What is going on at Red Wings arena site?

Thanks, but you are, I think, misinterpreting my posting:

You are missing my point. It isn't about the past but the existential 'here and now', namely, what are the expected proceedings of the historic preservation effort for that building.

What will the outcome of this effort be:

I'm predicting that it is a song and dance where the outcome is all but certain. I'll give my reasons why: All of the heavy hitters, e.g., Ilitches, Council [[more or less), Duggan, etc. are in the same corner.

I can speak about Tiger Stadium. A relic [[and that isn't a compliment), wrong location, etc. No one would build a stadium at Trumbull and Michigan today. [[that said, many of the seats were great, but not those upper deck bleachers in CF, what 440 feet from home plate).

I don't know what to do with a retired athletic stadium, e.g., Tiger stadium, the dome in Pontiac, Cobo Arena, "The Joe", etc. Re-purposing an athletic stadium or arena isn't easy.

I'm actually pretty agnostic on the Park Hotel.

If the two buildings can and should be saved, fine. I have no problem with that.

If it seriously interferes with the 'grand plan' for the arena and it has go, so be it.

The big thing is that the 'master plan' not be compromised too much. I hate development where a land owner won't sell and forces the builder to do a crazy workaround because he had to, at the detriment of the project.

"On this particular website you are going to have people that want preservation of historic buildings above all else, its why they are here. It's why I visit Detroit as much as I do. Without the old buildings and good people, there wouldn't be much appeal for me."

Actually, I like a lot of historic buildings. I'm not anti-historic preservation. I consider each one separately. I'm not a 100% either way. Lot of building are downright ugly and should be torn down. FBI building [[brutalist style) in D.C. will get no tears from me when it is eventually torn down.

I just read the story of St. Patrick's church in Midtown closing as a parish and thought it looked really nice. I really hope that Midtown comes back and the church can be reopened as a parish church.

More than once, when I'm in town, I've gone to Old St. Marys.

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Originally Posted by emu steve

I just read the story of St. Patrick's church in Midtown closing as a parish and thought it looked really nice. I really hope that Midtown comes back and the church can be reopened as a parish church.

More than once, when I'm in town, I've gone to Old St. Marys.

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I like the old StAloysius church downtown too. I like when you have that integration in the streetwall of a variety of architecture which spells "Big City". Detroit needs to preserve all of the Golden Age bldgs not just as a rule but as a "necessity". Everytime a building hits the ground in rubble and dust, the memory of a great city suffers.

By all means, get rid of the parking lots one by one, no tears lost; keep them lacrymal glands useful for something worth it.

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Originally Posted by emu steve

Thanks, but you are, I think, misinterpreting my posting:

You are missing my point. It isn't about the past but the existential 'here and now', namely, what are the expected proceedings of the historic preservation effort for that building.

What will the outcome of this effort be:

I'm predicting that it is a song and dance where the outcome is all but certain. I'll give my reasons why: All of the heavy hitters, e.g., Ilitches, Council [[more or less), Duggan, etc. are in the same corner.

I can speak about Tiger Stadium. A relic [[and that isn't a compliment), wrong location, etc. No one would build a stadium at Trumbull and Michigan today. [[that said, many of the seats were great, but not those upper deck bleachers in CF, what 440 feet from home plate).

I don't know what to do with a retired athletic stadium, e.g., Tiger stadium, the dome in Pontiac, Cobo Arena, "The Joe", etc. Re-purposing an athletic stadium or arena isn't easy.

I'm actually pretty agnostic on the Park Hotel.

If the two buildings can and should be saved, fine. I have no problem with that.

If it seriously interferes with the 'grand plan' for the arena and it has go, so be it.

The big thing is that the 'master plan' not be compromised too much. I hate development where a land owner won't sell and forces the builder to do a crazy workaround because he had to, at the detriment of the project.

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Tiger Stadium was about the interior, not the exterior. If center field had shortcomings then the right field overhang more than made up for that. As a whole, those outfield seats were some of the closest in Modern Day baseball. Did people below have to deal with obstructed views? Too bad back in those days. The center field seats were far, but they were also cheap. These seats gave lower income families a chance to see Mr. Tigers too. Kind of like the skyline seats of today, great view on those too...:rolleyes:

The cast-iron flag pole [[still standing) from Tiger Stadium is more fascinating than anything within the "cookie cutter" walls of Copa. Why couldn't Illitch of renovated Tiger stadium? You know, like Fenway? I understand for many this was out of their realm possibilities, the stadium was "ugly" or the "location" wasn't right.

You didn't see the Red Sox clamoring to tear down Fenway or the Cubs to tear down Wrigley, instead they added the needed money making amenities[[luxury suites/concessions/memorabilia shop) and have retained much of their city/team history in the process. Even Ford incorporated the Hudson warehouse into their design of FF, they saw the value in integrating old and new.

Maybe the allure of new development has soured people on some of the old buildings trying to find their place once again., as emusteve says:

"If it seriously interferes with the 'grand plan' for the arena and it has go, so be it."

I think this view is shared by many unfortunately, that the city and its hopes rest on this arena/mega project. Like Illitch would ever walk away from this sweetheart deal, any public belief that he would plays right into his hands.

Another thing to keep in my mind, hotels are very unique businesses. It's much more intimate than going to a restaurant, or sporting event. You sleep there,possibly eat, maybe swim, and at some point relax for a bit. I'd love to relax in front of my hotel room window watching activity around the stadium, from a birds eye view no less. It's a major factor in changing peoples perception of whats going.

The city has some great bones, when brought back they are shining examples for anyone to see or never know they were gone.

Its really not a blank canvas in Detroit, much of what still remains is valued and plays a role. Minus a return to the demolition at all costs mantra.

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Originally Posted by canuck

I like the old StAloysius church downtown too. I like when you have that integration in the streetwall of a variety of architecture which spells "Big City". Detroit needs to preserve all of the Golden Age bldgs not just as a rule but as a "necessity". Everytime a building hits the ground in rubble and dust, the memory of a great city suffers.

By all means, get rid of the parking lots one by one, no tears lost; keep them lacrymal glands useful for something worth it.

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Parking lots are hard to get rid of because we have to replace something [[a parking lot) with something else [[a building).

That said, we'll know how far Detroit has come back when new building replaces a lot of parking lots.

Now, how many parking lots, even small ones, will be turned into buildings by the Ilitch plan?

1). All of arena site, which is very large,

2). The parking lot adjacent to the church at Woodward/Fisher,

3). The parking lot adjacent to the Fox,

4). Probably a parking lot or two at the Fisher near Clifford/Cass [[new parking garage).

Good start for the area adjacent to the Fisher / Woodward.

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Originally Posted by emu steve

Parking lots are hard to get rid of because we have to replace something [[a parking lot) with something else [[a building).

That said, we'll know how far Detroit has come back when new building replaces a lot of parking lots.

Now, how many parking lots, even small ones, will be turned into buildings by the Ilitch plan?

1). All of arena site, which is very large,

2). The parking lot adjacent to the church at Woodward/Fisher,

3). The parking lot adjacent to the Fox,

4). Probably a parking lot or two at the Fisher near Clifford/Cass [[new parking garage).

Good start for the area adjacent to the Fisher / Woodward.

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It sounds great, it really does. But, how much of this is an illitch "song and dance" and how much is reality? Is this posturing to get his way on other "aspects" involved in construction of the arena? Is there anything that binds him to developing anything beyond the stadium and Eddystone:o?


DetroitPlanner had this to say in the initial stadium announcement thread:


"I can remember the first plans for Comerica Park. It too also included lots of additional stores, restaurants, and housing that was to be built on the land where the Elwood, Wolverine and Gem once stood. They were moved out of the way using taxpayers dollars for new development. Instead you got an expanded parking lot along Woodward.

Prior to that, there was to be a Little Italy built along Columbia with Cafes, Tratorias, and shops.

What I am saying is often times what is sold and what you get are two different things. Private businesses are not accountable, but they sure like to get as many tax dollars as possible. "

http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthr...s-Center/page2

There were many posters expressing skepticism about this "district" promise.

My fingers will be crossed though, no doubt.

With 20 - 20 hindsight OR as they say in tech or innovation [[e.g., electric automobiles, solar power, even the Internet) folks make wild promises TOO SOON.

Things like e-commerce took time. Investors bid up stocks WAY TOO SOON, long before e-commerce became feasible and a money maker.

Probably the same is happening with electric cars [[e.g., Volt, Tesla, etc.) and solar power.

As far as Detroit re-development, with my 20 - 20 hindsight and what I know about dreams getting ahead of reality, I've been stating NOW IS THE TIME. It wasn't five or ten years ago. It is now.

Could anyone say 10 - 15 years ago that demand for downtown/midtown housing exceeded supply?

If the answer is no, then the 'reality' of today doesn't bear any resemblance to the 'reality' back then.

I hope both stay. But I doubt it happens. My suspicion is they offered neither one so that they could compromise on one being saved.

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Originally Posted by emu steve

As far as downtown Detroit re-development, with my 20 - 20 hindsight and what I know about dreams getting ahead of reality, I've been stating NOW MAY BE THE TIME. It wasn't five or ten years ago. It is now.

Could anyone say 10 - 15 years ago that demand for desirable downtown/midtown housing exceeded supply?

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Fixed your post, if we're discussing "reality."

We know for certain the only parts of Detroit that has seen a fair amount of private investment recently are downtown/midtown, and there is plenty of housing still available in downtown/midtown, just not housing that yuppies or middle/high income people would like.

Furthermore, downtown/midtown has frequently seen these spurts of "re-development" since the 1970s while the rest of the city continued its steady downward spiral into oblivion. Unfortunately, every time, something eventually came along to disrupt these "re-development" spurts and we ended up back in square one. There's no guarantee that won't happen again, as the city still has a long way to go until it reaches the tipping point of unabated gentrification and growth in wealth/population. So to say "NOW IS THE TIME" is also a bit pre-mature.

It's funny how parking lots have become a sort of "Unbuild them and they will come" parody of the opposite maxim. Cities once grew incrementally and provided increasingly complex streetscapes that included big and small stores, office buildings, churches with or without landscaping, theatres and the like. Developers had a sense that their contribution was to the greater good which in turn brought personal or corporate profit. Then the car culture that happened quickly found a way to evacuate and disparage and uncelebrate the "old stuff".

A massive public park suddenly had to give access to cars and the main event would welcome the apparition of cars speeding, spitting noxious fumes and noise to the happy humans and wildlife in their midst. We are there, it doesn't mean we will always be this way. I think we can reinject some humanity and rid ourselves of the foolish expressiveness of the machine age.

When I think of Parkade type parking lots, I usually see a single architectural detail repeated over a city block. Louvers or small openings with cars parked and a little roar. There is an urban resemblance to the large henhouses that don't need to be beautiful and are almost meant to be forgotten for the cruelty they evoke; their raison d'être.

BTW, if someone wants [[I'm not sure why) my idea for a mini-master plan for the area near the arena with historical significance, I would:

1). Build a soccer stadium at Cass between Temple and Ledyard,

2). Try to move heaven and earth to get the hotel next to the Masonic Temple rehabbed. That building has great significance sitting next to the Masonic. To non-historic preservationists, the two buildings the subject of this thread have no 'strategic importance.' At best, they are an inconvenience for the arena project; at worse they are in the way and architecturally doesn't fit the new arena project [[IMO).

Cass Park has significance to the Masonic Temple. The Cass/Temple/Ledyard block has significance to the Masonic Temple. Both because of their frontage on Temple.

Maybe think about trying to 'save' the Masonic Temple by saving that hotel, the park and the adjacent block.

I know folks would like to save all buildings with historic significance, but I really think there needs to be 'strategic priorities'.

Not all buildings with historic significance are 'created equal.' Their location, in my view, enhances or mitigates their importance.

3). This could 'pave the way' for more development between Cass and Woodward near Temple and may foster more development west of Cass.

"Your thoughts?"

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Originally Posted by emu steve

the two buildings the subject of this thread have no 'strategic importance.' At best, they are an inconvenience for the arena project; at worse they are in the way and architecturally doesn't fit the new arena project [[IMO).

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Seems that you are loving the role of Devil's advocate Steve.:cool:


Anyways, you are going to have to look beyond the arena development and view this area as a whole, not a district. Then ask yourself, "What matches what?".. As in, there are many more older buildings large and small that sit everywhere around this new "district" that are much closer to the Park and Eddystone architecture than some new arena.

I have a feeling I'm going to be asking the same question you are, except I will be asking this after the praised ancillary developments decide against using bricks and quality materials and build a "suburban development" that looks/feels disjointed in an urban area.

The reason I want these hotels saved is because when its all said and done, they will be the only elegant piece of this Illitch puzzle. The stadium and its offices will be torn down in 40 yrs,that's what new arenas do, get demolished eventually. They aren't rebuilding the "Barn", just another cutting edge[[for now) arena that will be dated and look ugly in 40 years. There wont be the debate over tearing it down like there is with these 2 gems.

BTW Emu, the Eddystone is a done deal, no sense in discussing the demolition of the Eddystone. So if your argument is that they don't fit in with the new faux glitzy shit, too bad because the Eddystone is going to be there to ruin your "aesthetics"I guess.


Heres the deal, Illitch is in negotiations[[or already negotiated) with a developer that wants to build a hotel fronting Woodward. It's shown in the original renderings and mentioned in the outline for the area. The same thing with residential. He wants everything built new, like back home in Oakland Co. Exclusive rights to do what he wants.

It will be politics as usual if The Park Ave gets knocked down. I like how they minimized these two old gems in the renderings. They are simply silhouettes, no windows and lights or detail. it speaks volumes about Illitch and his regard for the city's architectural fabric.

At the end of the day The Eddystone more than likely gets redone, a major victory in itself..


Here's the renderings again:

http://detroit.curbed.com/archives/2...a-district.php

It's been clear since 2009, Illitch bought these to demolish. He wanted demolition by neglect, but the buildings will not cave! Them my boys!

Actually, I've moved on to what will happen around the Masonic Temple and Cass Park as dirt has been moved for what 6 weeks [[?) now for the arena complex...

Lest I be wrong, the Masonic Temple was [[is) in dire financial straits and the only thing which can save it is significant redevelopment of the blocks adjacent to it.

Since no one is going to buy up the Cass/Temple/Ledyard block tomorrow and build hundreds of apartments or office building[[s) -- a soccer stadium + cleaning up Cass Park is the best 'shot in the arm' to bring life to that area.

I hope 'market forces' will move along Temple from Woodward to Cass...

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Originally Posted by emu steve

Actually, I've moved on to what will happen around the Masonic Temple and Cass Park as dirt has been moved for what 6 weeks [[?) now for the arena complex...

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So your line in the last post was a parting shot at the Eddystone/Park Hotels as you move onto another area?

Yes they have been moving dirt around, but that isn't where the suspense lies..I am going to be watching this development closely. Is it a catalyst for Midtown/Detroit growth or an Illitch pocketbook expansion?

Focus on the here and now[[arena "district"), because as we've seen in the past, today's actions play a huge role in shaping the future. Just look at the area around COPA, theres a reason its always brought up.

Many people refuse to be lolled to sleep again by Olympia and their promises for "down the road" ancillary developments...Its been 15 years and the Copa area largely looks the same. His properties in GC Park look much worse and are still handcuffing a true revival. I'm sure he has "plans" for those as well...

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Originally Posted by Dbest

Many people refuse to be lolled to sleep again by Olympia and their promises for "down the road" ancillary developments...Its been 15 years and the Copa area largely looks the same. His properties in GC Park look much worse and are still handcuffing a true revival. I'm sure he has "plans" for those as well...

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Well, those folks may be many, but they don't have any influence over this development. If past is prologue... we can expect nothing more will happen other than what is absolutely necessary to get hockey up and running. every single ancillary development is going to be subject to a profitability study for Olympia and will only get built if its a certainty they wont lose money. I'd expect less than 1/3 of what's proposed gets built and that 1/3 will be mostly parking deck.

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Originally Posted by bailey

Well, those folks may be many, but they don't have any influence over this development. If past is prologue... we can expect nothing more will happen other than what is absolutely necessary to get hockey up and running. every single ancillary development is going to be subject to a profitability study for Olympia and will only get built if its a certainty they wont lose money. I'd expect less than 1/3 of what's proposed gets built and that 1/3 will be mostly parking deck.

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You're right, although I would contend that awareness regarding his past actions have led to an agreement to save the Eddystone. In the past he wasn't as scrutinized, we would talking about the Eddystone and The Park Ave in past tense already. I am highly skeptical too Bailey.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/bus...rena/28288987/

There are many, many lessons to learn about sports facilities and the threat to attendance including HD television.

Here is an article on the Washington Redskins' stadium, FedEx.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports...f5c_story.html

"Fans in recent years have complained of a poor experience at the Landover stadium, marked by snarled parking, rowdy fan behavior, long lines, frequent advertisements and large numbers of interlopers from visiting teams. At the same time, the home viewing experience for fans of all 32 NFL franchises has dramatically improved, thanks to large high-definition TVs and the NFL’s own RedZone network, which shows every scoring play."

I can attest:

The time I went to watch the Lions play the 'Skins: I had a very long walk from the subway, our seats were lower deck but under an overhang, considered obstructed [[like looking through a cardboard cutout window), couldn't see the replays, etc.

The traffic jams on the Capital Beltway for 'Skins games are legendary. Most fans do not live near the stadium and the exits, local roads, etc. are not good.

Compare that to Ford Field: Great location, great seats, etc.

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Originally Posted by xrockerboy

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/bus...rena/28288987/

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I saw that. Three points:

1). Timing, timing, timing [[kind of like location, location, location). The arena needs to be mostly finished before work will begin on buildings in adjacent blocks [[e.g., a hotel at Henry/Woodward, maybe an office at Sproat or Temple/Woodward, etc.). I suspect the Eddystone will not be completed until within 2017. Watch I learned from watching Nationals Park go up, is that developers staked out their positions [[i.e., bought land and came up with plans) but waited until the stadium was almost complete. No sense being early.

Work near Comerica. The two buildings + a parking garage can begin in 2015 or 16.

2). Those 45 blocks delineates an area for special tax treatments, etc. I don't take that to mean that the area will be completely redeveloped in 5, 10, or even 20 years. Does every vacant structure placed on historical preservation list get redeveloped? No. I don't see a lot of silver bullets here. It lays the ground work. Market forces still need to work.

3). Mike Ilitches' name [[and money) is all over this project, but I'd think it will be Chris Ilitches' legacy to Detroit. The project in the next decade or two will be on Chris' watch... He is the key individual and that is the timeline to evaluate the success [[or failure) of the project... Folks should think 5, 10 and 20 year timelines... Detroit, even lower Midtown, will not be rebuilt in two years. It would be intellectually dishonest to propagate false expectations and declare failure when they don't happen.

I understand what you are saying emu steve.... but for God's sake it's been 17 years since Comerica Park opened.... and with Ilitch owning almost ALL the land around it.... NOTHING has happened. Meanwhile Chuck Forbes has taken the $14 million he got for the properties that were taken from him via Eminent Domain.... and he has fixed up the Colony Club, spruced up the Francis Palms Building, rejuvenated the Gem/Century Theatres, fixed up the Elwood Bar... etc.

Can you name even ONE thing that the Ilitch's have done since completing Comerica Park... besides demolition and parking? Only thing that comes to mind is they finally mothballed the UA [[after they let it rot)... while the Madison-Lenox, Adams Theatre, Vermont Hotel, Chin Tiki and a restored 3 story building along Grand River have all been razed.... and the Fine Arts Building facade is still held up with steel framework.

Comerica Park is much closer to the bustle of activity than the new Arena will be... since we've not seen any activity near Comerica Park that is Ilitch related.... how can we ever expect to see it farther out at the arena?

Until the vast parking wasteland around the Fox/Comerica Park starts getting attention, the Fine Arts Building reconstruct, the United Artists complex, as well as the Life Building and Blenheim Apartments,how is skipping over that area to fix up the area around the arena ever going to happen? The answer... IT'S NOT. :[[

I'm going to toss EVERYONE a CURVE ball [[but some might be able to discern what is coming):

The past probably reflects Mike Ilitch's reluctance, judgment, etc. toward development and redevelopment.

Most everything done on this huge project will probably have Chris Ilitch's DNA on it. I assume Chris is much more savvy and interested in these matters [[I assume the father was more into pizza and sports).

IF I'm reading this right, we just might have very different outcomes based on the knowledge, skills and interests of the two Ilitches...

Check back with me say in 30 months. Okay?

Is my characterization of Chris correct??????

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Originally Posted by emu steve

I'm going to toss EVERYONE a CURVE ball [[but some might be able to discern what is coming):

The past probably reflects Mike Ilitch's reluctance, judgment, etc. toward development and redevelopment.

Most everything done on this huge project will probably have Chris Ilitch's DNA on it. I assume Chris is much more savvy and interested in these matters [[I assume the father was more into pizza and sports).

IF I'm reading this right, we just might have very different outcomes based on the knowledge, skills and interests of the two Ilitches...

Check back with me say in 30 months. Okay?

Is my characterization of Chris correct??????

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No. He is dad part 2 if not worse.

As Moroun stated in the article "The Morouns in Detroit - the way the Morouns see it" - " I have no good answer......and I'm not going to make something up" - lol

June 10 is the next key date:

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...june/28367847/

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Originally Posted by Gistok

I understand what you are saying emu steve.... but for God's sake it's been 17 years since Comerica Park opened.... and with Ilitch owning almost ALL the land around it.... NOTHING has happened. Meanwhile Chuck Forbes has taken the $14 million he got for the properties that were taken from him via Eminent Domain.... and he has fixed up the Colony Club, spruced up the Francis Palms Building, rejuvenated the Gem/Century Theatres, fixed up the Elwood Bar... etc.

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I understand what you are saying, Gistok. But really? Chuck Forbes? Most of these things were done even before Comerica opened. But then again, old Mike and Chuck have had a lot of company in the aint done shit club in the decade between 2002 and 2012. How about that high rise apartment that the Methodist Church was going to build there? Or that sweet four story Post Bar?

Let's hope that things really are different this time. Quite simply, if the downtown momentum continues and the $ is there, these things will happen. If not, it won't. Smiley face.