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In an otherwise useless article, there was one tidbit at the end that Triple Properties [[I know, I know, take whatever they say with a grain of salt) is exploring the reopening of the observation deck on the Penobscot as a tourist draw. I for one would champion that, as it's arguable one of the top views in the city. I'll hope that this promise actually happens.
http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...ight/22465593/
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeg19
That would be awesome.
Although while they were talking about the red ball, why didn't the writer ask them about the crown lights, some of which are burned out, and none of which turn on until after 9 PM, even though it gets dark at 5 this time of year?
If changing the light fixtures is really hard for the owner, I would guess that giving her exterior a cleaning is out of the question [[she is filthy). The observation deck would be great but I have little faith that this is nothing more than lip service, considering Andreas Apostopoulos track record of delivering on what he claims he is going to do.
Ugh, can he just sell the building and go away? I'm sure someone would pay him a pretty good amount to buy the Penosbcot right about now.Quote:
Originally Posted by ABetterDetroit
They seem pretty serious about it...
http://www.wxyz.com/news/historic-pe...eck-in-detroit
And a company is offering free labor to fix the lights...
I'm just curious. Are you one of those "champions" on here that expect everything for free or would you commit to paying 20 bucks to go up to the observation deck if they reopened it? It costs a lot of money to operate. You have to pay security guards to watch it, maintenance costs, insurance, wear and tear on the elevators, etc... Everybody wants this and that in the city because they think it would be cool, but when it comes down to pulling out some bills from their wallet to contribute, they are nowhere to be found.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeg19
With the track record of the building owner ,I'll believe it when I see it.
Who buys an icon building and can't afford to replace lights ?????
This would never fly in NYC ,Chicago, SF, Ect .
The owner is a bottom feeder , buying building for pennies on the dollar and doing NOTHING with them.
come on really? talk is cheap, and actions speak louder than words.
I'll gladly swallow my words if this happens.
If they really install color-change LED crown lights like the Empire State Building has, that would be really cool. It would also mean that our three tallest buildings would all have the capability to celebrate major events by changing the colors of their crowns.Quote:
Originally Posted by dtowncitylover
But with Apop's track record, I'll believe it when I see it.
I would gladly pay $20.00 to go to the observation deck. I realize it's not for free, heck you have to pay to go to the top of Rock plaza , so why not expect to pay here ?Quote:
Originally Posted by davewindsor
I would totally pay $20.00 , not much more though. And I wouldn't do it often.
Honestly, I wouldn't pay $20 to go up there. I don't see a demand for it because we've already got the Ren Centre. I've gone to the restaurant at the top of the Ren Centre before, which is higher, bought a drink [[spending less than that) and went down again. But, if the day comes that it does open, we'll see if people are willing to pay $20 to go there and whether enough people go for it to at least break even. I guessing it won't, but we'll see I guess...Quote:
Originally Posted by Detroitdave
I think $20 would be too much. That's how much it is for the Willis Tower observation deck in Chicago, but that building is probably twice as high and has a bigger floor. Plus there's souvenir merchandise all over the place. The Penobscot should be around $7-$10, maybe more if they actually make it a major tourist destination.
I couldn't imagine it being as low as $7-$10. Downtown Detroit just doesn't have the volume of tourists in downtown like Chicago does to get enough people visiting the observation deck to make it work. Maybe if it's open on game days and special event days only. But still, why go there when you can go to the higher Ren Centre?Quote:
Originally Posted by animatedmartian
Carew Tower in Cincinnati is $2 I believe and Terminal Tower in Cleveland is $5. At both, you just take the normal elevator to the appropriate floor and that's it. Pretty simple concept, I doubt the operating costs are high.
Put a glass roof on it and make it a bar.
Even though the RenCen is approximately 160 feet taller, I guess one would go to the Penobscot because it's outside, which is pretty cool. It would be a totally different feeling being out there on a nice summer day rather than inside on the top floor of the RenCen.Quote:
Originally Posted by davewindsor
Not really sure what you mean by "champion".Quote:
Originally Posted by davewindsor
But yea, I'd gladly pay to go to the top and get a great view of the city. It'll give a different perspective of the city from that view rather than the Ren Cen. As to whether or not it would cost a lot of money to operate, I'm not sure how so. You're gonna have 3 or 4 security guards making $9 an hour and that's you main blockade to this happening? I doubt it. They'll put up a steel cage like the Empire State Building or a glass facade so nobody jumps, and away we go. And what "maintenance" does an outdoor observation deck need? A good powerwash once a year? A guy to sweep it at night once it's closed? Yes, extra insurance costs would be in this, but "wear and tear" on the elevator? Gimmie a break. Normal maintanance on the elevators should be just fine. It's a minimal cost attraction for people willing to fork over $10-$15 bucks for a thrill. And I doubt it'd be open 24 hours a day. If you did it Thurs-Sun from 6pm-midnight, that would be more than enough I'm sure.
Because the Ren Cen doesn't have an observation deck. You can't go into Couch Insignia unless you're a customer and you can't take pictures.Quote:
Originally Posted by davewindsor
Quote:
Originally Posted by davewindsor
Preservation Detroit has been offering downtown tours for decades... and among them are walking tours of the downtown skyscrapers. In fact until recent years that included a stop at the observation deck of the Penobscot Building.
Whatever the costs, you might be surprised to find that there are people willing to pay for them. The downtown theatre tours are $45... and they're always booked to capacity.
Let's say at least 4 security guards/employees. You need someone at the lobby entrance to collect the money. One to escort them on the elevator so they don't want wander around the building and probably at least 2 on the observation deck to stop jumpers/penny throwers. Add payroll costs and a medical plan and you're probably looking at around $18 an hour. So, 6 hours x $18 x 4 employees is $432 a day. Now, being that it's an observation deck, the insurance company is gonna say, what happens if someone throws a penny off the deck and the penny lands on someone's head on the sidewalk. The Penobscott's insurance company is gonna get named in a lawsuit. Probably looking at another few hundred a day. With the excess traffic, the insurance company is probably gonna want the elevator inspected every morning. Let's say incidentals another couple hundred bucks. So, we're looking at what, around $900 a day as a break even point.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeg19
So if you were running it 4 days a week, you'd need 90 people a day on average at $10 just to break even. I don't see that happening in this city. 45 people a day at $20 sounds like a more realistic price point, but even 45 people visiting it a day sounds like a stretch to me.
I agree that insurance will be a cost, but $450 a day? That's $160,000 per year. I don't think insurance would cost that much just for the observation deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by davewindsor
Like I said, I went up there and bought a drink and went back down. They let me take pictures. There was that big king's chair I had a picture taken on--don't know if it's still there--and I took several pictures of the city.Quote:
Originally Posted by animatedmartian
And if one person gets seriously injured a year, do you think their lawyer is gonna ask for less than $160,000?Quote:
Originally Posted by Khorasaurus
Fortunately, that's not how insurance works. By the way, a quick Google search indicates that insuring an entire building the size of the Penobscot costs a couple hundred grand a year. They aren't going to nearly double that just because of an observation deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by davewindsor
They'd probably ask for it to be fully enclosed somehow to even insure it all, then add a more more reasonable amount onto the premium.
And what if people would rather not buy a drink? What if they're not even open? [[They're literally closed half the day and on Sundays) You still can't go up there without being forced to patronize the restaurant and it's not worth going up there to buy something I don't want just so I can do something else. It needs to be a real observation deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by davewindsor
An observation deck is a completely different can of worms from offices. It's not like adding another floor of offices to an existing office building. Unless the observation deck is fully enclosed in glass, I can't imagine a "more reasonable" premium. If a penny or marble can get through a mesh or net enclosure, it's a big liability if it hits someone on the sidewalk below. If a jumper manages to jump on the safety net a few times and fall through and then land on someone on the sidewalk below, it's also a big liability.Quote:
Originally Posted by Khorasaurus
Are you telling me you don't drink fluids? Are you an alien? I forgot, apparently your martian physiology doesn't allow for it. Hell, why don't you just hover your spaceship above the city and take pictures?Quote:
Originally Posted by animatedmartian
I bought a coffee and they let me sit up there and take pictures. A lot cheaper than the twenty bucks i'd have to pay to go up the Penobscot if it ever came to fruition.
PS Why do you think it's closed half the day? This is an observation area without competition and you want to add another observation area to downtown to compete with the Ren Centre? Perhaps, there's just not enough tourist traffic to sustain one of them. So what sense does it make to add another one??
What is available for people to do in that building anyway, as of now.. ?
It's closed because it's a restaurant, not an observation deck. Completely two different operations. I don't have to patronize a restaurant if I don't want to.Quote:
Originally Posted by davewindsor
Tourist traffic has nothing to do with it. If it did, then you wouldn't have to buy a drink when you go up there. Real observation decks might have a cafe off to the side along with souvenirs and other touristy merchandise, but you're never required to buy any of it.
The reason I went up there was to get a view of the city, not patronize a restaurant. Patronizing a restaurant was simply the admission price to accomplish my objective.Quote:
Originally Posted by animatedmartian
Tourist traffic has everything to do with it. I'm a tourist and that's why I went up there. I know a lot of other "tourists" that did the same thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by animatedmartian
All that matters at the end of the day is how much money came out of my wallet. If it's cheaper to buy a drink to get the highest view of downtown than to pay a cover, why wouldn't any reasonable person do that? I don't get your point.
You're still forced to patronize the restaurant.Quote:
Originally Posted by davewindsor
Because what's the point of buying something that you don't want? Why should I have to spend a single dollar at that restaurant when I can just go to other observatories to get what I want with nothing else?Quote:
Tourist traffic has everything to do with it. I'm a tourist and that's why I went up there. I know a lot of other "tourists" that did the same thing.
All that matters at the end of the day is how much money came out of my wallet. If it's cheaper to buy a drink to get the highest view of downtown than to pay a cover, why wouldn't any reasonable person do that? I don't get your point.
There are tours offered of the RenCen including a trip up to the restaurant and you are allowed to take photos. I'm sure if you google it you can find information or you can inquire at the information desk in the winter garden.Quote:
Originally Posted by animatedmartian
Yea, they're at 12 noon and 2 pm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Detroit
But still, the point is that dedicated observation decks are open all day and year round and all I have to do a pay a ticket and go in. In Detroit, there's no official observation deck so you have to go through all these unnecessary hoops to achieve the same thing.
I'm just tossing this out there but, I don't see any reason why, if they're even a reasonably competent company, they couldn't figure out a way to open an observation/sky deck, make a few bucks, lose a few bucks but draw attention to their property.
You own a building that size with a view like that. Why wouldn't you utilize it.
Other people have. It seems to be a popular urban thing.
dwindsor, maybe you're like me, lay on the couch and watch football, maybe some trout fishing. But there are people that enjoy other things.
Attachment 25709
Trust me, there are safe ways to do this. It's an investment, it's probably a decent return. One more reason to visit Detroit or enjoy it while you're visiting.
Some people don't want to ride donkey's down to the bottom of the Grand Canyon.
I agree with you old guy.... [[you can cancel me from that donkey ride). At least half of all the buildings downtown have windows that open [[as was seen many years ago by that guy who jumped out of the window at the Buhl Building)... so the concern of falling objects [[pennies, marbles, people) would be no worse for the Penobscot Observation Deck than it is in much of downtown....
You are buying admission when you buy the drink. If you don't want to pay to get in, go during the free hours or pay for admission elsewhere. It's that simple. It's not gonna be free at the Penobscot either.Quote:
Originally Posted by animatedmartian
I don't want to pay for an expensive drink when they are cheaper drinks elsewhere. They are charging you for the drink, not for being up there.Quote:
Originally Posted by davewindsor
I would rather pay $10 for the Penosbcot Observatory than $4 for a coffee that I could go somewhere else to get cheaper. Doesn't matter if it's a taller building or whatever, it's still overspending money on something that I don't want.
The Empire State building is a huge attraction with an entire theme built around 'the experience'. They have made it about more than just the view. A concept like this could work in Detroit one day when we begin to attract volumes of tourists. It really is a possibilty. Look at the light show they do with the building also. At $29 or more for each visitor a lot can happen.
http://www.esbnyc.com/explore
http://www.esbnyc.com
Dude, do you work for Coach Insignia or something? If you don't like the idea then don't go. They wouldn't be targeting you as a customer anyway since it's a tourist draw, not for someone who lives a 10 minute drive across the river.Quote:
Originally Posted by davewindsor
Are you making a commitment to pay $20 to go up to the Penobscot Observation Deck if it opens as well? We'll see how well it does if they do a trial run. I think it'll be a bust. A lot of people love to talk the talk here, but I get the feeling that when it comes down to shelling out 20 bucks to go up there most won't--they'll just b==ch about how expensive it was in the next post after it closes a month after it opens because it didn't break even.Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed
You'd rather pay $10 admission than $4 for coffee as admission. Yeah that makes a whole lot of sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by animatedmartian
Not that it'd be $10 anyway, more like $20.
Where do you keep coming up with this $20 figure.... besides you, no reference source has mentioned an amount? That's not logic... that's just making up a number and then using it as part of an argument.... :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by davewindsor
$20 is my minimum guestimate. It may even be higher like $29 like someone posted was the cost of the Empire State Building. I already broke it down how. There's employees that have to be paid, there's insurance, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
Maybe davewindsor is secretly concerned about the possibility of smelling the piss fumes from midtown while on the observation deck.. :rolleyes:
That doesn't make any sense since I already stated I wouldn't waste my money on admission to the Penobscot.Quote:
Originally Posted by subsidized