City can't process payroll?!?!

OK, seriously, WTF. It's one thing when you lack the money to make payroll because you're insolvent. It's totally another when you HAVE the money but your SYSTEMS are all f'd up.

http://detnews.com/article/20111003/...ll-is-too-slow

This is ridiculous. If this were the private sector, there's not way this would all be a problem. Even within the public sector, this is absurd. I can't imagine that the City of Detroit has more employees/vendors/contractors/unions than the University of Michigan and this would never fly there. And between the U-M Health System, the Graduate Employees Organization, and their thousands and thousands of retirees, full-time employees, and seasonal employees, their operation is gargantuan.

How the hell is this a problem at City Hall?? Are the systems that old? Are the people all that incompetent? What is going on?

Remember, the city cannot get out a fiscal audit on the regular either..... what joy!

When was this system implemented? I tend to remember that this has been a problem for a few years now. Seems like the city keeps purchasing sh%tty software, for some reason. Anyone know the specific software? It'd be interesting to hear when it was purchased and what surrounded the choice.

Bing specifically tried to privatize this department back in 2009; I wonder if it would have mattered, now, given that the software seems to be the biggest problem.

So we can blame the software, but how many people reviewed this software before it was purchased? Where was the oversight? This was a global decision that could have easily been caught.
Furthermore, how many people work in the payroll department? What exactly are they doing, besides sending out incorrect paychecks? If they have crappy software, it is their responsibility to work around it. It would be irresponsible for ANY workplace to be so dependent on any software, even the top of the line versions, to just blindly send out checks that are incorrect.
And for all the blaming of the unions, this is strictly a white collar problem. Some cuts should come to the payroll department. They're not doing their jobs.

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Originally Posted by DetroitPole

...And for all the blaming of the unions, this is strictly a white collar problem. Some cuts should come to the payroll department. They're not doing their jobs.

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Perhaps this is from cuts to the payroll department. Clearly they should outsource things outside of their 'core competence'.

And btw, I would guess that the 'white collar' employees you disdain are likely union members. Drop that stereotype. Workers are not just factory rats anymore.

Payroll snafus and other multi-million dollar IT screwups have been a recurring theme with the CoD and DPS for several decades. Maybe they don't care because its a government job, with low standards of performance. Maybe they select a politically connected vendor. Maybe the system is OK but the folks running it are dumber than a box of rocks. What ever the case, given their track record they really ought to outsource it. Its clearly not the CoD's core competency. Its more like their core incompetency.

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Originally Posted by Det_ard

Payroll snafus and other multi-million dollar IT screwups have been a recurring theme...really ought to outsource it. Its clearly not the CoD's core competency. Its more like their core incompetency.

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I worked in payroll processing. Its a very difficult task. Dozens of different local and state taxes. They are ever-changing. And then there's the work rules. Work 6 hrs, and get paid for 7, lunch automatically deducted, except on Wednesdays when its your birthday. Standby pay, vacation, medical leaves, benefit accrual [[34 min. for each hour worked between 9 and 4, but 46 min. for each hour... well you get the idea.)

There's a reason for the existence and success of ADP. They can do paychecks for under $1.00 ea. last I heard. Although I'm sure Detroit'll find a way to pay much more if they outsource.

I've done my own payroll so I know what you mean, but taken in perspective, 99.99999% of the companies out there can handle it, either internally or via outsourcing. What's the CoD's unique problem?

What do you want to bet that every one of the Clownsil members gets their pay on time and with correct amounts, along with all of their crooniies who work for them.

As a City retiree, I can say that in 19 years of retirement not one of my checks has been late or incorrect. Whatever the retirement system is doing, the others need to take note of how efficient that department is.

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Originally Posted by Det_ard

I've done my own payroll so I know what you mean, but taken in perspective, 99.99999% of the companies out there can handle it, either internally or via outsourcing. What's the CoD's unique problem?

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CoD's unique problem is pretty much the same theme as all of its other problems. Its systems were designed for a different time and place, and its employees are probably not necessarily quick to transition after 30 years of "doing it the old way".

For example, it was once reported [[sorry, can't cite it or find a link) that the City of Detroit had over 100 different checking accounts, each assigned to different departments, committees, projects, etc. Well when you have that many chefs in the kitchen, there are bound to be errors.

Every big organization is going to have losses due to errors in accounting. The goal is to minimize those errors to the bare minimum by making sure that the systems themselves are streamlined. For example, if completing a mundane tasks requires 3 people to coordinate 5 consecutive steps in a series....the likelihood of error is many times greater than if it can be conslidated down to 1 person doing 3 steps in series. Payroll is complicated because of all the different moving parts. I think outsourcing it to ADP, Paychex, or some other 3rd party is really gonna have to happen at this point., IMHO.

I've seen a few real life examples where this has been relevant.

First, in my undergraduate fraternity, we used to have the undergraduate treasurer be in charge of bookkeeping, collecting all dues, and keeping the budgets. The last year in the fraternity, we somehow ran a -$2,000 cashlow one semester and collected less than 60% of our dues. After 3 years of controversial debate, the chapter finally agreed to pay a 3rd party a 3% commission to run the books. People bitched about the 3% [[leaving only 97% to spend), but in the final analysis, we've been at 99% dues collection ever since.

97% of 99 is a lot more than 100% of 60.

Second, one of my buddies owns a title company and he explains to me why he's reluctant to invest in property development in the city. He tells me [[and this might be dated, because he hasn't done it in 10 years) that he would go to the department to get title search done see who was the owner of a specific property.

He would show up in line with 5 or 6 properties to search, and then he'd get to the front of the line and the person would tell him that they would only do 1 property search at a time. So to get it done, he had to wait in line multiple times. And so did everyone else. As you can imagine, the people were not in a real happy mood of having to wait, and the people behind the counter weren't in a real happy mood dealing with angry people all day.

This could all have been solved if they said, "we can do one property search for you in real time right now. If you have more than 1, leave us the addresses and return in 4 hours, we'll have the information for you." That way, people wouldn't be waiting in endless lines, and the people doing the work wouldn't be surrounded by angry people.

So why didn't it happen that way?

- People are slow to change
- People aren't intelligent enough to see a problem and try to solve it
- Morale is low because leadership is lacking
- Triage....leadership is trying to put out too many other fires to deal with this
- People are underpaid and overworked
- The people in the system hold distrust toward the people who can actually solve the problems
- Etc. Etc.

There are hundreds of other operational issues like this that have been plaguing the city and it's going to take time to get through them all. While time is going by, budgets are getting cut, and manpower is becoming less qualified.

It's easy to blame the software, but I've worked with shitty software systems in all sorts of different jobs I've had. You have to learn to work around them to get the job done, and for whatever reason, our city employees can't make it happen. Seriously, I think outsourcing is going to be the only way to get this done.

I agree that outsourcing may be in order. And when they're done outsourcing payroll that can outsource their power infrastructure to DTE.

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Originally Posted by corktownyuppie

CoD's unique problem is pretty much the same theme as all of its other problems. Its systems were designed for a different time and place, and its employees are probably not necessarily quick to transition after 30 years of "doing it the old way".

For example, it was once reported [[sorry, can't cite it or find a link) that the City of Detroit had over 100 different checking accounts, each assigned to different departments, committees, projects, etc. Well when you have that many chefs in the kitchen, there are bound to be errors.

Every big organization is going to have losses due to errors in accounting. The goal is to minimize those errors to the bare minimum by making sure that the systems themselves are streamlined. For example, if completing a mundane tasks requires 3 people to coordinate 5 consecutive steps in a series....the likelihood of error is many times greater than if it can be conslidated down to 1 person doing 3 steps in series. Payroll is complicated because of all the different moving parts. I think outsourcing it to ADP, Paychex, or some other 3rd party is really gonna have to happen at this point., IMHO.

I've seen a few real life examples where this has been relevant.

First, in my undergraduate fraternity, we used to have the undergraduate treasurer be in charge of bookkeeping, collecting all dues, and keeping the budgets. The last year in the fraternity, we somehow ran a -$2,000 cashlow one semester and collected less than 60% of our dues. After 3 years of controversial debate, the chapter finally agreed to pay a 3rd party a 3% commission to run the books. People bitched about the 3% [[leaving only 97% to spend), but in the final analysis, we've been at 99% dues collection ever since.

97% of 99 is a lot more than 100% of 60.

Second, one of my buddies owns a title company and he explains to me why he's reluctant to invest in property development in the city. He tells me [[and this might be dated, because he hasn't done it in 10 years) that he would go to the department to get title search done see who was the owner of a specific property.

He would show up in line with 5 or 6 properties to search, and then he'd get to the front of the line and the person would tell him that they would only do 1 property search at a time. So to get it done, he had to wait in line multiple times. And so did everyone else. As you can imagine, the people were not in a real happy mood of having to wait, and the people behind the counter weren't in a real happy mood dealing with angry people all day.

This could all have been solved if they said, "we can do one property search for you in real time right now. If you have more than 1, leave us the addresses and return in 4 hours, we'll have the information for you." That way, people wouldn't be waiting in endless lines, and the people doing the work wouldn't be surrounded by angry people.

So why didn't it happen that way?

- People are slow to change
- People aren't intelligent enough to see a problem and try to solve it
- Morale is low because leadership is lacking
- Triage....leadership is trying to put out too many other fires to deal with this
- People are underpaid and overworked
- The people in the system hold distrust toward the people who can actually solve the problems
- Etc. Etc.

There are hundreds of other operational issues like this that have been plaguing the city and it's going to take time to get through them all. While time is going by, budgets are getting cut, and manpower is becoming less qualified.

It's easy to blame the software, but I've worked with shitty software systems in all sorts of different jobs I've had. You have to learn to work around them to get the job done, and for whatever reason, our city employees can't make it happen. Seriously, I think outsourcing is going to be the only way to get this done.

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As far as Title searches, I've always gone to the County's register of deeds. The only thing that any City can tell you with any certainty is who paid the taxes. If you want to be sure who the property owner is, looking up the deed is always the best bet. The only problem you'll run into there is that a new property owner may not have updated the paperwork yet.

As far as the payroll issue, privatization doesn't appear to be the answer. The city employees were handling everything just fine until this new system was put into place. And at 23 million dollars for a system that was to cost 2.3 million, it appears that another one of Kwame's friends got a sweetheart deal and the City is, once again, paying for it. Privatizing the system would just ensure that one of Bing's buddies would get a hook up.

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Originally Posted by kraig

And at 23 million dollars for a system that was to cost 2.3 million, it appears that another one of Kwame's friends got a sweetheart deal and the City is, once again, paying for it.

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We have no evidence of that, but it most certainly would NOT be a surprise at all if it were to be true.

"Privatizing the system would just ensure that one of Bing's buddies would get a hook up."

From what I've read of past city screw-ups, these systems have been contracted out for design and installation by private vendors. Poor planning by city staff can play a role in a poorly setup and running system, cost overruns, etc. But we'll probably find that it was an outside vendor that did the bulk of the work on this system. This looks like the vendor that did the work:

http://www.computechcorp.com/casestu...ementation.pdf

and this isn't the first time that city employees have complained about the system.

http://michigancitizen.com/workbrain...k-p8842-74.htm

Workbrain.com redirects to a company in Georgia called Infor.

I guess Detroit didn't know what it was getting Infor! <groan> :o

Do you think the Mayor gets paid on time ?

The city doesn't have the talent to support this application. I even found a blog article about how Workbrain 4.1 has a noted bug in its "Daily Overtime Rule" especially when it goes overnight, and the fix. They have also dumped the management of this application on the department supervisiors instead of a centralized accounting department with the technical knowledge to run this software. Sounds mostly like a user problem to me.

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Originally Posted by kacz1

Do you think the Mayor gets paid on time ?

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C'mon...that's a red herring. You think that the Mayor doesn't care if his employees aren't paid on time? This isn't a "do I really care?" issue. It's a giant clusterfuck and an accumulation of shitty accounting practices for years.

Plus, I think the Mayor donated his entire salary to DPD.

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Originally Posted by Jimaz

Workbrain.com redirects to a company in Georgia called Infor.

I guess Detroit didn't know what it was getting Infor! <groan> :o

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OK, I laughed more than a little at that pun!

Payroll just like other city departments is under staff. I belived that this is part of the city plan to privatize all departments. When the city lays off employees,that leaves more work for the workers that remain. They down size the work force [[employees) but the actual work still remains and has to be done. Now you throw in the mandatory furlough days [[pay cut) vacation and sick days and you can see that there is not enough manpower to get the job done in a timely manner. Next thing you hear is the media reporting PLD can't keep the street lights on,DDOT bus mechanic's are not fixing the buses,EMS and police have slow response times and city can't process payroll. Bing cripples the work force to make it seems like the city workers are incapable of doing the work and the first suggestion that comes out of everyones mouth that plays into Bings plans is privatize or outsorce the work.

Why in holy hell is the city doing it own payroll when you can use ADP or Paychex so economically? This is what drives me crazy. The city views itself not as a provider of government services but as a provider of government jobs. We don't need all these expensive government positions. The city should outsource everything to the company that will provide the best service at the lowest cost.

I wouldn't blame Bing for poor city servies, they were in the toilet long before he arrived.

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Originally Posted by Novine

"Privatizing the system would just ensure that one of Bing's buddies would get a hook up."

From what I've read of past city screw-ups, these systems have been contracted out for design and installation by private vendors. Poor planning by city staff can play a role in a poorly setup and running system, cost overruns, etc. But we'll probably find that it was an outside vendor that did the bulk of the work on this system. This looks like the vendor that did the work:

http://www.computechcorp.com/casestu...ementation.pdf

and this isn't the first time that city employees have complained about the system.

http://michigancitizen.com/workbrain...k-p8842-74.htm

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I recall a newspaper article here from a computer company a few years ago [[not Workbrain) that told tale of how the city took a system that is installed in thousands of cities already from around a $10 million project to I think $45 million or so -- because the system had to comply with the city's methods. The city paid the extra dough so their workers could continue to function in the most archaic methods possible, rather than use this as a chance to modernize their business practices. The vendor went to the media and was willing to call them out on this.

Many are right here. The problem is deeper than staff levels or software. Its about bureaucratic competence. And that's not solved overnight. Its a long, hard process -- driven by strong leadeship. I hope Detroit can find some.

A big part of problems in gov't that I've seen over my 23 yrs is that you get a vendor who jumps into wanting to have a part of gov't outsourced to them. Whether it be payroll, janitor services, vehicle repair, collections services, etc, the vendor then latches onto a political figure or appointee to sell there service. The vendor doesn't always have the right solution, but often somthing close, particularly with software. The appointee sells the bill of goods for this vendor to the gov't entity. When it goes live, there are many problems that have to be "tweaked" to make it truly fit the gov't needs. Well, of course, all these "tweaks" the vendor has to make run up additional costs. Might be the problem with the payroll.