the national economy

Given that
-the U.S. has a $22T national debt or $269,113 of federal debt per family of four,
-we at least has to pay the interest on this debt,
-the federal debt is again about to rise at a $1T/year pace,
-we have a $621B annual trade deficit [[2018),
-we have to choose between higher taxes or higher deficits,
-new taxes can be income taxes, tariffs, tolls, fees...,
-Democrats, President Trump. and most Republicans are doing nothing to restrain spending or to increase taxes,
-signs abound that the recovery has peaked and a recession is brewing,
-and we are being entertained with campaign promises of free stuff costing more trillions,
there is the need for a thread to entertain thoughts and proposals to address our situation.

Modern Monetary Theory - a beginners guide. AOC believes in this. MMT's premises, as I understand them, include that government's should not be afraid of printing money, interest rates are unnatural and should be zero, and that if inflation kicks in from too much private and government spending, then taxes could be increased on consumers and businesses. If it works or at least believed in, it is a license for expensive new government programs.

There's such a weird confliction.

I recently had a lumber guy tell me that prices are up and willingness to make deals is down because of so much new construction.

Yet I also see lumberyards and other businesses closing.


People say they want all levels of Government to do more yet they want lower taxes and smaller Government.

I think the biggest problem is many feel that the government is there as a mommy.

IF we stopped being a consumer and started being a builder,Free would not be needed,Free is the easy way out instead of dealing with what really needs to be done.

It does not cost a politician anything to promote free,it is a safe word for thier base and requires no explanation as to how to pay for it.

If a collage student could graduate into a decent paying job,they could pay for thier debts.

If decent paying jobs were advailable,$15 per hour would not even be an issue.

If people were making decent money they could afford the things they desire.

If the free stuff would stop it would Free up funds to deal with other pressing issues like infrastructure and schools etc.

When the Chinese and Indians start being able to purchase the cheap crap that they export they will become thier own market,they are going through thier industrial stage and history shows what happens when the wages are raised.

You cannot ask for free from the government but yet turn around and support financially Everybody in every country but your own without lowering your own standards.

That is what has been happening and the results are what we now see and the country borrowing in order to dig out is not working,the time will come to pay the piper and this country will crash when it happens.

They want to dump trillions into climate change,guess what,we will never be able to change the climate,it will happen and we will adapt.

Save the planet,ban paper bags to save the trees but kill the oceans with plastic.

They come up with all of these things without realizing that we pay for it while major corporations are making millions,they love it.

They create issues then try to look like saviors with the solutions,but people that support them do not realize that they are the ones that are going to pay for the solutions,decreasing thier standard of living even further.

Its a trap.

For an example.

Dupont held the only patent for Freon,that patent was set to expire.

The call came that Freon kills the ozone,which opened the market outside of DuPont.

Counsumers paid hundreds of millions to convert thier homes and cars from R12 to 134A in order to save the planet,134A was a direct replacement for R12 but yet the dealers charged the adverage person $1200 to “convert” over to 134a,there was no conversion.

So the American consumers paid hundreds of millions from thier pocket in order to save the planet while actually doing nothing in the process.

All it did was open the market to other suppliers in order to fill a demand that was already being filled.

But it made people feel good.Cheaper to just hit up a massage parlor.

I saw a survey the other day that said that 75% of women polled from age 20 to age 53 prefers a socialist society over a capitalist one.

I have never met any women that were that way outside of a few gold diggers.

A lot of it is a form of propaganda,telling people what they want to hear in order to place the idea of acceptance in thier minds,it does not matter if it is feasible or not.

Screw the Repubs & Demons, Vote Libertarian.

The U.S economy was "rescued" with a massive debt binge and the end of binges are almost always followed by a hangover. Auto debts are at record high levels, student loan debts are at record high levels, consumer credit card debts are at record high levels. Corporate debts? Yep, record high levels. We've incurred debt at the expense of future growth, and we'll pay for it eventually. It's not going to be pretty!

Or at least look left and right when crossing the street of politics unfolding to policy and social culture.

Who'd think only bad things come solely from one direction?

I don't......

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Uncledave54

Screw the Repubs & Demons, Vote Libertarian.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Uncledave54

Screw the Repubs & Demons, Vote Libertarian.

---

I agree with the libertarian mindset and think the founding fathers were of the same,outside of the religious aspect of excepting gays,they would have never gone for that.

We are also kinda stuck in the role playing savior to the world,the strong always try to eat the weak and the last time we sat back in the end 100 million lives were lost.

Until it gets to the part of open borders,with the way the world is we as a country would be overwhelmed with people fleeing poverty,take that part out and I could be comfortable as a libertarian.

Keep in mind though,the south was all about less government intervention along with a lot of the other libertarian thoughts,and we know how well that went and they are considered traitors still to this day.

There is to much money in government for any of them to give up any power.They created that power to circumvent the whole tree of liberty needs to be refreshed aspect.

We as a country are not on a sustainable path,China said they will conquer the world without fireing a shot and I believe it,they are in it for the long haul we are in it for what can you do for me today,few care about tomorrow.

Presidents can propose budgets but they still have to be passed by the house and senate,to say Trump created debt is a slippery slope,no matter what he proposes the house is not going to pass it,remember Obama and his ,I have a pen and am not afraid to use it? How well did that work out.

This morning's BBC World News headline: Migrant Children's Crises: Democrats Agree $4.5B Aid for Migrants at Border Since our federal debt is already $269,113 per family of four, and our annual deficits are approaching $1T/year, this $4.5B for illegal alien children will have to be billed to our own children. It isn't even a compromise bill.

"The Democrats' version... contains several strict rules setting out that the funds can be used for humanitarian aid only, and "not for immigration raids, not detention beds, not a border wall."

AOC is a child when it comes to this. She's thinking simplistically, to a group listening simplistically. Often she will trod right back over a statement she makes admitting her low knowledge on the give subject. Shocking....:rolleyes:....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by oladub

Modern Monetary Theory - a beginners guide. AOC believes in this. MMT's premises, as I understand them, include that government's should not be afraid of printing money, interest rates are unnatural and should be zero, and that if inflation kicks in from too much private and government spending, then taxes could be increased on consumers and businesses. If it works or at least believed in, it is a license for expensive new government programs.

---

In the mean time we have children here [[Detroit and US other cities and communities) that go to bed in poverty and hunger every night.

Where are our priorities?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by oladub

This morning's BBC World News headline: Migrant Children's Crises: Democrats Agree $4.5B Aid for Migrants at Border Since our federal debt is already $269,113 per family of four, and our annual deficits are approaching $1T/year, this $4.5B for illegal alien children will have to be billed to our own children. It isn't even a compromise bill.

"The Democrats' version... contains several strict rules setting out that the funds can be used for humanitarian aid only, and "not for immigration raids, not detention beds, not a border wall."

---

Maybe off thread Wayfair employees are staging a walkout because Wayfair is providing the beds for the detention centers and the employees feel that they are contributing to inhuman conditions.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/business...uhN/story.html

This is why we are where we are,where we are at.

Complain about inhuman conditions but when a company provides comfortable beds to improve those conditions boycott them,and walk off the job.

Nothing needs to make sense,it just has to give a moment of satisfaction.

Last time the was a balanced budget was in 2002,which was also the start of the housing boom when everybody became expert real estate investors,then it all crashed and we are back to robbing Peter to pay Paul and printing money.

^^^ There's absolutely no solution sought here. Only screed, poli-tricks and more incoherence. What were the children sleeping on under former president Obama??

**Incoherence Spoiler Alert**

Would the protesters prefer there be NO BEDS provided at all?! Back to the aluminum foil sleeping bags? ....SMH....

--------------------------------------

I can do one better [[towards something coherent): I say send some of those beds for free to the poor destitute children of Detroit!

AOC got this grist going by comparing the centers to concentration camps.

Good job -- You go girl!

If only Trump would step the frig' down so the far left can stop, THINK, and cease with the pretzel-headed logic of denouncing everything deemed Trump related!!

^ I agree send 4.6 billion to the border to deal with illegal immigration not fix only covering the last 6 months.

That is 4.6 billion gone and added to the debt.

If we took the same 4.6 billion and picked 5 cities and pumped 1 billion into each inner city improving the schools and advancing careers,we would get that money back in increased productivity.

That is going into debt with a return verses spending billions and trillions in the name of security and fake compassion and it is just gone with nothing to show for it.

I think it takes one demented and borderline traitor to the country to spend billions on everybody else but thier own citizens.

You feed your family first when you have extra then you can be in a position to help others,you are not going to starve your own family in order to help somebody else.

We do not serve the government they are supposed to serve us,a government for the people by the people,some of these far left nutjobs really need to take a step back and re-evaluate what thier role in this picture really is.

Ehh, all the photos you can stand.... looks like mostly SJW's.

I'm sure someone not protesting in the factory is like 'Please go away so I don't loose my job!'

Comment section is pretty wild BTW:

'A prison with a bed is still a prison'

Here is an interesting break down of the national debt and who owns it.

As you can see, if you add up the debt held by Social Security and all the retirement and pension funds, almost half of the U.S. Treasury debt is held in trust for your retirement. If the United States defaults on its debt, foreign investors would be angry, but current and future retirees would be hurt the most.

https://www.thebalance.com/who-owns-...l-debt-3306124

The second group of Democratic presidential candidates were asked, by a show of hands, who supported giving free healthcare to illegal aliens.

https://media.townhall.com/townhall/...039bbaed70.png

“That is our direct message to the families in Central America: Do not send your children to the borders.” The US Border Patrol, he said, should be able to “stem the flow of illegal crossings and speed the return of those who do cross over….Undocumented workers broke our immigration laws, and I believe that they must be held accountable.” When Obama presented his health care plan to Congress in 2009, he specifically asserted that undocumented immigrants would not be eligible for subsidies." -President Obama in a 2014 interview with ABC News

This is but an another example of more pure FREE 'things' poli-tricks. You're WOKE if you agree.

REM level asleep, defacto racist Trumpster if you question the soundness of it all, so the absolutist narrative goes.

Daily, US citizens continue without access to mental and health care services, and for example infant mortality is high in many cities including Detroit.

Yet we have the option to provide FREE healthcare to illegals [[opps, I meant to say, eh-um migrants)?

Why has this country lost priorities; becoming so disparaging of it's own existing populations?

Is the presence of Trump worth such long term consequences?

To them it is worth burning the country to the ground to get to him.

Even Arnold is into the farce,while he was governor of California the illegals over citizens concept was exceptable,they are all up there with the bla bla blab.

What is even worse is the ones that have been in politics 20-30-40 years and have done nothing are all of the sudden in a position to do something?

To me anybody out of California politics that has 60,000 homeless in thier cities has no buisness dictating to the rest of the country on how things should be.

The woman crying in front of congress about the poor little drowned girl with her arms around her father is verbatim to the ambassadors daughter that was brought before Congress in tears about the poor little dead children that were yanked out of the hospitals in order to justify going to war.

Hah - The torches? LOL! It's become a 'religion' replete of non-negotiables, righteousness, with a zeal to right wrongs from the same crowd that acutely deny the construct of right and wrong...:rolleyes:...

Thus dissolving their cause in the solvent of their own ideology. Follow the contradictions and incoherence and it's a clear view...

How can a reasoned more centrist candidate be elected from this mess?

The self-loathing types included as well, putting emotion well over thinking. There'd never be 'enough' absolution or appeasement of this countries wrongs to satisfy. While other atrocities are selectively ignored. Meanwhile we're dragged along for a heck of a ride.

Bring it down BABY!! I wonder if even half of them own a passport?

As I've said before when I get into my ANGST mood -- frig-it. Open the doors wide. Free rationed health care for all [[excepting the persons/ groups conveniently exempting themselves). No borders. Free college too!

Eventually [[it may take longer than in the south, and Cali) we'll see how well that works out up here in Michigan!!

Everyone happy now!!?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Richard

To them it is worth burning the country to the ground to get to him.

---

Look at the bright side from Miami thier next stop is in Detroit,Free entertainment,Ringling could not compete when it comes to a circus.

Illegal immigration is a big issue and effecting the states of Fl,Texas and California the most,the rest of the country is not really impacted by it directly and maybe it is hard to understand the billions being spent indirectly,Kinda like if you do not see it you are not effected by it.

I was watching interviews the other night,African American southern baptist,when asked what thier priorities were in candidates and voting their response was the church.

They had heavy support for Obama because he went there and attended service verses standing outside campaigning after service.

Thier view was if he genuinely attended service then he was more apt to do the right thing as a person,that was thier steadfast belief.

Southern baptist is a powerful religion in the south and does not relate to strictly to the color of ones skin.

I was raised in religious faith but I soon found out somebody attending service on Sunday does not necessarily translate to following the practice come Monday.

Sorry,that had zero to do with the national debt unless we are going to delve into what actually creates it and it appears that a lot of it is emotionally driven verses sound economic practices.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Richard

To them it is worth burning the country to the ground to get to him.

Even Arnold is into the farce,while he was governor of California the illegals over citizens concept was exceptable,they are all up there with the bla bla blab.

What is even worse is the ones that have been in politics 20-30-40 years and have done nothing are all of the sudden in a position to do something?

To me anybody out of California politics that has 60,000 homeless in thier cities has no buisness dictating to the rest of the country on how things should be.

The woman crying in front of congress about the poor little drowned girl with her arms around her father is verbatim to the ambassadors daughter that was brought before Congress in tears about the poor little dead children that were yanked out of the hospitals in order to justify going to war.

---

Yes, 60,000 homeless out of a population of almost 40 million, and an incredibly dynamic economy can dictate a lot of things, but I am not suggesting they should. lol

The amount spent on homeless in San Francisco 5 million

The amount spent in San Francisco illegal defense fund only 11 million.

They find more money to defend illegals,that is only the amount spent in their defense fund and nothing else,then they can find for thier legal homeless American citizens.

Who has the priority?

No way that is a government for the people,that is a dictatorship.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Richard

The amount spent on homeless in San Francisco 5 million

The amount spent in San Francisco illegal defense fund only 11 million.

They find more money to defend illegals,that is only the amount spent in their defense fund and nothing else,then they can find for thier legal homeless American citizens.

Who has the priority?

No way that is a government for the people,that is a dictatorship.

---

So, Richard, when people voted albeit in a minority for Chump, they ended up with a dictatorship?

Are you saying California electors are deplorable?

Here is a more precise idea of how much San Francisco spends on the homeless population;

https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/...s-13178743.php

California politicians are traitors,anybody that cares about thier country and puts thier fellow Americans first is considered a deplorable.

The states paying the most to care for illegals:
1. California - $23,038,125,353
2. Texas - $10,994,614,550
3. New York - $7,489,141,357
4. Florida - $6,290,429,108
5. New Jersey - $4,466,838,574
6. Illinois - $3,220,767,517
7. Georgia - $2,487,719,503
8. North Carolina - $2,437,965,113
9. Maryland - $2,378,996,947
10. Arizona - $2,314,131,964

When federal costs are included, the price tag nationally soars to $135 billion a year.

Michigan spends $857 million which fills a lot of pot holes.The ones in the street not to be confused with the other pot aspects

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/map-illegal-immigration-costs-california-most-23b-all-states-8

San Francisco spent 250,000 in order to get 43 illegals to vote in school elections

The feds spending 46 billion on illegal immigration,that money has to come from some where and is another addition to the national debt.

They could have picked 46 cities and pumped 1 billion into their education system and had 3 year olds running around that would make Einstein look dumb.

Detroit as sanctuary city? Wow.........

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Richard

Look at the bright side from Miami thier next stop is in Detroit, Free entertainment, Ringling could not compete when it comes to a circus.

Illegal immigration is a big issue and effecting the states of Fl,Texas and California the most,the rest of the country is not really impacted by it directly and maybe it is hard to understand the billions being spent indirectly,Kinda like if you do not see it you are not effected by it.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zacha341

Detroit as sanctuary city? Wow.........

---

I know Hamtramck is...

^^^ For their existing community priority-wise I'm certain [[and hope).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by oladub

Given that
-the U.S. has a $22T national debt or $269,113 of federal debt per family of four,
-we at least has to pay the interest on this debt,
-the federal debt is again about to rise at a $1T/year pace,
-we have a $621B annual trade deficit [[2018),
-we have to choose between higher taxes or higher deficits,
-new taxes can be income taxes, tariffs, tolls, fees...,
-Democrats, President Trump. and most Republicans are doing nothing to restrain spending or to increase taxes,
-signs abound that the recovery has peaked and a recession is brewing,
-and we are being entertained with campaign promises of free stuff costing more trillions,
there is the need for a thread to entertain thoughts and proposals to address our situation.

---

Lets get back to the start of this conversation as it has veered wildly off course.

There are a series of questions explicit and implicit here, I will break these down as follows:

How bad is it?
How much worse can we let it get [[higher debt) before big trouble?
What should we/could we do about it?

1) The answer is 'not good', but could be worse.

If one examines the debt to gdp charts for nations around the world, Japan is by far the worst, at 234% debt to GDP.

It has yet to implode economically, but it is stagnating, and will likely shrink in the years to come.

Worth noting here is the very high proportion of Japanese debt that is held domestically, which gives them a bit more breathing room than most.

That said, I would not seek to emulate their level of indebtedness nor would I be sure of any other developed nation pulling it off.

Look at the chart below, the US has the 12th highest debt to gdp in the world.

It is better than Greece [[which imploded), Italy [[which is wobbly) and Japan which is stable, if stagnating.

On the other hand its worse that most other developed countries and growing faster as well.

http://worldpopulationreview.com/cou...national-debt/
****

This leads us to

2) Its difficult to assess a particular tipping point, and I won't venture a specific prediction. However, if one assumes the tipping point for the U.S is somewhere between the Italian number and where Japan is.....

We might assume somewhere between 150% debt to GDP and 220% debt to GDP would be very problematic.

The question then becomes, how long before the numbers reach that level if nothing changes.

Currently the US is increasing debt to GDP at between 2-3 points per year.

If that trend held, the US would reach a danger zone in 11-28 years.

That, of course, assumes unending economic growth and the current pace, which seems unlikely.

A single year recession would accelerate the timeline by between 2-5 years.

Any which way you look at it, there is time to deal with the situation, though sooner would be better than later.

******

This brings us to #3) Solutions.

As a practical matter, the solutions can not be one-sided. A solution predicated solely on tax hikes would require profound tax hikes which would be destabilizing to the economy and not at all popular politically.

Neither can the solution be all spending reduction. Social security is not generous enough to take much out of it, de-insuring Americans who have medicare/medicaid isn't going to fly either.

The need is also there for infrastructure spending to rise, rather than decline.

That really leaves open to reduction the US military and a panoply of smaller programs ranging from agricultural subsides to corporate welfare to small social programs used by relatively few people.

There simply isn't enough money on the table there to achieve balance without greater tax revenue.

Actions on spending restraint:

- Flatline US military expenditures and phase them down to the same 2% of GDP the US would like to see its NATO allies achieve.

-Minimal US military layoffs, mostly positions eliminated by attrition and voluntary buyouts.

-Direct R&D spending to a drone-sub program, phasing out manned subs would save a bundle of cash.

-Consolidate US bases, eliminating the majority of them overseas and maintain only the strategically appropriate number in the United States itself.

-Cut spending on prisons by eliminating cash-bail and holding people not yet convicted based solely on the risk to the community.

-decriminalize simple drug possession, legalize marijuana [[federally)

-remove most federal crimes where laws overlap state laws needlessly.

-focus more on diversion for non-violent offenders, particularly 1st time offenders.

-reduce minimum and maximum sentences, and eliminate consecutive sentencing and charge-stacking.

-modestly, and with ample warning, raise the retirement age. Its currently rising to 67 over time, this should be increased to 69.

-ensure medicaid focuses on illness prevention/health promotion spending. Its cheaper to give someone addiction treatment that deal w/endless overdoses, its cheaper to help someone lose weight by surgery, medication, or even a gym membership than deal w/the health consequences of obesity and contraception is cheaper than abortion or unwanted pregnancies.

- eliminate most job training programs in favour of a tuition grants for any pre-existing training [[apprenticeship, certificate, college/university) for a profession proven to be in demand. Why duplicate existing programs, just help people afford what's already there.

Raising revenue:

- Legalize marijuana, tax it.
- National Sales Tax of 5%, would not applies to groceries or residential rent and would be refundable, in full, to people earning less than $30,000USD
- Eliminate the mortgage interest deduction, but allow people who have already bought on the basis of that deduction to be grandfathered.
- Eliminate a variety of other personal and corporate deductions but offset this by raising the basic tax-free amount for individual earners and by reducing the corporate rate by 1%

Between those 2 measures, if you can restrain spending growth to roughly inflation in all non-cut areas, that should bring you pretty close to balance.

^ if all of that does not work in Canada,what makes you think it would work here?

Serious question.

First thing everybody starts with is the military but fails to remember when we kept our military within our borders in the past,world wars had a habit of springing up at the cost of hundreds of millions of lives.

In the end it still cost us billions and lives to straighten it out,so it’s a pay me now or pay me later situation,the difference is as it is now it is not costing millions of lives in the process.

Its a deterrent and preventive maintenance of sorts,considering the alternative it’s a small price to pay.

I agree with the decriminalize of weed and not legalized like states are doing.

If the feds follow the decriminalized aspect they open the door for the cartels,who will always look for other means of producing revenue.

The feds can bust weed because it is bulky,fentanyl is being used to supplement the cartel incomes in the states that have legalized weed.

Take a aspirin,cut it into quarters,now take one of those quarters and cut it in half,that half of a quarter is enough to kill four adults immediately.

They have to give the cartels and others a way to generate income,otherwise they start switching to not so very nice ways of generating income,because it is what they do.

The feds spent billions in trying to destroy the American mafia,so they neutered them.

What replaced them? The Russians,Mexican,Jamacian, and every other little street gang that terrorizes cities,it’s like a whole Pandora’s box of evil was opened up.You have to pick necessary evils.

Look at what happened when Reagan declared war on drugs,the first thing they did was stop the flow of weed,so everybody switched to cocaine and crack,how did that work out?

I agree with non privatization of prisons.

People do not go to prison while waiting for trial,they are placed in county jails until the outcome is determined.

I agree on the dropping of the cash bond aspect,but that has nothing to do with the National debt.

I agree with abolishing the irs and flat taxing,but they are the police force of taxes,it’s going to be them or somebody else in charge.

The problem with the National debt is it reflects the citizens,we have become consumers and not producers,when you just consume you have to pay somebody else to produce,they will be the ones making the money and you are the ones spending it.

Recently in Massachusetts a school reporter busted the school because they were paying prisoners 100,000 to recover school seating upholstery,$28,000 under others bids.

The prisoners themselves were being paid $1 per hour and learning a new trade.

Out of those wages deductions were made,incarceration costs,restitution to victims,fine and court cost repayment etc.

Makes sense right?

Nope,the kids in the school petitioned to stop that process because they felt that it was not fair to the prisoners.

So under pressure they stopped the practice.

Its that mindset creating debt and writing checks that generations have to pay for.

If you want to cut the National debt in half,just deport all of the radical left that want to spend trillions on everybody else but Americans.

That is the quickest,easiest and most cost effective way.

Here's what you don't do....

- Lower the corporate income tax from 35% to 21%

- eliminate the inheritance tax

- Lower the capital gains tax [[seriously ? You're actually contemplating this ?)

- Keep the minimum wage the same for 9 years

- Limit immigration when workers are needed now and especially in the future.

- Kick the Social Security can further down the road

- Lower clean air standards when 4 out of 10 Americans are breathing air equivalent to smoking a pack of cigarettes a day. Why does anyone care about global warming with a stat like that ?

I have been smoking a pack of cigarettes per day for the last 44 years,never been hospitalized yet many others that have lived a so called healthy life have passed well before thier time.

Its kinda like the global warming approach,come up with all kinds of costly solutions and regulations that will never change the course of actions.

The only people that benefit from it is the companies that are providing the solutions,people say the amount of pollution has decreased a lot sense the 1970s because of actions taken.

Of course it has decreased along with the factories that produced it,so I guess if one is going to be poor and working 3 jobs at least they are healthy,outside of the adverse affects of the stress of paying the bills.

The only thing that has been accomplished is trading one adverse affect for another,did not really solve anything and the climate will still tread on changing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zacha341

Detroit as sanctuary city? Wow.........

---

“We do not stand down to our commitment to being a sanctuary city,” Castañeda Lopez said. "We don’t stand down to our commitment to being a welcoming city. We do not stand down to our commitment to welcoming refugees.”

https://www.michiganradio.org/post/d...grant-policies


But the mayor feels different

Duggan says Detroit Police have always cooperated with federal immigration agencies, especially Customs and Border Patrol since it sits on an international border. He says they will still do so.
“If Detroit police arrest somebody today for breaking and entering, and in the course of running the ID check find they’re here illegally, they contact customs and immigration,” Duggan said. “Sometimes deporting is a simpler process than prosecuting.”

https://www.michiganradio.org/post/d...ed-trump-order


So one or the other may be a bit confused ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Richard

I have been smoking a pack of cigarettes per day for the last 44 years,never been hospitalized yet many others that have lived a so called healthy life have passed well before thier time.

Its kinda like the global warming approach,come up with all kinds of costly solutions and regulations that will never change the course of actions.

The only people that benefit from it is the companies that are providing the solutions,people say the amount of pollution has decreased a lot sense the 1970s because of actions taken.

Of course it has decreased along with the factories that produced it,so I guess if one is going to be poor and working 3 jobs at least they are healthy,outside of the adverse affects of the stress of paying the bills.

The only thing that has been accomplished is trading one adverse affect for another,did not really solve anything and the climate will still tread on changing.

---

You should try smoking two packs a day for the next 44 years.

I think someone off of Bewick and Mack, or Linwood and Fullerton should be polled on their opinion on all of this.

Not just the activists over-focused on immigration policy related to Trump - not the larger picture beyond his presidency!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Richard

“We do not stand down to our commitment to being a sanctuary city,” Castañeda Lopez said. "We don’t stand down to our commitment to being a welcoming city. We do not stand down to our commitment to welcoming refugees.”

https://www.michiganradio.org/post/d...grant-policies

.....

---

Lower taxes, higher taxes, bwahaha. The IRS has neither the personnel or budget to collect taxes assessed and owed. And current laws have hamstrung the Service in doing so. Hey can't allow them jack booted thugs to take control!

^^^ Yet they had the will and might to go after 'certain' targeted groups under former president Obama.

A warning about where we may be headed after a decade of artificially low interest rates.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/why-low-interest-rates-could-cause-a-colossal-reckoning-151351867.html

We need corrections in order to keep the balance otherwise the whole country would be like California and be paying $5000 a month for 27 sqft apartments.

When you look a the big money thier biggest gains come when the economy is in the dumps,bank cash when times are good buy low when there is blood in the streets.

The problem with warnings is the big players pull out monthes before the little guys get stuck with the aftermath,warnings are always to little to late.

We are on track to add $1T to the national debt this year. I blame Trump for allowing the spending cap to be raised so Democrats would reopen the government. I expect very little of Democrats. This kind of spending will be ruinous when interest rates go up. Social Security, defense, health, 'income security', and interest are the big items. They will have to be cut and/or taxes will have to go up significantly to pay for all this or we will go the route of the Weimar Republic, Argentina and Venezuela. Look at what a tiny share of revenue comes from tariffs - presumably included under misc. or customs duties.

from https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article...e-deficit-hits https://www.cnsnews.com/s3/files/sty...?itok=M59tu5CY

Quote:

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Originally Posted by oladub

They will have to be cut and/or taxes will have to go up significantly to pay for all this or we will go the route of the Weimar Republic, Argentina and Venezuela.

from https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article...e-deficit-hits https://www.cnsnews.com/s3/files/sty...?itok=M59tu5CY

---

Whoa, whoa, and WHOA!

I happen to agree with you that the budget ought to be balanced.

That the current deficit spending is excessive and reckless.

I won't bother with the partisan nonsense you managed to spew in there as if Republicans don't control the Senate and Presidency and didn't control both houses for much of Obama's term as well.

But......really, Venezuela?

Do you know how ridiculous that makes you look? How much it diminishes your argument?

Come on now.

Suppose your worst nightmare came to pass and the deficit were erased entirely by raising taxes. [[won't happen......but I digress)

The US tax burden, over all is 27.1% of GDP. This is among the lowest of developed nations in the world.

Of that, US Federal taxation is roughly half or just over 13%.

If you wanted to raise 1T in new revenue, at the federal level, you'd be looking at a tax hike of 38% federally [[or 19% overall).

That would raise US Federal taxes to 18.6% of GDP, or an overall tax burden in the range of 32-33% of GDP.

That's not just lower than France or the Scandinavian countries.....

Its lower than New Zealand, or South Korea.

You'd be a hell of a long way from Venezuela.

Exaggeration and hyperbole are not your friends.

The deficit is a poor policy choice, with some consequences in the medium term.

It is not, however, the apocalypse.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...e_to_GDP_ratio

Canadian Visitor, I am comfortable with my argument. I wrote that "I blame Trump for allowing the spending cap to be raised so Democrats would reopen the government. I expect very little of Democrats." Note that I blamed Trump for caving. If you can name any Democratic candidate for President who has a plan to trim back $1T of federal spending after creating new spending programs of their own, give me a link. Until then, I don't expect anything from Democrats to solve this problem except more taxes and devaluing the dollar.

Unlike Canada, our Party members do not vote in lock step blocks. Democrats tend to vote more one way or the other than Republicans. The blame is not black and white. In 2011, Members of the Republican Party opposed raising the debt ceiling. In 2013, the government had a partial shutdown with Obama on one side and Republicans on the other. In 2014, the debt ceiling was increased by more than $1T under Obama; the sixth time in seven years. Two of those years Congress was run by Democrats. In 2019, faced with including for $5.7B for a wall or shutting down the government, Democrats chose to shut down the government. Republicans again caved. In September the debt ceiling will have to raised again partly to pay for taking care of everyone who wanders across the border. Who needs borders when we can just raise the debt ceiling over and over -not that that is the only issue.

Venezuela sits on one of the largest oil deposits in the world. Oil is a fungible commodity. Yet, Venezuela's economy is crashing. "The key element of a currency reform is devaluation, which in principle is meant to stimulate domestic economic growth. ... Devaluation of the bolivar will not change the price paid for Venezuelan crude." -Google's bold print

Elizabeth Warren has suggested adjusting our currency to the same end. I could have added Uganda to my list. Devaluing currency is a politically astute way of transferring the value of a currency from its individual owners to government's over spenders. FDR significantly reduced the value of U.S. currency to balance his books during his depression. Republicans are not above this either. Nixon took us off the gold standard.It is my belief that the U.S. will not catastrophically collapse like Venezuela, the Weimar republic, or Uganda. More likely, we will atrophy more like Argentina and be unable to keep pace with China.

Re Venezuela,When Chavez was in office,the United States was importing 70 % of our oil from there at a price above market rate.

We were actually subsidizing his reign of terror,thier oil values were based on what we were paying them,China now has a lien on future production for loans with trading not in USD.

We will not collapse because we owe China to much,they play in economic warfare and worst case scenario they with team up with Russia and not go by the USD like they are already doing in petroleum dollars.

They will just phase our currency out over time.

Banks are already gearing up for a major shift to crypto currency because they do not physically have to deal with money,you can run an international bank from a laptop.

With both Bernie and Warren promoting a 'wealth tax', I wanted to compare the early history of Woodrow Wilson's income tax. To pave the way for an income tax, the 16th. Amendment was passed allowing an income tax.

Wilson's " Revenue Act of 1913 lowered average tariff rates from 40 percent to 26 percent. It also established a one percent tax on income above $3,000 per year; the tax affected approximately three percent of the population. A separate provision established a corporate tax of one percent, superseding a previous tax that had only applied to corporations with net incomes greater than $5,000 per year. Though a Republican-controlled Congress would later raise tariff rates, the Revenue Act of 1913 marked an important shift in federal revenue policy, as government revenue would increasingly rely on income taxes rather than tariff duties. " -wikipedia
jjjjj
I didn't realize that the same legislation that instituted the first income tax also lowered tariff taxes. $3,000 in 1913 = $77,445 today because there has been a 2492% inflation rate since 2013. But the initial income tax was on only 1% of income over $3,000[[$77,445 today).

Fast forward to Elizabeth Warren and Bernie's plans to tax wealth. According to this, it takes in more of the population. Everyone would have to list all their wealth on their tax form. There hasn't been any mention of amending the Constitution to allow a new wealth tax. There hasn't been any mention of a cost of living adjustment so this tax could creep along with inflation just like the income tax did. Neither has there been any mention of cutting tariff or income taxes.https://image.businessinsider.com/5d...jpeg&auto=webp

Correction and rewrite of the last paragraph of my previous post 44:
Fast forward to Elizabeth Warren and Bernie's plans to tax wealth. Everyone would have to list all their wealth on their tax form. Neither has mentioned amending the Constitution to allow a new wealth tax. There hasn't been any mention of a cost of living adjustment so the wealth tax won't creep along with inflation and make the middle class pay like the income tax did. Neither has there been any mention of cutting tariffs, income taxes or the national debt. Anticipated wealth taxes have already been dedicated for new spending programs. What happens when the rich find foreign loopholes, the dollar is devalued and/or the economy crashes? Does anyone really believe that the middle class won't also be paying a wealth tax and the rates will be stagnant? Canadian Visitor made a good point that property taxes are a wealth tax we already pay. A federal wealth tax would also be an additional real estate property tax.

This is a pro net worth tax implementation argument but they do bring up some of the complexities of actually implementing it.

One factor that may partially explain why the United States does not have a federal net worth tax is that there is debate as to the constitutionality of a federal net worth tax.

Estimates of the revenue raised by a net worth tax are highly uncertain, as they depend on both the detailed specification of the tax and assumptions about how families would respond to the tax, for which little guidance is available in the academic literature. One important ingredient in this estimation is the elasticity of taxable wealth, which summarizes the various behavioral responses to the tax. Those responses affect the amount of wealth that taxpayers would report on their tax returns. To reduce their net worth tax liabilities, high-wealth individuals might, for example, hide wealth abroad or increase their spending [[thus reducing their wealth).

https://equitablegrowth.org/wealth-t...rk-in-the-u-s/

So basically it sounds good when we say,tax the rich but implementing it is a whole nother animal.

It is easy to see the ramifications of doing so by looking at what happened to other countries when they went down that road.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Richard

It is easy to see the ramifications of doing so by looking at what happened to other countries when they went down that road.

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Examples, please.

^ you can do a case study on Argentina,once one the richest countries in the world.

Do to thier love of Peronism and think social programs are the answer they have spent 53 years out of 54 providing more social programs that they could pay for,outside of the billions that were stolen by the husband and wife consecutive presidential appointments.

In order to increase revenues they instituted high corporate taxes and personal taxes,which causes dis-investment.

Notice the common thread in multiple countries that are currently on the skids because of their tax the rich and corporations in order to pay for it all.

Here is a little homework

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WfGj13vREPA

Watch What is going on in Berlin at the moment.

Because of the high cost of real estate much like London,Paris,New York city etc.

There is a movement being pushed by the residents for the government to take the buildings from the owners and make them social dwellings.

It was started by a group that had a punk bar for 30 years and received an eviction notice and he feels he has a right to the building but not have to pay for it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X7sb-AziEn4

It is a Vice Video funded by Soros.

Which I find to be an interesting character,a billionaire that made money on capitalism but yet uses it to push socialism,maybe because he already got his?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Richard

^


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WfGj13vREPA

Watch What is going on in Berlin at the moment.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X7sb-AziEn4

---

Yeah, videos that give oversimplified and distorted views of the exceptionally complex goings on of Argentina's economy are great for disinformation.

Anyone who thinks they can gain accurate information from those things - whether produced by the right or left - is a fool. Many doctoral dissertations have been written on the subject, as have numerous peer reviewed papers and discussion sessions. The only thing there is anything like a consensus on is that one of the biggest issues has been a lack of steady policy. Even under Peron, each 5 year plan contradicted the previous one.

If everybody else is a fool how come you are not in charge of the socialization of America.?

It actually takes a fool not to see that your preferred system has proven time and time again,the money flows to the top while everybody else stays poor.

It is simple mathematics,no country can create enough revenue to the point of the social freebee benefits outweigh the average income.

It All has to be paid for one way or another.

See what is happening in Ecuador with the rioting in the streets because the austerity measures dictated that the government can no longer provide subsidized gasoline?

All of these countries have tax and chased the rich out of the country and out of existence,pander to the voters with free stuff then go running to the IMF for a loan because it is a unsustainable concept.

What does the IMF say? You want the money in order to save your country then rein in the costs,they do and there is rioting and bloodshed in the streets.

But yet here in America everybody is a fool because they cannot grasp the concept of how everybody should just be poor outside of those in power,I guess eating dirt does relieve a lot of stress on what to cook for dinner every evening,so there are some positives.

You are trying to push something like it is the best thing for the country sense sliced cheese.

Guess What,There is no system that you can put out there that has not been tried,so it’s not like the obvious is not staring one in the face.

Everybody already knows what happens when you jump off of a 50 story building,all this is saying is let’s jump off of the building wearing blue pants and that will change the end results.

So funny Richard. You live in a country that bursts at the seams with subsidies, and you don't even know it. Educate yourself.

^ yes,very good contribution.

Look at the heavy subsidized inner urban core,who pays that?

What happens when the balance of those receiving verses those paying becomes upset?

I guess we could even it out and cut our school lunch programs out and apply that to healthcare,because when there is a finite amount of resources you have to cut somewhere,then we can even cut more by prioritizing the heathcare by sending those over a certain age to the back of the line because the younger ones are more productive.

Cut even more by eliminating expensive medical care in the name of the greater good,it always seems to boil down to numbers.

Seems to be working in Canada eh?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Richard

Seems to be working in Canada eh?

---

Your continue bias against and hatred towards Canada and Canadians mirrors your hatred of intelligent people, facts and those with a conscience.

Now, as to that's working in Canada, eh? No place is perfect, including Canada........but listen glass house.......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ife_expectancy

Countries ranked by life expectancy [[ a good proxy for healthcare)

Canada #12; U.S. #31

average life expectancy in Canada 82.2,
average life expectancy in the U.S. 79.3

Knowing you; we'd hear BS about how that doesn't count because of violence or obesity......

So how about we compare infant mortality instead? Not that may toddlers are murdered, or suffering from morbid obesity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ortality_rates

Canada has the 28th lowest rate of death for those under 5 years old.......[[something we should improve on)

The U.S., however, is #32.

Just sayin.

The United States is still a great country; but it would be better off cutting you loose, if only anyone else would take you.

^ would an intelligent person spell it “here” or hear?

I do not hate Canada,I just have a dislike for the hypocrisy.

The Fraser Institute, a Canadian public policy think tank, estimates that 52,513 Canadians received non-emergency medical treatment in the U.S. and other countries in 2014, a 25 percent jump from the roughly 41,838 who sought medical care abroad the previous year.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-cou...or-health-care


Then in 2016 CVT.CA put it at 60,000


So explain it to us unintelligent ones, if the free system is so great why would 53,000 need to jump border for health care?

The UK has announced that it is building 40 new hospitals,in order to better serve the needs.

That is a lot of hospitals,does that meen they were unable to serve the needs without them?

Do you really get what you pay for?

My friends wife is under the UK NHS,she was not feeling well,they gave her the standard 90 day appointment,they flew over to the states in the interim and a few days later she was feeling worse.

She went to a local hospital and was admitted immediately into surgery because she had a blockage.

She would have been dead in the UK waiting on the 90 days.

I guess that is how they keep the checks and balances in place.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Richard

I do not hate Canada,I just have a dislike for the hypocrisy.

The Fraser Institute, a Canadian public policy think tank, estimates that 52,513 Canadians received non-emergency medical treatment in the U.S. and other countries in 2014, a 25 percent jump from the roughly 41,838 who sought medical care abroad the previous year.

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Listen, uninformed hypocrite; 1.4 million Americans sought healthcare outside the United States last year.

That's more than twice as much per capita as Canadians.

So says, the American Journal of Medicine.

https://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002...620-X/fulltext

I noticed you corrected your intelligent spelling lol good job.

Canada has 32 million? Where as the US 325 million stands to reason that the US numbers would be more. Eh?

Just admit it,placing the shiny apples on top of the rotten ones does not make them all good.

Canada’s provincial governments pay and borrow as they go — and rank among the most indebted sub-sovereign borrowers in the world. According to Don Drummond, an economist appointed by Ontario’s Liberal government to help fix its finances, Canada’s largest province is projected to see health-care costs soar to the point where they will consume 80 percent of the entire provincial budget by 2030, up from 46 percent in 2010.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/...utionary-tale/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Richard

I noticed you corrected your intelligent spelling lol good job.

Canada has 32 million? Where as the US 325 million stands to reason that the US numbers would be more. Eh?

---

Did you notice the words 'per capita' in my post?????

The U.S. is 9x the population of Canada but has 23 times the number of people leaving the country to receive medical care.

You lost the argument. Completely, whole-heartedly without feint hope of redemption.

Quote:

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Canada’s provincial governments pay and borrow as they go — and rank among the most indebted sub-sovereign borrowers in the world. According to Don Drummond, an economist appointed by Ontario’s Liberal government to help fix its finances, Canada’s largest province is projected to see health-care costs soar to the point where they will consume 80 percent of the entire provincial budget by 2030, up from 46 percent in 2010.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/...utionary-tale/

---

Two observations, the first is that Canada's provincial governments are among the largest sub-national governments in the world, period. As such it follows that they would have comparably high debts.

But total debt to GDP in Ontario 40%, which when added to the federal number of 32% gives you 72%, well less than the United States.

Also, that report on projected healthcare costs of 80% of the provincial budget has proven to be wrong with the number at just over 40% last year, at 62B out of 150B in annual spending.

***

In summation you can't win an argument with me; you're not sufficiently well informed; you don't care about the facts; as such you're almost always wrong.

^ you just do not make a lick of sense.

If the economics were fine why would they need to appoint an economist in order to fix its Finances ?

According to you they were not broke,but the experts disagree with you,then you pretend to care about facts.

Let me guess,somebodies brother in law needed a job so they said let’s pretend that the system is broke,just do not tell CV about it because he/she would prove us wrong.

The topic was about failed healthcare systems and examples of,Canada provides a good example of as do many other countries,we were not discussing comparing the Canadian healthcare verses the United States.

That is a whole nuther topic.

What do you think is going to happen if another long term 70s or 80s recession kicks in,outside of the system imploding in on itself?

It is not about winning a discussion,it is about how the freebee programs effect the national debt and governments have to borrow money to prop up the programs,creating a cycle of constant cycle that they cannot recover from.

I posted a case in point with Argentina,Ecuador and now with Canada,sooner or later it catches up.

They were singing the same song in the 70s But here we are.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BYRTK62pVWQ

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Richard

^ you just do not make a lick of sense.

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To someone such as you who gets his "information" from thoroughly discredited sites, and is always content with not checking the veracity of said information, it is not surprising that actual fact-based information would not make "a lick of sense."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rb336

To someone such as you who gets his "information" from thoroughly discredited sites, and is always content with not checking the veracity of said information, it is not surprising that actual fact-based information would not make "a lick of sense."

---

and I should get my facts from ABC news or something like that?

You keep acting like you are coming up with solutions that nobody in the rest of the world has never tried.

History provides the facts that are undeniable.

Try looking at all sides of an issue instead of just saying they have it so it works,you would not buy a used car based solely on the color of the paint.

If you really look at the programs that your side is offering it would take a minimum of 5 years to implement and if they do not work or thier shelf life ends who gets caught in the middle.

Not the ones implementing them,history also shows us that they always have a habit of starting on top while everybody else suffers.

But keep on the track of everybody that disagrees with you is an idiot like CV,it seems to work well in discrediting your own argument.

The United States is a bit more complex and has a total different history then these little easy for government to control the population countries like Canada and such,we do not lay down that easy.

You can also look back on history and see that every generation before you also had the same view that this country is so screwed up and it was on them to change it,where are they now? Even the radicals that were throwing bombs around in the sixties ended up getting married,buying houses and having families.

Follow some of the anti fafia guys and see where they are at 10 years from now.