121,000+ businesses in Michigan "borrowed" under PPP

In times of chaos government money gets flung all over the place with little to no oversight. So it is with the PPP [Paycheck Protection Program] where small companies [121K+ in Michigan] are "loaned" up to $10 million dollars.

I have put "loaned" in quotes because if the companies meet criteria those loans become grants. To check on companies you know I have attached a spreadsheet showing Michigan companies that have received $150K+ of "loans" at the bottom of this post.

The idea is that if the companies keep their employees working they get to pocket the "loan". And what if their business was just fine and they would have kept their employees anyway? There seems to be no check on that=free money. Even if they are don't keep their employees working they still get an overly generous uncollateralized loans at 1% with up to 5 years maturity.

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The loan will be fully forgiven if the funds are used for payroll costs, interest on mortgages, rent, and utilities [[due to likely high subscription, at least 60% of the forgiven amount must have been used for payroll).

• PPP loans have an interest rate of 1%.
• Loans issued prior to June 5 have a maturity of 2 years. Loans issued after June 5 have a maturity of 5 years.
• Loan payments will be deferred for six months.
• No collateral or personal guarantees are required.
• Neither the government nor lenders will charge small businesses any fees.
• https://www.sba.gov/funding-programs...ection-program

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Hot on the heels of my above post comes this. Muddying the separation of church and state is the receipt of PPP by religious institutions. Okay they do hire people who pay taxes but...

Not sure how I feel on this, other than hoping some oversight occurs on all "loans". Thoughts?

https://freep-mi.newsmemory.com?publ...cd645b_134372b

I think the number for the Catholic Church country wide is 7 billion,but they also run the refugee resettlement program,which they also receive funds.

I think any religious organization that has food banks,helps the poor and elderly or other community programs that directly effect people regardless of religious beliefs should be okay recovering funds,if it is a breach of separation of the church and state for humanity reasons,it’s a bit more palatable?

I see the governors are pushing lots of reimbursements for pretty much everything,personally I do not have a problem with Michigan getting everything they can pork wise to help because they have missed out on billions of disaster funds that many other states have received in the past and greatly benefited from.

Many cites would be in the same shape as Detroit is had they not received the disaster funds in the past in order to rebuild.

In this case I would say go for it,get every penny you can because of it helps the communities and residents then it is worth it,outside of the floods it’s not you guys fault that you do not get racked by hurricanes and tornadoes.

The city of Detroit alone could jump 10 years into the future really fast,this kind of money becomes more of an investment that has a return back to the taxpayers,verses just disappearing down a big hole somewhere.

Reading recently about the strip club that got a big loan, I have a feeling churches may be well down the list of those who perhaps shouldn't have received it.

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Originally Posted by 401don

Reading recently about the strip club that got a big loan, I have a feeling churches may be well down the list of those who perhaps shouldn't have received it.

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#stripperlivesmatter

Strip club is no different,the girls work and make a living,it’s just a job.

Maybe be different elsewhere but here the girls pay the house in order to dance,you make your money on selling the booze.

So it is just a bar with entertainment and other bars received funds.

But not many because if you bank with a big bank then the odds are slim,most the business owners that I know anyways that
got it had a good relationship with the bank,the bank fronted the money up front and received it back from the gov.

The key is to bank with a credit union or small local bank.

[QUOTE=Richard;596284]
Strip club is no different,the girls work and make a living,it’s just a job.
/QUOTE]

Yes but the industry also has more than its fair share of drug dealing and other illegal activity.

Beyond COVID-19, there'll many stories and writings on the largess of the PPP scam as both sides [[left and right) took thirsty turns wetting their beaks for their um, eh' employees --:rolleyes:--!

[QUOTE=401don;596286]

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Originally Posted by Richard

Strip club is no different,the girls work and make a living,it’s just a job.
/QUOTE]

Yes but the industry also has more than its fair share of drug dealing and other illegal activity.

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Yes but so do corner pot stores and pharmaceutical companies.

What is the difference between the street corner dealer and a pharmacy? They both get people addicted beyond control.

Its a stimulus package,by design they are pumping billions into the economy in order to create a cash flow,it does not really matter what vessel or conduit is used at least with businesses they are not going to sit at home and wait until the money runs out then think about tomorrow after it runs out.

There are a lot of people that are going to need those agencies when the cheese runs out soon and they were sitting at home ordering Amazon instead of paying the rent.

That is going to be the next bubble when people start to re-enter the workforce and they find they have been replaced or the extended lockdowns in some states pushed businesses past the breaking point.

Then what?

There are millions that have not paid rent,utilities and mortgages for the last 90 days,that bill will come due.

The ones that took advantage of no evictions are going to find it cheaper to just bail on their current landlord and get a different place,possibly at an increased rent.

There is going to be a backlash and the churches are the first place of immediate relief or help.

The ambulance chaser lawyers are already advertising,are you a victim of an upcoming eviction related to the corona virus,contact us.

The bank we have our commercial account with shut 90% of their branches,we have 2 branches out of over 100 that are open 1 hour per day,no way we can do business like that,their answer to that was to accept credit or bank cards only,no cash,no ability to bank cash and everybody is supposed to switch over to direct deposit.

We do business in the inner city,not everybody has direct deposit or credit cards or bank cards.

Politics aside there is a lot more going on then the virus and people are using the virus as an excuse to change they way we do business but the main thing is the banks are controlling the economy and they seem to be switching to a cashless system.

Like I posted that bank has over 200,000 employees nationwide that they have now deemed non essential for operations,that completely wipes out all tellers,bank management,retail space,the people that cut the grass,the people that clean and service the building,the insurance company that insures the building,the city and state taxes etc etc.

There are so many empty banks now that are just sitting there rotting away,the only use for them now is as a pot shop because they have drive through and a really big vault in order to store the cash that nobody can spend in.

Thats why people have deemed the virus as second place and have gone back to work. They got bills to pay.

I believe that is why the feds are pumping up the safety social services network,because the states will not be able to handle the influx of needy people that are headed their way.

Thats how Roosevelt did it,through food banks,Red Cross etc. never directly to the individual.

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Originally Posted by Zacha341

Beyond COVID-19, there'll many stories and writings on the largess of the PPP scam as both sides [[left and right) took thirsty turns wetting their beaks for their um, eh' employees --:rolleyes:--!

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The money didn't seem to be for paying employees.

The way it was worded, it was there so that the company stayed in business. They just used 2.5 months of payroll as a quick way of deciding how much to loan / grant to give each company. [[The amount of it that might later become a grant would be based on how big your payroll was after the loan was granted, v.s. how big it was before.

Basically, give the companies money so that they stay in business,.. so that when the pandemic is over,.. there are jobs to come back to. And hopefully, many DON'T even get laid off in the first place, making up some of the PPP program's costs in saved unemployment benefits.


I qualified for about $60k worth, but didn't take it, as I wasn't wiling or able to swear that the loan was necessary to my staying in business. I would have been able to scrape by,.. even if business dropped by 90%,.. as I plan and save for such an event.


Here's some of the PPP wording;

“.....current economic uncertainty makes this loan request necessary to support the ongoing operations of the Applicant.”

To me, the real question is how did Michigan did [[per capita) compared to other states? Hopefully we got more than our fair share.

After years of the federal government hosing Michigan compared to other states, I have no moral objection to Michigan raking in as much money as they can. So while the philosophical argument of whether the program is justifiable or not is interesting, to me I am far more concerned on how Michigan stacked up compared to others in getting the grants/loans.

Bigdd- a lot of it was to keep people on the payroll while they stayed home,they cannot collect unemployment unless you fire them or laid them off.

If you used it for that reason it turns into a grant verses a low interest loan.

I thought about collecting it and using that money as a funding source in order to open up more locations,little to no interest and zero repercussions when it converts to a loan after the 90 days.

Its actually a cheap way of borrowing money for expansion,they also offer us zero interest to borrow up to 60% of our average yearly card sales.

It is easy for them to oversee because your employees are registered with the state and they cross check to see if they are collecting unemployment along with a salary,some tried it and got busted real quick.

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Originally Posted by Atticus

To me, the real question is how did Michigan did [[per capita) compared to other states? Hopefully we got more than our fair share.

After years of the federal government hosing Michigan compared to other states, I have no moral objection to Michigan raking in as much money as they can. So while the philosophical argument of whether the program is justifiable or not is interesting, to me I am far more concerned on how Michigan stacked up compared to others in getting the grants/loans.

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There are two different streams of funds,one for the businesses and the second comes from the disaster declaration.

Normally under the disaster declaration everything that was effected by the virus would be covered,for instance,public transit shuts down or reduced service then they would show a loss directly related and be reimbursed.


Here is a breakdown from the first round of disaster related funding.

https://www.cbpp.org/research/how-mu...-the-cares-act

The chart say in millions but should read billions.

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Originally Posted by Richard

Bigdd- a lot of it was to keep people on the payroll while they stayed home,they cannot collect unemployment unless you fire them or laid them off.

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Right,.. that's what I mentioned in my middle paragraph,.... BUT, while you don't have to swear that you aren't going to lay off employees,.... you DO have to swear that "it's necessary" to you staying in business.

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Originally Posted by Richard

I thought about collecting it and using that money as a funding source in order to open up more locations,.........

Its actually a cheap way of borrowing money for expansion,..........

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Yep, a lot of people did that. But obviously that's not the intent of the program.

AND,.. the penalty for falsely swearing [[signing) the application [[that it was necessary to sty in business,.. when in reality it was a less-expensive way to expand) would have been a felony.

The fine print at the bottom of the app states that there are 3 laws one could be punished under. The most severe of which carried penalties of up to a $500,000.00 fine and up to 30 years in prison.

And infinitely more importantly than that... the Lord knows.

So it's a good thing neither of us went through with it.