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The Freep's John Gallagher lays out the argument for uniting the two public spaces in today's edition. He like the tunnel concept but will take either. I prefer a bridge, mainly for the added vistas it would offer. The ultimate would be moving Jefferson underground but that isn't going to happen. How about you?
I'm in favor of the bridge. Bridges can be so beautiful to me and burying Jefferson would be a biiiitch
I would prefer a pedestrian tunnel. My experiences with tunnels underneath major thoroughfares when we lived in Nuremberg as well as visiting other cities were nothing but positive. The ability to traverse major thoroughfares safely without dealing with 8 lanes of traffic, not to mention the winter snow and wind was convenient, without the visual obstruction to the downtown core that a bridge would create.
Now in fairness the tunnels in Nuremberg, Frankfurt, and other cities provided for entire subterranean economies mostly because of the densities of the cities. While I dont think Detroit could support that, it certainly would be an idea worth entertaining as the city continues to develop a downtown core.
Somebody, anybody, post a map image marked up with the affected areas highlighted.
so what is the least expensive option? What time of day/night would such a structure be open/closed?
What are the law enforcement implications for either? [[For the underground option in particular, a permanent officer on duty?)
Even in terms of the costs, how is it paid for? Another bond proposal? Uh-oh. City residents who rightly feel that many city services are dysfunctional will not be on board. Tread carefully.
This is something that should be done in a master plan with Hart Plaza.
People still need a reason to go there. I don't see many office workers wanting to go to Hart Plaza at lunchtime, other than those few who are on Jefferson and brown bagging it. As far as tourists, many walk along the riverfront from the RenCen already and make the effort to walk through Hart Plaza to come up Woodward.
A pedestrian bridge is fine, but not necessarily a convenience. I've walked on many whereby when you add in the start and end point as well as the angle, it becomes a longer, more arduous walk than just crossing the street.
I would prefer a bridge over a tunnel. It would be less intrusive for Jefferson traffic [[lord knows all the utility lines that would have to be relocated, and then there's that 'looking for archeology remnants' from Detroit's early days that would slow that down).
I would love to see a bridge, but make it interesting [[not just simply functional) so that people would be enticed to cross it. Actually I would like to see something 'wishbone' shaped with a single ramp on the Hart Plaza side branching into a double ramp on the downtown side for either side of Woodward.
I would like to see something like the pedestrian bridge in Pescara Italy... but on a much much smaller scale...
https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attracti...a_Abruzzo.html
I agree with this. I often go through Hart Plaza, but for the sole reason of getting to the Riverfront. Hart Plaza can either be a space for events, or it's a giant, decaying concrete jungle, and never anything in between. I would love to see it drastically redesigned. I just returned from a trip to Boston and their public spaces were much better.Quote:
Originally Posted by 401don
As to the question of bridge or tunnel, I would say a decorative bridge is the way to go. It has to look good, or it may damage the perception of downtown.
I fear a tunnel would have rumors of crime, true or not.
^ Agreed! People might be hesitant to use a tunnel, whereas a bridge would give the perception of safety. In Detroit... it's often about perception.
I think putting Jefferson on a road diet would be the best and cheapest option.
I don't see how the tunnel idea is workable if the exit ramp from the Lodge stays where it is at now. Extending the Lodge tunnel just creates the same problem in another location. It's also hard to see how a Boston Big Dig style system could work without a very massive construction project that Detroit and Michigan cannot afford.
Is this what we're talking about?
Attachment 38683
If so, I say ... neither.
First off, get all the goofy out of the way and reopen the street to traffic like responsible cities do.
Then, instead of wasting money on more goofy, spend that money to improve streets, lighting and emergency service response times in the neighborhoods.
^^^Wow, what a useless post...
Absolutely spot on! Streets are for traffic, not to be used as a place to loiter. Hart Plaza is deserted 80 percent of the time and it is already paid for. People can loiter there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddle
So unbelievably wrong. If you don't like people, don't come to a city. There are plenty of 14 lane roads in the suburbs that will satisfy your craving. The money put into the Spirit Plaza will be money well spent in creating a new green space and removing a clusterfuck intersection. More to come.Quote:
Originally Posted by SyGolden48236
If they don't restore safety and faith in the neighborhoods, there won't be much of a city.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonWylie
No problem.
My neighborhood just did what was done in Spirit Plaza - closed a street to make a temporary plaza, then made the temporary plaza permanent. It's working well here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddle
Jefferson is 8 lanes wide in that location. 4 of them are zooming onto or off of an expressway. And right through Detroit's historical center, where the radial spokes should connect with its prime natural amenity. Spokes that were designed for pedestrians, horses, and bicyclists, by the way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddle
New York is a city of 8.623 million-- nearly 13 times the population of Detroit. Not only does Manhattan not have an 8 lane road, anywhere [[there is only one in the whole city, in Queens), it doesn't have an interstate except for about a half mile across its northernmost point, over 12 miles from downtown. Not even FDR Drive is 8 lanes wide. Besides, NY has successfully closed many streets to car traffic, most notably Broadway, one of its major thoroughfares. And they did that in New York's center of density: Midtown.
Iheartthed, I'm not sure you were there yet, but NY also put a bunch of other streets on a diet in your neighborhood before they made the pedestrian plaza. They extended the sidewalks at the street corners along Fulton, Lafayette, DeKalb, and elsewhere -- forcing cars to make those turns more slowly, and making it easier and safer for pedestrians. They even moved the fire hydrants closer into the streets along with the sidewalks, as if to enforce the change was permanent.
New York: responsible or goofy?
I'm with iheartthed. Jefferson needs a road diet. Only some Detroiters [[and ex-Detroiters) would think all those cars zooming through there is a good idea.
A portion of Hart Plaza's desolateness is due the the Jefferson crossing. It can take waiting for lights twice if one does not move quickly. It is also intimidating as cars are accelerating into or flying out of the Cobo tunnel.
Crossing that pain-in-the-... twice is more than enough disincentive fora lunch time wander to the river. Bridge it with a covered bridge gets my vote.
Maybe the answer is to get rid of the freeway speed traffic by tearing out M10 south of I-75 and returning surface traffic to Jefferson [[like 375). The ROW of M10 could be converted into a surface street and connect to Michigan Ave. There used to be some surface streets there at some point, right? Before M10 was put in?
The closest freeway to downtown would be 75 at that point which is OK. Jefferson is too much of a racetrack through downtown.
I also prefer the idea of a bridge [[or two) even if M10 is removed downtown. However, at street level the bridges will impact views of the river and act as a barrier of sorts, in order to be high enough for traffic clearance and require approaches that comply with the ADA.
Wow... so many logic fallacies in just 2 posts all rolled up in one... Slippery Slope, Red Herring, and False Analogy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddle
Chances are that they will be using TIFA [[Tax Increment Financial Authority) dollars to make all these changes, money captured downtown that cannot be used outside of the downtown TIFA boundary... meaning NOT the neighborhoods.
The epitome of goofy.Quote:
Originally Posted by bust
How about this, what city isn't "goofy"?
People get very mad online when they can't drive 55 MPH unimpeded through downtown Detroit... "Oh but think of the streetlights!" might be the weakest argument I've ever seen against a pedestrian plaza.
Anyway, I think we should fix up Hart Plaza, or at least program it better before we invest in any tunnels or bridges. Maybe a road diet to start, but if there's not much for people to do in Hart Plaza except trip on uneven pavers and watch garbage swirl around in the subterranean levels, the effort is futile.
Isn't there a Habitrail already going from the Millender to the RenCen? Why can't people just go into the Millender, take the escalator up one floor, in case you're tired of all that walking you're doing, come out in the RenCen, take the escalator one floor down, and bingo, there you are in Hart Plaza, and across the street?
To be honest I don't even like Hart plaza. If it was me I would keep the sculptures and turn the rest of it into a continuation of downtown as it was during the turn of the century. It's ugly and architecture can be more beautiful.
With the same beautiful architecture, but that may be wishful thinking
To be honest this is a great idea, where and who do I submit my design to. I mean, I've have this vision since around super bowl time. Drew up the pre design and back then people were saying they would never close off Woodward at Jefferson and here we are.
I'm against the uneveness of spending. It's the same old story, spend for the benefit of the few, but ignore the needs of the many. The city MUST refocus the bulk of spending on the residential areas outside the loop. The city cannot survive if they don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by EGrant
The city already is. The city is already repaving tons of roads, they've been repairing and updating the sewer system, the streetlights are fucked up because of the manufacturer and they are being replaced, foreclosures are way down, the population loss has slowed to almost nothing [[possibly reversing a little), real estate development is starting to go beyond just downtown. Every concern you've brought up is being dealt with, some quickly some slowly, but they're being dealt. You're not getting any brownie points from anyone for raising concerns we all know about.
Hart Plaza isn't attractive, so unless there is some kind of change there I doubt it matters what you do to Jefferson, but if you were going to do something to Jefferson to make it Hart Plaza more connected you should put the traffic through a tunnel, or make Jefferson a lot smaller. My opinion has long been that neither of the freeway spurs south of I-75 should exist, which would eliminate the problem with them feeding into Jefferson.
I'm sure Matty Maroun would love that... people not wanting to be stuck in traffic waiting to get to the tunnel and taking the Ambassador Bridge instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by mwilbert
Have you ever waited an hour in traffic trying to get downtown from Woodward Ave., while something is going on at either Ford Field or Comerica Park... and LCA? Won't be doing that ever again.
Choking off lower downtown by closing the freeway access while things are going on in the stadia district is a sure way to kill off restaurant and retail business downtown.
While my family prefers going downtown for lunch or dinner... long waits to get there with $30-$50 parking is a sure downer. In the last 2 years we've just been going to the Pegasus or Fishbones here in SCS rather than going thru the long and expensive hassle of going downtown on game days. Not happy about it, but make getting to downtown even more difficult, and the law of unintended consequences will definitely kick in. :[[
Sounds like the perfect case study for adding a Smart FAST bus service down Jefferson....Quote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
"Nobody goes there anymore. It's too crowded." -Yogi BerraQuote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
We live in SCS, Fraser and Warren... Smart is not an option for an extended family... especially since my sister has mobility issues, and we always take a tour around Belle Isle after every visit.Quote:
Originally Posted by EGrant
Nice slogan... but meaningless here... :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed
Detroit shouldn't really be making planning decisions to make it convenient for people who don't live there or pay taxes to the city.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
You forgot "or like to spend their money there"... :)Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed
The number of non city residents who go to ball games, opera, symphony or other cultural institutions in Detroit far outnumbers the number of city residents that do.
They may not have a voice at the decision making table of Detroit government... but this is a forum about the folks of metro Detroit.... they are not the same thing. ;)
I didn't forgot it. Detroit isn't a mall, it's a city. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
And this is a forum of metro Detroiters with opinions... not City Council...:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed
This forum is full of non-metro Detroiters with opinions too. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
You're right, we are all entitled to our opinions about places we don't live or work. If either of us want our opinions about what Detroit should do to be taken more seriously then we should become residents of Detroit.
You and your family chose to live where transit barely exists. Convenient access to transit is one of the primary factors I consider, as it has been since I realized I prefer vibrant cities full of amenities over car traffic and parking lots. I've owned cars only in Detroit. Except for then I've mostly only spent my money in the cities where I've lived, not just during visits.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
I realize you want Detroit to become more vibrant too. But it's ironic: Detroit's wide roads and expanses of parking lots are a big reason it's having such a hard time achieving that, and the cars you and your family insist on driving into the city are part of the problem. :confused:
Great. Most of the cars going through the tunnel aren't coming from or going to downtown anyway. What benefit does Detroit get from their traffic?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
This really seems like a bit of an exaggeration to me. If stuff is happening at the stadiums, not taking Woodward is already a good idea. There are a lot of streets that go downtown, and I don't really think that getting rid of the Lodge or I-375 implies that there would be no traffic along the previous freeway alignments.
Also, if you don't want to pay $30-50 parking, you don't go on game nights anyway, and freeway or no freeway isn't affecting that.
Not to pile on Gistok or anything, but going without a car is actually popular in metro Detroit too. The Fast bus[[at least on Woodward) is always filled in the morning, the most wanted neighborhoods and cities are all very walkable[[Ferndale, Birmingham, West Village, SW) and I can only see areas that have the potential to be walkable to be the next "it" neighborhoods [[Bagley, Russell Woods, maybe Warren Ave). The older demographic definitely love their cars and I don't see it changing.
When I posted my first comment... I thought... oh lordy... the mass transit crowd would eat me alive... :o had your fill yet?
We take cars when we go downtown because of mobility issues [[my late mother was in her 80s and my sister has rheumatoid arthritis in both knees)... so public transport of any kind is not an option. So for all you mass transit hipsters... one size does not fit all... ;)
I want to give a special thanks to the late great 3WC [[Tony Pieroni)... who could be snarky and controversial on this forum, but he really had a heart of gold. One year we went downtown, but all parking was full up because of a Tigers opener [[I had a planning brain fart that day!). We asked Tony if we could park in the Michigan Theatre garage. He not only allowed us free parking, but then paid for all our meals that day at the restaurant in his building [[Bagley Bar & Grille). I really miss that old goat... :[[ [[... in the nicest way!)
In the kindest way possible, don't you see what you just said there?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
You literally are the people parking inside our cultural treasures / former economic engines. Even as you support others.
Can't you see the conflict?
Gistok, as you are a very experienced ‘Metro Detroiter’ I am shocked that you are having such difficulty getting in or out of downtown and parking effectively. What you are describing sounds exactly like rookie beginner mistakes. Detroit is simple to park in for anyone who knows their way around town and knows what events are happening then plans accordingly. What is most important is to make adjustments in strategy as the city evolves and changes — which is critical to maintaining a healthy downtown.
Abundant cheap parking is not a downtown. It is a Walmart.
I empathize with your family's mobility issues, but I have to point out that it's pretty selfish to expect that Detroit should sacrifice the pedestrian experience in order to make it a little more convenient for non-residents to visit every once in a while.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
Adding further to the irony, it's traffic taming and density of varied services that make cities more accessible. Not 8 lane roads, parking lots, and mega blocks.
I have no qualms in your arguments about taking a bus downtown... but I would be traveling alone. I have a niece who drives to work every day at DMC, and a nephew who drives to work every day to the Ally Bulding [[and parks at the garage behind their tower). I would get overruled... :)
I don't want any more parking structures downtown any more than you all do. But ironically it is a requirement for banks to lend money to build buildings to have parking to go along with it. We would just rather use any excess of it during downtime... :o
Nobody hates the Macedonian Parking Cartel more than I do...
Ahhh the old "we can't have this because we don't have that" argument. Enlightened.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddle
Quote:
Originally Posted by ParisianLesion
Finally...
I totally disagree, I am of the opinion that the city of Detroit should pay for the establishment of a commuter rail system that would make it more convenient for suburban commuters and suburban concertgoers/sports fans to get to downtown.Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed
3 Major Benefits
1.This would encourage more employers to move downtown, as the avoidance of traffic congestion would be something downtown has over suburban employment centers
2. no longer having to pay for parking would also make downtown more on the level with the suburban employment centers, and would also offset, somewhat, the city income tax that suburban commuters have to pay.
3. reduce the mileage on commuters' vehicles, making downtown more of an attractive work option for people who live in somewhat far away places [[like Ann Arbor, Lansing,Toledo, and exurbia).
Lines using EXISTING RAILROADS out to
-Downriver/Toledo
-Ann Arbor/Ypsilanti,
-the I-96 corridor [[Plymouth/Novi/Brighton/Lansing/EL),
-Woodward Corridor [[basically re-start the original service that existed from 1931-1983)
-Van Dyke Corridor
-Gratiot Corridor
I think since this system would benefit Detroit city the most, we should bear the brunt of paying for this system. The only new construction would be to a downtown station and a 3-mile line from New Center to downtown. Having such a commuter rail system would also eliminate the need for all of that parking downtown, as half of downtown's land area is dedicated to parking cars.
Concerning Jefferson: narrow it to 7-9 lanes total like the other arterials [[Gratiot, Fort, Michigan)
Well as long as you don't come downtown [[which we already know you don't) then all the goofy is out of the way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddle
Using money from where? I think it's terrible policy for the city of Detroit to cover the cost of suburban commuter lines. But there SHOULD be a regional transit authority with taxation powers over Metro Detroit. That is just basic ass policy that Detroit is about half a century behind on implementing.Quote:
Originally Posted by masterblaster
There's a good argument that transit should be under the authority of the state or MDOT. The country's best transit systems [[NYC, Chicago, Boston, Phila., New Jersey, etc.) are all state agencies.
Number one option, Jefferson needs to be buried and reduced in size. A bridge would be second.
The fact that there are multiple posters opposing these ideas [[and encouraging reopening roads) is concerning.
Put an escalator and skywalk over Jefferson you come out cheaper
I don't understand the thinking that Jefferson needs to buried underground or its lanes reduced. Yes it has eight lanes, but there is this huge median down the middle of it that essentially reduces it to four lanes. Four lanes are not impossible to cross. And who cares if it takes a few minutes longer to cross Jefferson, take the time to see the beautiful buildings and landscaping. Therefore, building a pedestrian bridge or tunnel to get across Jefferson is absolutely unnecessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMichigan
Campus Martius Park, Cadillac Square Park, and now Spirit Plaza have made Hart Plaza obsolete. If they didn't exist, then more people would use Hart Plaza. I don't think a bridge or tunnel is going to change the current condition of Hart Plaza as long as these other areas exist. If the weekly Ethnic/Riverfront festivals still existed, then Hart Plaza would be well utilized. Until you have planning like that for Hart Plaza, it will continue to be underutilized. As it stands now, there are only two events that require Hart Plaza as a venue, the Electronic Music Festival and the Detroit Jazz Festival.
So the debate really shouldn't be about whether to build a bridge or tunnel to get across Jefferson, the debate should be about answering the following question, "What to do with Hart Plaza?
Royce I tend to agree with you on the Hart Plaza usage issue. I remember back in the 1980s when the ethnic festivals were downtown, it was awesome. Lots of Detroiters and suburbanites came down. The plaza was perfect for that kind of usage. Even the underground areas were used for booths and selling food. Hart Plaza was busy every summer weekend.Quote:
Originally Posted by royce
It's just the festivals all left, for various reasons [[we all know why the Yugoslavia Fest left... no more Yugoslavia).
It's just that the downtown festivals went the way of the Festive Marketplaces [[Trappers Alley, Tally Hall, Portside, etc).
pedestrian bridges can be landmarks in their own right. look at this one in Shanghai
Attachment 38701
Las Vegas has a bridge over one of the eight lane avenues where outdoor escalators take you to it. I think Jefferson became 8 lanes to accommodate the traffic coming off the Lodge and also 375. How did Jefferson looked in that area before 375 and the Lodfe were built?
Wow! That's one heck of a round-a-bout and walk-a-bout! We could never abide by this order and cooperation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by casscorridor
Another +1 on the programming issue.
Hart Plaza needs to be reconstructed as a festival site. And yes, that means having the ability to easily fence much of the area off allowing only patrons attending the event inside the park when the festival is occurring. Otherwise it is a vacant homeless haven.
Hart Plaza doesn't work as a pass-thru park. The location is such that any one going to Hart Plaza is going there because of what is happening there, and not because they are passing through. Campus Martius, GCP, etc. work as pass-thru parks because people have a reason to pass-thru. Not so for Hart Plaza. Obviously maintain some routes from downtown to the river walk, but make most of Hart Plaza a permanent festival site.
Attachment 38703Quote:
Originally Posted by stasu1213
Warehouses and factories.
^^^I'd much prefer that then what's there now. I hate Hart Plaza
Not going to work. As for right now The Detroit City 'Ward' District Council is trying to figure out how to Spirit Plaza open by November or covert it back to Woodward Ave. connecting to and from Jefferson Ave again.
That area was not meant to be a plaza. Downtown Detroit is Judge Augustus Woodward's broken wagon wheel [[Post-Psuedo Washington D.C. streetscape) design with narrow streets to keep the flow of traffic going without creating too much clogging! And it we should keep it that way.
If we should keep it the way Judge Woodward designed it, we should also have only pedestrians and horses, with wagons only allowed on certain streets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny
Times change, needs and usages change.
There are a ton of arguments for and against bridges and tunnels that have been made here that I won't restate, but one solution that may check all the boxes is a migratory bridge. Gentle ramp up for accessibility, looks nice and green, doesn't require Jefferson to be buried... and it could transition right into the newly remodeled Hart Plaza. Something like the image below, but even wider. About the width of the Spirit Plaza, but getting wider as it opens into the Plaza.
Thoughts?
https://dingo.care2.com/pictures/c2c...432014_370.jpg
Isn't there already major works going on in Spirit Plaza? I was there yesterday and a large area in front of the CAY building [[where the Spirit of Detroit sculpture sits) was boarded up and had what looked like construction workers.
It isn't too difficult to cross Jefferson from Spirit Plaza into Hart Plaza, as is. Riverwalk is popular, Hart Plaza not so popular. It looks as run down as the People Mover.
Detroit doesn't need to go quite this far, but NYC just banned cars on one of its main crosstown thoroughfares:
Quote:
On Monday the city will proceed with its pilot plan to increase public-transit travel times along 14th Street in Manhattan by banning all through traffic between morning and evening rush hours, and reducing permitted vehicles to one lane in each direction.
The “Transit and Truck Priority” lanes plan originally was developed by NYC’s Department of Transportation to boost east-west crosstown bus service for passengers affected by the now-canceled shutdown of the L train for repairs. The car ban is the first of its kind for any major thoroughfare in New York City and is expected to last 18 months.
https://www.metro.us/news/local-news...-begins-monday
Really Great Idea, the photo link does not work though.Quote:
Originally Posted by hamtramck boy
Hart Plaza is awfully run-down and rusty. It would also seem to contain quite a few longterm residents/loiterers, far more than other parts of central Detroit. The sculptures are all rather large and ugly, IMHO. A revamp of some sort is needed as part of Downtown's overall renaissance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seven&wyo
I think that regional busses would be more cost efficient than light rail. The laying down of tracks and boarding stations where nonpaying riders could get o the train could be quite expensiveQuote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed
I was in Las Vegas a few weeks ago. The bridge-with-elevator thing is quite common along Las Vegas Boulevard [['The Strip') because that road is very wide [[multi lane traffic) and is busy 24 hours a day. There's a bigger risk of pedestrian accidents on The Strip than Hart Plaza/Jefferson due to the plethora of drunk tourists in Vegas. The 'old Vegas' [[Fremont Street at the north end of Las Vegas Blvd) is now a mall for that very reason. A bridge across Jefferson would be better than a tunnel as a tunnel might bring crime and loitering.Quote:
Originally Posted by stasu1213