are reporting improvements.

http://news.medill.northwestern.edu/...aspx?id=185227

The closed store will be demolished by the city
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=West+M...220.19,,0,1.58


So how big of a problem is this in Detroit? Does it affect quality of life in your neighborhood? Would you like to see the city close businesses where people congregate outside and cause problems?

I would think the minor losses in tax revenue would be substantially outweighed by gains in safety.

[1KielsonDrive]

I think your basic idea merits consideration. We recently had two gas stations/convenience stores here in the Ypsi area, owned by the same company. They had ongoing problems in the stores and on the driveways. The township threatened them with closure after many police visits and documentation. They finally got new management and started policing their own property to avoid additional problems. It's working for now. The City of Detroit though, would have much problems doing this just because of sheer size and lack of policing. But it certainly wouldn't hurt.

[JohnnyFreddy]

I think your basic idea merits consideration. We recently had two gas stations/convenience stores here in the Ypsi area, owned by the same company. They had ongoing problems in the stores and on the driveways. The township threatened them with closure after many police visits and documentation. They finally got new management and started policing their own property to avoid additional problems. It's working for now. The City of Detroit though, would have much problems doing this just because of sheer size and lack of policing. But it certainly wouldn't hurt.

I agree with your statement 1KielsonDrive wholeheartedly, and up the ante by
saying , That problem and solution could also be compounded by forcing these
businesses [[in my neighborhood in Detroit) and also, maybe more especially,
the neighborhood Gas Stations, being hang outs for beggars, shady characters,
and credit card frauds...but even the owners' overall concern for the appearance
of their establishments. It's as if they have no invested interest in the neighborhood, but are only interested in the money they can walk away with from
the people who are keeping their doors open...the customers.
Now, if some sort of incentive can be put forth, to secure their assurance that
the untoward element can be kept from their customer base...that could go a long
way to improving, not only their business, but the surrounding neighborhood
as well.
Now granted, there is something to be said for the mantra of, "If you place people
within a bubble of false idyllic, by removing any alarming element at these public
scenarios....when any isolated incident does befall them, their guard will not be
up, therefor creating a more traumatizing event when it does happen."
...In other words, Detroit being a large Urban area, perhaps an obvious threat,
directly in their eyes, as opposed to a false sense of security, is better, to
keep the customers [[us) on our toes, and therefore....protected?
Of course, I would much prefer if the element of danger were not present, but,
the reality is....it is.
I guess my point [[or one of them any way)...is, It would be nice if these Gas Stations didn't look like they belonged in a 'Third World' country, rather than
where decent people live, and frequent their establishment...like where I live,
in an historic neighborhood, where college students, and teachers with families,
and LOTS of young people....live, and try to conduct themselves like human beings, rather than desperate animals, with no other options than to rob, and steal, and take and ruin. These establishments need to invest in the areas
where they make their living, so the neighborhood where they are located, can
benefit from their presence, rather than their presence being a reason for
blight and crime and misery.
NO MORE GHETTO STYLE GAS STATIONS AND STORES AND RESTAURANTS.

[bdglsmn]

I agree with your statement 1KielsonDrive wholeheartedly, and up the ante by
saying , That problem and solution could also be compounded by forcing these
businesses [[in my neighborhood in Detroit) and also, maybe more especially,
the neighborhood Gas Stations, being hang outs for beggars, shady characters,
and credit card frauds...but even the owners' overall concern for the appearance
of their establishments. It's as if they have no invested interest in the neighborhood, but are only interested in the money they can walk away with from
the people who are keeping their doors open...the customers.
Now, if some sort of incentive can be put forth, to secure their assurance that
the untoward element can be kept from their customer base...that could go a long
way to improving, not only their business, but the surrounding neighborhood
as well.
Now granted, there is something to be said for the mantra of, "If you place people
within a bubble of false idyllic, by removing any alarming element at these public
scenarios....when any isolated incident does befall them, their guard will not be
up, therefor creating a more traumatizing event when it does happen."
...In other words, Detroit being a large Urban area, perhaps an obvious threat,
directly in their eyes, as opposed to a false sense of security, is better, to
keep the customers [[us) on our toes, and therefore....protected?
Of course, I would much prefer if the element of danger were not present, but,
the reality is....it is.
I guess my point [[or one of them any way)...is, It would be nice if these Gas Stations didn't look like they belonged in a 'Third World' country, rather than
where decent people live, and frequent their establishment...like where I live,
in an historic neighborhood, where college students, and teachers with families,
and LOTS of young people....live, and try to conduct themselves like human beings, rather than desperate animals, with no other options than to rob, and steal, and take and ruin. These establishments need to invest in the areas
where they make their living, so the neighborhood where they are located, can
benefit from their presence, rather than their presence being a reason for
blight and crime and misery.
NO MORE GHETTO STYLE GAS STATIONS AND STORES AND RESTAURANTS.

This post is spot on! Most of the gas stations in Detroit are filthy and run down. These business owners should be forced to keep them clean and in good repair but they aren't. They clearly don't care what their property looks like and that right there is a good indication of how they feel about the people in the neighborhood that they serve.

[Detroitnerd]

Ah, yes. Clear away the symptoms of poverty, and it will be Birmingham overnight.

Do you realize you are talking about harassing business owners, many of whom have invested decades into their businesses? Who are you to dictate to them whether they may remain in business?

[Bham1982]

If the business is breaking the law, it should be shut down.

But there is nothing inherently wrong with liquor stores or party stores. I don't think we should automatically stigmatize a whole class of businesses.

And Detroit needs more businesses, not fewer. Gas stations and 8-Mile clubs, for example, may be oft-criticized, but they're contributing to the tax base.

[majohnson]

Are Detroiters willing to pay an extra 3 cents per gallon as a premium toward ideallic upkeep of the gas station? Probably not. The gas station owners will not present their business above customer expectations.

Why would a person expect a gas station or any other business to look better than the neighborhood generally?

[BrushStart]

Are Detroiters willing to pay an extra 3 cents per gallon as a premium toward ideallic upkeep of the gas station? Probably not. The gas station owners will not present their business above customer expectations.

Why would a person expect a gas station or any other business to look better than the neighborhood generally?

I am as pro-business as they come, but business won't do a lot of things unless they are forced to. Airlines wouldn't impose strict safety measures without oversight from the FAA. Restaurants wouldn't always stay clean and safe without the health inspector. Factories wouldn't maintain safe conditions without the threat of OSHA. Landlords wouldn't make necessary repairs without pressure from the city and state. Builders wouldn't build sturdy structures without home inspectors and code enforcement. Mortgage brokers wouldn't make responsible loans without federal oversight.

The same is true of business and property owners in Detroit. If they all just adhere to bare minimum standards, people will have no choice but to patronize whatever dump of a store or facility they put out. Just because you can get away with running a rat hole because options are so limited doesn't mean that you should be able to. I'd like to think our standards of decency are not tied to the whims of what the collective of gas station owners think is suitable. Make them cut the grass, pull the weeds, fix broken windows, and repair crumbling pavement on their property. If their store becomes a haven for crooks, muggers, dope dealers, and vandals, then they should seek solutions to that problem.

I'm sure people are going to say that making businesses do anything other than what they want is "SOCIALISM," but holding businesses to certain standards is nothing new. Americans have always used their power through the government to raise the bar and balance the freedom of enterprise against the safety of the public. Does anyone really want to go back to the time when people lived in "factory towns" owned by their employer and children worked on dangerous machines all day? This may seem like a distant example, but it is the same concept.

[wolverine]

Ah, yes. Clear away the symptoms of poverty, and it will be Birmingham overnight.

Do you realize you are talking about harassing business owners, many of whom have invested decades into their businesses? Who are you to dictate to them whether they may remain in business?

Well let's look at both sides. I agree some businesses may simply fall victim by being associated with crime. The example I posted shows the building with no loitering signage. But were they calling the police? What about the business image. Contributing to blight?

As for harassing business owners who have operated for decades, also consider residents of the area that have been there for decades. Maybe the benefits of many families are more important than just one. I'm happy to hear residents of this Chicago neighborhood feel better about where they live. Isn't that what's really most important Detroitnerd?

[Wesley Mouch]

I am as pro-business as they come, but business won't do a lot of things unless they are forced to. ...Make them cut the grass, pull the weeds, fix broken windows, and repair crumbling pavement on their property....

So let's have some code enforcement, and loitering enforcement.

Good regulation is important, but the problems of Detroit don't stem from too much or too little regulation, they stem from lack of care by the citizens. Where they care, things thrive -- see for example Eliza Howel neighborhood or the Redford Business district by the theatre. They've chased drug dealers from the corner store recently, with the help of the business and police. It can be done, if you care enough. Unfortunately, much of the city establishment and politicians care about city patronage jobs and 'home rule', not quality of life, city, or schools for kids. End of rant.

[BrushStart]

So let's have some code enforcement, and loitering enforcement.

Good regulation is important, but the problems of Detroit don't stem from too much or too little regulation, they stem from lack of care by the citizens. Where they care, things thrive -- see for example Eliza Howel neighborhood or the Redford Business district by the theatre. They've chased drug dealers from the corner store recently, with the help of the business and police. It can be done, if you care enough. Unfortunately, much of the city establishment and politicians care about city patronage jobs and 'home rule', not quality of life, city, or schools for kids. End of rant.

Right on. I think code enforcement coupled with community action is the key. Businesses and residents have to work together on this and in the end, both will profit.

[Meddle]

This post is spot on!

The post is babbling and rambling all over the place. I have no idea why it says or is even trying to say.



My vote? Outlaw nosey busy-bodies that want to control the thoughts and actions of others; the so-called 'moral majority' that thinks their stuff don't stink.

Would you like to see the city close businesses where people congregate outside and cause problems?

You mean places that are actually doing business? As opposed to vacant, run-down buildings?

[Meddle]

So let's have some code enforcement, and loitering enforcement.

You want cops to hang around small businesses chasing customers away. You want them to write tickets to people who can't afford transportation and can barely afford to eat. Tickets that won't be paid, which might get warrants issued and send more cops out to drag someone out of their home [[if they have one) because they were standing on a street corner.

[old guy]

You want cops to hang around small businesses chasing customers away. You want them to write tickets to people who can't afford transportation and can barely afford to eat. Tickets that won't be paid, which might get warrants issued and send more cops out to drag someone out of their home [[if they have one) because they were standing on a street corner.

Lost me on that one.

[Detroitnerd]

As for harassing business owners who have operated for decades, also consider residents of the area that have been there for decades. Maybe the benefits of many families are more important than just one. I'm happy to hear residents of this Chicago neighborhood feel better about where they live. Isn't that what's really most important Detroitnerd?

I remember city leaders were up in arms when one business owner decided to build a large, lighted, highly visible liquor store on the East Side. This was a business owner who had operated a smaller store in the area for some time. Some council members went apeshit and had a big protest. Little did they know that the business owner had already gone door-to-door asking residents if they'd like a nice, well-lit liquor store. Overwhelmingly they said yes. Don't think for a second that these stores wouldn't exist if they weren't in demand, and don't project your NIMBYism onto local residents who are thankful to have people willing to sell them food, provide bill-pay services and sell stamps. Isn't that what's really most important, wolverine?

[ejames01]

The Mopes are the the ones that are chasing customers away. People will avoid stopping and spending $90 to fill their gas tank because of the idiots that are hanging around and might spend a buck on some Philly Blunts or a bag of chips.

You want cops to hang around small businesses chasing customers away. You want them to write tickets to people who can't afford transportation and can barely afford to eat. Tickets that won't be paid, which might get warrants issued and send more cops out to drag someone out of their home [[if they have one) because they were standing on a street corner.

[Meddle]

"911, what is your emergency?"
"My husband's beatin' on me, he done shot up the house and is threatenin' to whoop my ass"
"I'll have someone come over there as soon as they get done writing tickets to some kids for hangin' around outside a store."
"Well, OK then. I'll wait, I know y'all gotst to handle the impo'tant stuff first"

[Richard]

If you are a store owner renting the property why spend money on improving someone else's property.Most cases it is only a five year gig anyways once your paperwork is done it on to a motel and now the biggest thing pharmacies,medicare pays more then food stamps on the side.

If you are the property owner and have a tenant paying every month why fix it up and spend to collect the same.Why fix it up when the cliental is just going to tear it up again anyways,an out of order sign is way cheaper then a plumber.

And its the neighborhood suffering ,store owner sold the beer to the guy hanging out in the parking lot so telling them to move on is like telling your costumer to get out.They do not buy six packs they buy one beer at a time ,good costumer.Or they are uneasy about forcing certain patrons to hang out elsewhere.

So one way other cities have addressed this is by having the store owner sign a blanket trespass agreement with the local PD ,a sign is posted on the building and any LEO driving through the lot at anytime can trespass somebody for hanging out,drinking in public is just a given for arrest,and it takes the direct pressure and involvement from the store owner,its a bit safer approach and it works.

7-11 Takes a high set of standards approach,if they are not met you are out ,but the difference is a store in the hood averages 40k to 60k a years verses 7-11 franchise upwards of $150k a year using a base of 2000 sqft basic they both have the same start up costs,the difference ? One reports all income and pays taxes on such and the other reports what is necessary to cover costs and sends the money elsewhere in most cases.

You ever see a 7-11 in the hood?

[fryar]

Isn't this the same debate we were just having in that other thread? Clubs with shootings out front?

[Wesley Mouch]

You want cops to hang around small businesses chasing customers away. You want them to write tickets to people who can't afford transportation and can barely afford to eat. Tickets that won't be paid, which might get warrants issued and send more cops out to drag someone out of their home [[if they have one) because they were standing on a street corner.

Meddle, this suggests that you've never seem what's going on in the 'hood.

"Barely afford transportation and can barely afford to eat?" Oh, my bleeding heart cries. You underestimate drug sales revenues.

No one ever starved because an officer made the 'move along'.

The businesses and residents of these neighborhoods should have some say in their community, not just bleeding hearts.

[1KielsonDrive]

Ah, yes. Clear away the symptoms of poverty, and it will be Birmingham overnight.

Do you realize you are talking about harassing business owners, many of whom have invested decades into their businesses? Who are you to dictate to them whether they may remain in business?

I can't speak for others commenting here, but I sure ain't saying close 'em down. I'm saying clean 'em up. Sweeping, scrubbing, raking, trimming, a coat of paint are all inexpensive, though occasionally, labor intensive, ways of upgrading your property and contributing to it's appearance and safety. I set aside a day each week, in addition to other days when I'm there for the main purpose of the business. I clean the yard and the alley - all the way from one street to the next, and the sidewalks, too. So far, it's cost me my time and a few bucks here and there. Now, granted I'm not a gas station/party store and my property isn't as large, but everyone has to start somewhere. At times, I feel like it all goes for naught. Three hours later, the trash is back. Sometimes it's just wind, but oft times it's people who just throw crap around all the time. I witness it. It started somewhere. I even came in during my closure of two weeks to work and make sure the property was in good condition. If I don't do it, who will? As bad as Detroit's police response is, I suspect they'd never be able to enforce anything. But it would sure be nice if they were proactive. When I had my businesses in Detroit, I learned never to call the DPD, because they'll never help you, they'll only hassle you. If the DPD or any department showed up - just hide or get the check book out. You are correct, some people would like the poor to just disappear. I don't correlate a safe, clean, well-lighted environment at a business with making the poor disappear. The poor need to be addressed. As a business owner I may not give them hand outs, and I may not allow them to control my property. I have to find other ways to be involved in assisting them. One of those ways is volunteering at various agencies.

[1KielsonDrive]

Are Detroiters willing to pay an extra 3 cents per gallon as a premium toward ideallic upkeep of the gas station? Probably not. The gas station owners will not present their business above customer expectations.

Why would a person expect a gas station or any other business to look better than the neighborhood generally?

Many business owners will just because they have pride in their business.

[fryar]

Good point about what you call a high set of standards - where the franchisee basically volunteers to certain restrictions, like the blanket trespass agreement or [[presumably) audits as a precondition for being able to get into the game at all. Perhaps a BID or some other kind of neighborhood association can start to make similar requirements.

[1KielsonDrive]

Right on. I think code enforcement coupled with community action is the key. Businesses and residents have to work together on this and in the end, both will profit.

Yep. Everyone has to get involved. It involves much more than just calling the cops or forcing businesses to shut down.

[1KielsonDrive]

You want cops to hang around small businesses chasing customers away. You want them to write tickets to people who can't afford transportation and can barely afford to eat. Tickets that won't be paid, which might get warrants issued and send more cops out to drag someone out of their home [[if they have one) because they were standing on a street corner.

Not suggesting cops hang around. Where did you hear that? In the bigger picture, you're somewhat accurate to suggest tickets and warrants might not help, but also in the bigger picture you have to do something. This is a downward spiral. The businesses and their customers need help to stay open and operating. That's where the community should be involved.