What's the deal with Club Envy, Kingdom, et al?

It seems nobody has raised this issue before, so I'm going to go ahead and do it...

These bars are a mess. It seems like, literally, every time they are open, there is a massive brawl, shootout, or worse. Personally, I've never been to either, but I've been caught in the crossfire of a shootout twice. A few months ago, I had to "hit the deck" when a crowd outside the bar starting screaming "GUN!" and then dudes began shooting each other in the middle of the street. I didn't stick around long enough to see if anyone was killed or merely wounded...

For the record, this is not a policing issue. DPD is always on the scene in heavy numbers as soon as an incident occurs. They block off the street and start rounding people up, but as soon as the police clear out, the club resumes business as if nothing had happened.

I have friends who go to these bars semi-regularly, and they swear it's a good time, but if these places cannot operate without their patrons routinely engaging in Wild West shootouts, they constitute a public nuisance and should be closed or have their liquor licenses revoked. I understand that these clubs/bars are businesses and that 95% of their patrons are just trying to have a good time, but you can't have a situation where people are shooting each other in the streets of the CBD every Friday and Saturday night.

The question in my mind is whether the blame should fall on the clubs or the unruly patrons, or both. To my knowledge, Kingdom and Envy are the worst offenders. They either attract people who go there planning to fight/shoot each other, or the environment of the bar, or things going on within the bar encourage such violence. If these clubs weren't in high-traffic tourist areas, or where many elderly and children reside, it would still be unacceptable, but I would just avoid being near them. However, these bars are located on two of the the busiest corners in all of Metro Detroit, i.e. they can be impossible to avoid.

My evidence is observational, but it seems that the biggest danger downtown is the existence of these clubs. With the City trying to put its best foot forward and change its public perception, it doesn't help to have repeated gunfire 2 blocks from the Renaissance Center and Cobo Hall. God help the City's PR efforts if some out-of-towner catches a stray bullet. If these bars can clean up their acts and get their patrons under control, then they should be allowed to operate, but if these saloon-style shootouts continue unabated, the City should take efforts to sanction them or shut them down.

Just saying...

Same old same old... Network, XS, Candybar, Apt and the list gets longer

I guess a couple questions to ask are whether these clubs are making a reasonable effort to see that shootouts don't happen.

1) Do they search patrons for guns when they walk inside. I've walked into several clubs in Ann Arbor and they searched me for weapons.

2) If shootouts are an issue, why aren't they required to hire at least one police officer for security in addition to the regular security? We had something in Windsor where a club owner can pay the PD to watch a club at the overtime taxpayer rate for a shift.

There's been plenty of clubs like the Box Office or that one in basement of the Holiday Inn [[forget what it was called) that lost their liquor licenses over poor security.

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Originally Posted by davewindsor

I guess a couple questions to ask are whether these clubs are making a reasonable effort to see that shootouts don't happen.

1) Do they search patrons for guns when they walk inside. I've walked into several clubs in Ann Arbor and they searched me for weapons.

2) If shootouts are an issue, why aren't they required to hire at least one police officer for security in addition to the regular security? We had something in Windsor where a club owner can pay the PD to watch a club at the overtime taxpayer rate for a shift.

There's been plenty of clubs like the Box Office or that one in basement of the Holiday Inn [[forget what it was called) that lost their liquor licenses over poor security.

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Yeah, I'm guessing they have some type of security that does pat downs, but I really don't know. Perhaps some people "get in" without going through security because they know someone. In any event, I'm wondering if there would be retaliation against anyone who files a complaint against these clubs. From what I have heard, they are run by some notorious people. It would be nice if the City actually took up the issue.

Brushstart is not exaggerating. The corner of Congress and Shelby is not a safe place from 12:30 am to 2:30 am Thu-Sat., especially on warm evenings. Four clubs within one block. Gridlocked traffic [[it's funny, even though folks will be parked around the corner, they will find it necessary to drive past the entrance to the club they just left; apparently the culture is to showcase one's departure). Thumping radios. Dozens of young men in groups milling on the sidewalk and in the street looking to see if anybody wants to start something. Groups of people shouting at each other [[almost always involving girlfriends urging their boyfriends to kick some somebody's ass). The volume is really quite impressive. Similar to a UFC event only you don't need a ticket. Kevlar body armour might be useful though. The whole scene is pretty sad.

Things always get worse in the spring when the cold weather first departs. DPD should put on a real show of force for the next few weeks. If not, there will be deaths soon.

Yeah these clubs majorly suck. They are lame, you can't even hear yourself think inside of them, the crowd is very racist [[I have been to these clubs before, to take photographs for a promoter, and I stuck out like a sore thumb because I'm white and I got yelled at, called "honkey" and "cracker", and told to leave by multiple groups). Very bad crowd there. They have no respect and are looking to start a fight with anyone. The drivers are aggressive or totally selfish -- taking up the whole street so they can show off their ride. It is the 'club culture' that breeds this attitude. I am a young Detroiter but I have no interest in this scene at all. There are much more intelligent and fun things to do on a Saturday night than lose your hearing -- and maybe your life. Stay away and complain to the city, it is the best we can do.

How do we know the city isn't in these club owner's pockets?

If so, given how corrupt Detroit's government is, wouldn't any complaining thus be ineffective?

A defeatist is his own worst enemy. ;)

There are plenty of places to go to in downtown Detroit on a Saturday night, never been to those places and I never will be there in the future.

For whatever reason, hip-hop clubs catering to a young, urban audience are often hotbeds of random violence. This seems to be the case regardless of location.

I'm assuming the main problem isn't with the clubs, but with elements of their patronage. They seem to attract many thug types who aren't shy of fights or even gunplay. I'm not sure if the problem is fixable, unless the clubs attempt to attract a different sort of audience.

The only way to prevent this is to somehow price all but the most upscale hip-hop clubs out of downtown. I don't see that happening for a long time.

I've also been waiting for the first generation from the ghetto to backlash against hip-hop as the "old folks' music." That hasn't happened yet, but I'm sure it will eventually. Give it time.

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Originally Posted by English

I've also been waiting for the first generation from the ghetto to backlash against hip-hop as the "old folks' music." That hasn't happened yet, but I'm sure it will eventually. Give it time.

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If you listen closely to the music now, there is a subtle backlash against today's music and a bigger appreciation for the "old skool" music [[note all the sampling of "old skool" records). There's also been increasing mainstream popularity of neo-soul artists as well.

It's a very slow transition though. Fact of the matter is people are always interested in anything new, no matter how generic it is. I remember hearing on the radio that there's now a whole generation of children who know nothing about Luther Vandross.

Granted, part of the problem with these incidents has a lot to do with the attraction of thug types looking to prove whatever thug types feel they need to prove at these clubs. However, I think the real problem deals with the universal closing time of 2 AM in the state of Michigan. Everybody getting out of the club at the same time creates a myriad of problems, such as tempers flaring during traffic jams or drunken patrons upset that they were forced out of the club before they were done drinking. However, that probably wouldn't exist if clubs could stay open to say 4 or 5 AM. If clubs were open later, you would have fewer people hanging around at closing because:
1. Not everyone can hang or stay up that late, and therefore would be too tired to stay 'til closing. As a result, a smaller crowd would be let out at closing, causing fewer, if any problems.
2. Not everyone can drink over that stretch of period that the club is open. When you're drunk at 2 AM you won't be able to stay 'til 5 AM because you've reached your limit and so you leave.

I've been to clubs in NYC and Chicago and I have never witnessed there the chaos that occurs here in Detroit at 2 AM. In those cities and at those late hour clubs, only the die-hards [[which I was one 20 years ago) stick around and they are literally too tired to want to fight or get into an altercation with someone at that late hour. For those who stay 'til closing, the next action is either going home to sleep or going to breakfast at Denny's.

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I've been to clubs in NYC and Chicago and I have never witnessed there the chaos that occurs here in Detroit at 2 AM. In those cities and at those late hour clubs, only the die-hards [[which I was one 20 years ago) stick around and they are literally too tired to want to fight or get into an altercation with someone at that late hour. For those who stay 'til closing, the next action is either going home to sleep or going to breakfast at Denny's.

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Eh, occasionally I see a couple drunk dudes fight over a girl or something here in Chicago. Rarely do I hear of club violence, and they don't check for weapons at the doors. Guns have been banned though in the city for awhile. Hearing that they do checks now in Ann arbor is quite alarming to me though

There is a "Gangster" mentality among young black men that's been prevelant in Detroit for years now.
That's the problem. They are very disrespectful and dare you to call them out on it.

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Originally Posted by Toolbox

Same old same old... Network, XS, Candybar, Apt and the list gets longer

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You are so right it has been going on forever...certainly a terrible thing, but a very old problem.

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Originally Posted by royce

I've been to clubs in NYC and Chicago and I have never witnessed there the chaos that occurs here in Detroit at 2 AM. In those cities and at those late hour clubs, only the die-hards [[which I was one 20 years ago) stick around and they are literally too tired to want to fight or get into an altercation with someone at that late hour. For those who stay 'til closing, the next action is either going home to sleep or going to breakfast at Denny's.

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The chaos exists in NYC, believe me. In Manhattan's Flatiron District, on 21st Street between 5th and 6th Avenue, there is a cluster of nightclubs similar to the cluster around Congress and Shelby in downtown Detroit. The block is notorious for rowdy club-goers fighting and the occasional shooting. On popular club nights the NYPD puts a mounted unit on that block along with about 5 or 6 police cars, maybe a paddy wagon or two, and probably 20 or 30 cops on foot who all stay there until everything closes.

If the shootings take place outside the club, how is it the club's fault?

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

If the shootings take place outside the club, how is it the club's fault?

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It's not the club's fault anymore than it's the fault of any of the 8 mile rd strip clubs for what their patrons do outside and on the residential streets surrounding the club.

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Originally Posted by bailey

It's not the club's fault anymore than it's the fault of any of the 8 mile rd strip clubs for what their patrons do outside and on the residential streets surrounding the club.

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Are you saying that you blame the clubs? Or that you don't? Or are you hinting you're a NIMBY from Greenacres? :)

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

If the shootings take place outside the club, how is it the club's fault?

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Are you suggesting that if the clubs didn't exist, the same shootings would have taken place?

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Originally Posted by davewindsor

Are you suggesting that if the clubs didn't exist, the same shootings would have taken place?

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They run the security. They frisk their patrons. They are a business. Are you saying that what happens off the property of a business owner is his fault? After he's done everything he can do?

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

If the shootings take place outside the club, how is it the club's fault?

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It could be if they were patrons of the clubs. They can receive nuisance violations for loud customers, disruptive behavior, or litter. A club in my neighborhood received too many of these violations and they were shut down by having licenses and permits revoked.

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Originally Posted by wolverine

It could be if they were patrons of the clubs. They can receive nuisance violations for loud customers, disruptive behavior, or litter. A club in my neighborhood received too many of these violations and they were shut down by having licenses and permits revoked.

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I haven't heard any complaints about loudness, littering or "disruptive behavior." Anyway, once they leave the door of the club, they are no longer customers of the bar, yes?

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Are you saying that you blame the clubs? Or that you don't? Or are you hinting you're a NIMBY from Greenacres? :)

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...what davewindsor said.

But really, all I'm saying is that If we're going to absolve these clubs of all actions that take place once their patrons exit the building, then we have to absolve all establishments of that responsibility.

Either clubs are responsible for the effects of the clientele they attract or they are not. One can not argue that strip clubs have to be closed because they bring a bad element to a neighborhood and then absolve Club Envy [[etc) of the shootings and fights that regularly happen out front...because hey.. they frisked everyone before they came in.