2012: Detroit May Have More Murders than NYC

This morning, I read this article, which notes that New York City's murder rate is down 23% this year, with 366 as of the time of the article. The final number of homicides is expected to come in at just over 400.

As of November 25, Detroit has had 354 homicides. At this rate, Detroit will also approach 400 homicides, leaving a possibility NYC, with more than 11 times the number of people, could have fewer homicides than Detroit for the year.

By posting this article, I do not mean to imply that Detroit can have the same murder rate as New York City. New York City is much wealthier and does not face the same pervasive problems that Detroit faces. That said, New York City had over 2,200 murders in 1990. At the time, many thought the city's problems were intractable, and many called the city ungovernable. But change was possible, and improvements were made, now leaving NYC as the safest big city in the country.

There here is no reason that Detroit could not have a dramatic crime reduction with better leadership and deployment of its resources. Each homicide is a tragedy, and it is absolutely shameful that the city has not been able to approach the crime problem more effectively.

How could this be? New York businesses are allowed to have security shutters!

Hearing about murder everyday does chip away at your spirit more and more.

I hope the next chief of police is someone involved in homicide or the like from a place like NYC or Philladelphia or DC that has seen dramatic drops in murders.

A young up and comer, with enthusiasm and ideas, and open to new ways of operating.

Though Warren Evans is long gone, didn't he actually have homicides down significantly while he was here? He talked about using statistics and predictive analysis to put police in potential hotspots at the right time of year, temperature. I wonder if, and why his ideas weren't continued.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cman710

There here is no reason that Detroit could not have a dramatic crime reduction with better leadership and deployment of its resources. Each homicide is a tragedy, and it is absolutely shameful that the city has not been able to approach the crime problem more effectively.

---

I don't mean to be a naysayer, because I want nothing more than Detroit to become great again. But NYC has resources far beyond anything Detroit could ever dream of. It's the financial capital of the world [[London might argue, but whatever) there was a ton of money behind the policies that began to fix the problems. Also, NYC has so much tourism money it's coming out of their ears, something Detroit will never be able to come close to.

That doesn't mean Detroit can't be fixed, but we can't use NYC as a model. I said it in another thread, I'd like to see us use Pittsburgh as a model. They were another one industry town [[Steel) and they have managed to completely revamp that city in 25 years.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JVB

I don't mean to be a naysayer, because I want nothing more than Detroit to become great again. But NYC has resources far beyond anything Detroit could ever dream of. It's the financial capital of the world [[London might argue, but whatever) there was a ton of money behind the policies that began to fix the problems. Also, NYC has so much tourism money it's coming out of their ears, something Detroit will never be able to come close to.

That doesn't mean Detroit can't be fixed, but we can't use NYC as a model. I said it in another thread, I'd like to see us use Pittsburgh as a model. They were another one industry town [[Steel) and they have managed to completely revamp that city in 25 years.

---

Detroit's problems are probably equally in line with both NYC and Pittsburgh, if not slightly tilting to NYC. Pittsburgh's stumble was due almost singularly to the complete collapse of the steel industry, which was its only real source of jobs. Detroit's issue has been a mix of disinvestment, which is what was happening to New York, and industry collapse/retrenchment.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Detroit's issue has been a mix of disinvestment, which is what was happening to New York

---

Was there ever disinvestment in New York? I'm not an expert to say the least, but Wall Street has always been a driving force there correct?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JVB

Was there ever disinvestment in New York? I'm not an expert to say the least, but Wall Street has always been a driving force there correct?

---

Times Square, the Bronx, Brooklyn, and Queens were all a total complete mess. Times Square was nothing but blowing trash and adult entertainment. The subways were covered in filth and riddled with crime.

Wallstreet in NYC was the equivelant of Campus Martius/Financial District in Detroit today. It flourished while the rest of the city took a trip down the rabbit hole.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jpbollma

Times Square, the Bronx, Brooklyn, and Queens were all a total complete mess. Times Square was nothing but blowing trash and adult entertainment. The subways were covered in filth and riddled with crime.

Wallstreet in NYC was the equivelant of Campus Martius/Financial District in Detroit today. It flourished while the rest of the city took a trip down the rabbit hole.

---

No I get that, but was it disinvestment, or was there just never a need for investment to begin with until things got bad? What I mean is, was there a certain level of investment up to some point, and then the money pulled out?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JVB

No I get that, but was it disinvestment, or was there just never a need for investment to begin with until things got bad? What I mean is, was there a certain level of investment up to some point, and then the money pulled out?

---

Landlords were burning their own buildings for the insurance money if they could get it. Or simply walking away.

Irrespective of the differences between NYC and Detroit, the fact is that homicide rates dropped substantially in most large cities over the past 25 years. It looks as if Detroit will have twice as many homicides as LA this year. The fact that the rate has not really dropped much in Detroit is partially a result of people who didn't commit murders leaving, but [[in my view) also a result of an ineffective criminal justice system, including an incompetent police department.

The city administration doesn't control the courts or probation system, but it does control the police department and the fact that this hasn't been fixed over all this time is almost unbelievable. Except of course, that in Detroit the unbelievable is routine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by winstonst

Landlords were burning their own buildings for the insurance money if they could get it. Or simply walking away.

---

Gotcha - yeah that sounds familiar. Still, no Wall Street and limited tourism means we'll have to find a different way.

"The city administration doesn't control the courts or probation system, but it does control the police department and the fact that this hasn't been fixed over all this time is almost unbelievable. Except of course, that in Detroit the unbelievable is routine."

What! They're putting in a $60 million police station!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JVB

Gotcha - yeah that sounds familiar. Still, no Wall Street and limited tourism means we'll have to find a different way.

---

I would say beyond the auto industry and the new tech industries moving into the city, we should expand on our cultural center. More theatres, more exhibits ect. Make an arts district where goods are sold on the streets with outdoor exhibits. An arty Eastern Market.

Totally revamp farming laws and allow massive amounts of urban farming.

open the city up and make it as immigrant friendly as humanly possible.

try and set up more programs to pair students and underskilled adults with local companies to learn a trade.

I know these won't fix the city by themselves and I probably lack the vision to rebrand the city. I just hope we avoid putting all of our eggs in one basket again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jpbollma

Times Square, the Bronx, Brooklyn, and Queens were all a total complete mess. Times Square was nothing but blowing trash and adult entertainment. The subways were covered in filth and riddled with crime.

Wallstreet in NYC was the equivelant of Campus Martius/Financial District in Detroit today. It flourished while the rest of the city took a trip down the rabbit hole.

---

I would add to this that finance was not the dominant industry in NYC until the late 1980s or perhaps even later. Before that it was the garment industry, and I believe media was a in close proximity to finance for the secondary industries. NYC's economy took a big hit by the decline/off-shoring of the garment industry, just like Detroit took a hit from the outside forces affecting the domestic auto industry. Granted, NYC was positioned to benefit from a ballooning financial industry in ways that Detroit wasn't.

Also, Urban tourism in New York also wasn't nearly the cash cow that it is today, but Detroit's inability to compete there is self-inflicted more than anything else...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by winstonst

Landlords were burning their own buildings for the insurance money if they could get it. Or simply walking away.

---

There was substantial disinvestment. Michael Bloomberg has publicly credited the reversal of that with saving New York.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jpbollma

Totally revamp farming laws and allow massive amounts of urban farming.

---

I love that idea, but the powers that be seem dead set against it..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jpbollma

open the city up and make it as immigrant friendly as humanly possible.

---

Love that idea too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jpbollma

try and set up more programs to pair students and underskilled adults with local companies to learn a trade.

---

Love that idea too. Trade schools are looked down upon for some reason, but with a failed school system I don't know any better time than now to get young people proper training in a trade that will pay the bills and give them a way to feed themselves and their family. I wish like hell I would've went to trade school when I was younger it probably would have saved me years of frustration and dollar menu meals.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Also, Urban tourism in New York also wasn't nearly the cash cow that it is today, but Detroit's inability to compete there is self-inflicted more than anything else...

---

I certainly agree with this point. While NYC also had a significant number of tourists, the city did not have the number of visitors it has today. NYC was viewed as a dangerous place that many did not want to visit [[a perception reinforced by movies of the time), and many of the "nice" areas that tourists flock to today, like Times Square, Bryant Park, Central Park, and Washington Square Park, were not the choice spots they are today. Places like Williamsburg and Bedford-Stuvesant in Brooklyn were also places that no one would want to live.

The transit system also was in incredibly poor shape, if still effective. For one example, see this video from 1986 of the NYC subway system. Note the graffiti all over the inside as well as the outside of the cards. This was the impression of the subway when I was a kid. Here is another take, from a still photographer.

Things were so bad that in 1993, residents on Staten Island, where I grew up, voted to secede from the city. The state legislature never acted on the idea and the city soon rebounded, making the issue recede from public consciousness.

And for anyone who does thinks that parts of NYC never resembled today's Detroit, see the devastation visible in this video of the South Bronx of the 1970s and 1980s.

[QUOTE=jpbollma;352695]I would say beyond the auto industry and the new tech industries moving into the city, we should expand on our cultural center. More theatres, more exhibits ect. Make an arts district where goods are sold on the streets with outdoor exhibits. An arty Eastern Market.


I think that Grand Circus Park would be a fantastic place to have weekly art fairs/exhibits in the spring/summer/fall. I live near the park and I have been offered drugs there. You also often times get the wonderful smell of weed throughout the park. I think with the flowers and trees in bloom, along with the fountains, this would be a beautiful relaxing place to stroll and admire/purchase arts and crafts. I feel this park is underutilized.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cman710

And for anyone who does thinks that parts of NYC never resembled today's Detroit, see the devastation visible in this video of the South Bronx of the 1970s and 1980s.

---

As bad as NYC was, South Bronx [[namely the Charlotte street area) was about the only part of town that experienced the devastation Detroit has experienced.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 313WX

As bad as NYC was, South Bronx [[namely the Charlotte street area) was about the only part of town that experienced the devastation Detroit has experienced.

---

I also don't agree that NYC was ever as bad as Detroit.

NYC, at its absolute worst, lost about 10% of its population. That alone tells you that conditions were different.

Yes, there was significant decline, and a few neighborhoods, like the South Bronx, and parts of East Brooklyn, were horrific, but the city, as a whole, was mostly prosperous, even in the worst years.

In the worst years of the 70's, most of the Outer Boroughs were stable working and middle class [[90% of Queens, 100% of Staten Island, maybe 70% of Brooklyn and 60% of the Bronx were stable and just fine).

In contrast, probably 95% of Detroit is presently less than "stable" and "fine".

And Manhattan, while parts were disgusting back in the 70's, was still the center of the world. There was great wealth in Manhattan, and it probably had the greatest concentration of wealth anywhere back then, even if the city was rotting.

The city started slowly improving during the 80's, but it didn't really pick up until the mid-90's or so. Since 2000, however, the ascent has been stunning.

NYC seems to be entering a new "golden age", and probably isn't a good model for any other city anywhere in the U.S. [[or in the world, for that matter).

There was substantial white flight from New York in the 60's and 70's. Block busting was used in many of the blue collar areas in the Bronx, Brooklyn and Queens. The housing stock decayed, but remained valuable as rental properties for downmarket tenants. The Bronx had the worst experience with burnings and abandonment.