Detroit Police Brass Retreat to Lansing for a Working Holiday

I am all for the Police and Fire Departments but this is undeniably the stupidest thing I've heard lately. After listening to council telling Detroiters they will have to lay off additional firefighters and police personnel, Charlie LeDuff brings this to our attention.
What the hell is Godbee thinking?

While the City is in such dire straits, why would Godbee or Mayor Bing allow this to take place? I have said it before and I will say it again...Bing and Godbee are just talking heads...all talk, no action, except for a good time.

Detroit Police Brass Retreat to Lansing for a Working Holiday

^^^^Oops, sorry, that was part of the post that somehow got deleted. Thanks for posting it.

God almighty. What are these pinheads thinking???????

There was a time I was proud to say I was a retired Detroit Police officer. Nowadays, I just tell anyone who asks "I retired from Fords.". No one gives a shit about that.

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Originally Posted by Ray1936

God almighty. What are these pinheads thinking???????

There was a time I was proud to say I was a retired Detroit Police officer. Nowadays, I just tell anyone who asks "I retired from Fords.". No one gives a shit about that.

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Ray, the bad thing about all of this is that most of the officers on the force today are dedicated and want to do good for the citizens of Detroit...it's management that makes ALL cops look bad. How can people help but think that all cops are bungling idiots when the management can't figure right from left. The guys on the streets are where they are supposed to be, told where to go by the dispatchers and respond to all calls, no matter how late.
You know as well as I do that sometimes they can make judgements on each individual case, but most times, they can't be arbitrary, they do what they are told.
Be proud Ray, because no matter what anyone says, Detroit Police are the best...past, now and future!

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Originally Posted by Ray1936

God almighty. What are these pinheads thinking???????

There was a time I was proud to say I was a retired Detroit Police officer. Nowadays, I just tell anyone who asks "I retired from Fords.". No one gives a shit about that.

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Are we reading the same article?

DPD is an organization under stress -- from top to bottom. They have a training budget. Quite possible that it can't be used for payroll. Regardless, they realize rightly, and decide that they should do organizational planning and develop management. This seems like a really good idea. Don't we want qualified, informed, and well-trained adminstrators?

If they were going to Bermuda, I could see the problem. They're going to Lansing. Probably not chosen because of its beaches.

I am glad they are doing professional development. Bravo. They made a decision that it was best to be away from home. That's not at all uncommon for a retreat. For police admin. its really necessary. If the phone rings, they'd have a hard time staying at the conference if they were in Detroit.

Give these guys a break -- or point out something that I'm missing.

Can't anyone ever make a decision without getting criticized for something? That's how you end up with ass-covering bureaucrats.

"Give these guys a break -- or point out something that I'm missing. "

Those 40 yahoos would have done the C of D a lot better by just grabbing 20 marked police cars and gone on patrol for the three days. Blowing money by going out of town with the D in such dire straits may not be criminal, but it sure is downright stupid.

I hope at least that the end product of this sojurn of theirs is "gosh, let's get back to basics!", because that's what is needed.

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Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Are we reading the same article?

DPD is an organization under stress -- from top to bottom. They have a training budget. Quite possible that it can't be used for payroll. Regardless, they realize rightly, and decide that they should do organizational planning and develop management. This seems like a really good idea. Don't we want qualified, informed, and well-trained adminstrators?

If they were going to Bermuda, I could see the problem. They're going to Lansing. Probably not chosen because of its beaches.

I am glad they are doing professional development. Bravo. They made a decision that it was best to be away from home. That's not at all uncommon for a retreat. For police admin. its really necessary. If the phone rings, they'd have a hard time staying at the conference if they were in Detroit.

Give these guys a break -- or point out something that I'm missing.

Can't anyone ever make a decision without getting criticized for something? That's how you end up with ass-covering bureaucrats.

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I generally agree with you. What this points out, though, is that there is a *serious* disconnect between labor and management at fundamentally cultural levels.

More than likely, half of these 40 "high command" officers need to retire or be fired. There are many pencil pushers within the department whose uniforms are pristine, polished, new, crisp, while the officers on the streets have a hard time getting a spring jacket or rain gear. The new class of recruits that just graduated in April almost didn't get their uniforms, their gunbelts, or their hats because the City didn't pay the bill to Metropolitan Uniform across the street from 1300 Beaubien.
There is such a thing today as Skype....get all these individuals together in one room, buy them lunch and have a conference on the 13th floor of the CAY building.

These are lean times, talks of laying off police...paying out more than $4 million dollars on lease cars from 2004...cops with no working radios or computers in their cars. The only reason the new police cars that Charlie LeDuff uncovered sitting in a parking lot were there was because the IT department of the CofD hadn't installed computers yet because they didn't have them.
I am all for further education but this is no time for a "retreat" anywhere.

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Originally Posted by corktownyuppie

I generally agree with you. What this points out, though, is that there is a *serious* disconnect between labor and management at fundamentally cultural levels.

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OK -- perhaps that's what they recognize and plan to address. If you are discussing controversial things and ways to change that 'disconnect', you want people to be 100% free to discuss all their ideas without fear. You can't do that where a uniformed officer's brother-in-law who runs the Powerpoint projector or prepares the continental breakfast overhears something.

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Originally Posted by Buy American

More than likely, half of these 40 "high command" officers need to retire or be fired. There are many pencil pushers within the department whose uniforms are pristine, polished, new, crisp, while the officers on the streets have a hard time getting a spring jacket or rain gear. The new class of recruits that just graduated in April almost didn't get their uniforms, their gunbelts, or their hats because the City didn't pay the bill to Metropolitan Uniform across the street from 1300 Beaubien.
There is such a thing today as Skype....get all these individuals together in one room, buy them lunch and have a conference on the 13th floor of the CAY building.

These are lean times, talks of laying off police...paying out more than $4 million dollars on lease cars from 2004...cops with no working radios or computers in their cars. The only reason the new police cars that Charlie LeDuff uncovered sitting in a parking lot were there was because the IT department of the CofD hadn't installed computers yet because they didn't have them.
I am all for further education but this is no time for a "retreat" anywhere.

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What you say here suggests that the problem wasn't DPD, but the City's IT department. DPD did their job. They bought the cars. Good for them.

In a bureaucracy, this is common. Each little area is a fiefdom. You can't get anything done, because its someone else's territory. Sometime administrative rules. Or Union rules. Money doesn't solve this.

Its also possible that money caused this problem. We create hundreds of 'programs' at the city, state, and federal level. Each 'funds' some little thing. It may not be the case here, but someone 'funded' cars, but perhaps didn't fund 'computers'. Then this type of thing happens. Someone was worried that the 'car' money or the 'computer' money might be misused -- and spent on parties at the Manoogian. So ever-more specific rules get applied. And in the end, a giant bureaucracy enjoys life. We need to be careful about all the little rules that get passed. In the end, you have something as complex as a tax return necessary to get a computer into a police car. [[Sorry slightly off topic, but we don't need more criticism -- we need something else to change the way we run our governments. I don't know of any examples of cities that truly have 'empowered' their cities to get the job done efficiently. I do blame both administration and union here. And I frankly don't know what you can do. Has any city found a way to truly re-think government?)

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Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

What you say here suggests that the problem wasn't DPD, but the City's IT department. DPD did their job. They bought the cars. Good for them.

In a bureaucracy, this is common. Each little area is a fiefdom. You can't get anything done, because its someone else's territory. Sometime administrative rules. Or Union rules. Money doesn't solve this.

Its also possible that money caused this problem. We create hundreds of 'programs' at the city, state, and federal level. Each 'funds' some little thing. It may not be the case here, but someone 'funded' cars, but perhaps didn't fund 'computers'. Then this type of thing happens. Someone was worried that the 'car' money or the 'computer' money might be misused -- and spent on parties at the Manoogian. So ever-more specific rules get applied. And in the end, a giant bureaucracy enjoys life. We need to be careful about all the little rules that get passed. In the end, you have something as complex as a tax return necessary to get a computer into a police car. [[Sorry slightly off topic, but we don't need more criticism -- we need something else to change the way we run our governments. I don't know of any examples of cities that truly have 'empowered' their cities to get the job done efficiently. I do blame both administration and union here. And I frankly don't know what you can do. Has any city found a way to truly re-think government?)

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With all due respect, in my opinion, which doesn't count for much, I don't think any of this is a union problem or that blame can be put on a union. The unions in the City of Detroit, the automobile companies, or Detroit Schools always seem to get blamed for the woes of the organization they are working for. I will admit that some unions have become greedy during their lifespan, that's a given; but overall, unions have always been a good thing for the workers. By making sure there is a fair wage, fair hours, safe working enviornment, etc., the unions have worked. It's not the unions that are mis-spending and mis-managing the little bit of funds that are left in Detroit.

Sorry, I don't mean to get on a soapbox here.

A police officer isn't qualified to install the computers into the scout car, I am assuming it was the IT department, however, I may be wrong. It could be the company who sold the City the computers had a contract to install them and the City has not fulfilled their part of the bargain, ie., paying the company. What I do know is that those cars sat in a parking lot for a long time, no computers installed. Charlie LeDuff comes along, gets wind of this, publicizes it, amazingly, the cars are out on the roads, minus the computers.
The administration within the Police Department and all of the CofD can't seem to figure up from down, right from left. Then, to go on a "retreat", [[and I don't care if that money was designated strictly for that purpose), is ludicrious.

Brand new cops, 33 graduated this past April and those from the class before, will be making poverty level money, and they are still willing to go out daily and put themselves at risk for the citizens of Detroit. It's obscene the way the City plays while police and fire pay, and many other individual employees within the workforce of the CofD are paying the price for a lavish lifestyle and continued legal support for the white collar thugs who have been caught and are still sitting on the edge of their chairs, waiting for the hammer to drop on them.

Again, sorry for the vent.

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Originally Posted by Buy American

With all due respect, in my opinion, which doesn't count for much, I don't think any of this is a union problem or that blame can be put on a union. The unions in the City of Detroit, the automobile companies, or Detroit Schools always seem to get blamed for the woes of the organization they are working for. I will admit that some unions have become greedy during their lifespan, that's a given; but overall, unions have always been a good thing for the workers. By making sure there is a fair wage, fair hours, safe working enviornment, etc., the unions have worked. It's not the unions that are mis-spending and mis-managing the little bit of funds that are left in Detroit.

Sorry, I don't mean to get on a soapbox here.

A police officer isn't qualified to install the computers into the scout car, I am assuming it was the IT department, however, I may be wrong. It could be the company who sold the City the computers had a contract to install them and the City has not fulfilled their part of the bargain, ie., paying the company. What I do know is that those cars sat in a parking lot for a long time, no computers installed. Charlie LeDuff comes along, gets wind of this, publicizes it, amazingly, the cars are out on the roads, minus the computers.
The administration within the Police Department and all of the CofD can't seem to figure up from down, right from left. Then, to go on a "retreat", [[and I don't care if that money was designated strictly for that purpose), is ludicrious.

Brand new cops, 33 graduated this past April and those from the class before, will be making poverty level money, and they are still willing to go out daily and put themselves at risk for the citizens of Detroit. It's obscene the way the City plays while police and fire pay, and many other individual employees within the workforce of the CofD are paying the price for a lavish lifestyle and continued legal support for the white collar thugs who have been caught and are still sitting on the edge of their chairs, waiting for the hammer to drop on them.

Again, sorry for the vent.

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Venting is good. But don't be unrealistic about what it takes to fix a highly dysfunctional system. And I agree with you on Unions. They are an important part of the mix. But just because there are those out there who hate unions -- doesn't mean that there aren't things about them that need fixing -- while still providing protection to workers. Unions are fine when they work for the common good. Not so good when they become private clubs of insiders who get inordinate benefit. We can all probably agree that there's room for improvement to the benefit of all.

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Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Venting is good. But don't be unrealistic about what it takes to fix a highly dysfunctional system. And I agree with you on Unions. They are an important part of the mix. But just because there are those out there who hate unions -- doesn't mean that there aren't things about them that need fixing -- while still providing protection to workers. Unions are fine when they work for the common good. Not so good when they become private clubs of insiders who get inordinate benefit. We can all probably agree that there's room for improvement to the benefit of all.

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Absolutely agree.

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Originally Posted by Ray1936

Those 40 yahoos would have done the C of D a lot better by just grabbing 20 marked police cars and gone on patrol for the three days.

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Instead of taking 20 cars, ride with a precinct unit and probably learn more about the problems the road officers face every day.

[[See how easy that is? Quote only the part you're replying to instead of the entire post.)

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Unless this was an MSP training session at one of their facilities, I don't see why this couldn't have been done at Belle Isle, Rouge Park, Palmer Park, etc., etc.

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Originally Posted by Meddle

Unless this was an MSP training session at one of their facilities, I don't see why this couldn't have been done at Belle Isle, Rouge Park, Palmer Park, etc., etc.

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According to their reply on Fox 2 the daily perdeium was paiid for by the state, and only available if at least 50 miles for Detroit. I am not defending them by no means as they probably still spent $100,00.00 of city money.

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Originally Posted by Wheels

According to their reply on Fox 2 the daily perdeium was paiid for by the state, and only available if at least 50 miles for Detroit. I am not defending them by no means as they probably still spent $100,00.00 of city money.

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Wheels --- I want them to spend $100,000 of my city money [[I do pay City taxes) if they are improving themselves.

I'm afraid I'm a broken record now -- but it is a very good practice to get away from your home base for management retreats. You can't really dedicate yourself to a project if you remain immersed in the city. The state provides the per diem because it realizes the value of retreats.

In many fields, you can argue that you don't need to get away -- but emergency responders need to NOT be local or their radios will go off and they will 'respond'.

Let these guys and gals invest in themselves. That's worth $100,000. If they come out of this retreat finding a way to eliminate two unnecessary positions, then they've paid back the $100,000 and they've saved the city $100,000 [[using $100,000 as a likely annual all-in cost for a police officers. Its probably low when you factor in everything including lawsuits.)

according to the video they needed to be 50 miles from home for the per diem to cover lodging to kick in. what about the cops living in livingston county? maybe they have to drive home!?! :rolleyes:

I don't see any reason why this could not be done more locally. Then again, I don't see why the Chamber holds its annual meeting in Mackinac Island either. Should not the chamber be supporting local businesses?

Incidentally when I go to statewide meetings I do not expect the boss to be picking up my freight for everything or every time. I participate in them to learn things not to play golf. I have paid for half of the Michigan Planner Meetings I have attended. Spent my own gas, hotels and food too.

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Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

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I don't see any reason why this could not be done more locally. Then again, I don't see why the Chamber holds its annual meeting in Mackinac Island either. Should not the chamber be supporting local businesses?
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Because when you travel, it broadens your horizons. You make a committment to the task. You 'step away' from the moment-to-moment distractions and duties.

I think much of Detroit's problem stems from not engaging with the broader world, but only seeing things from a Detroit perspective.

[[Am I alone in this? I'm really surprised that there's such outrage at DPD brass taking action to improve themselves.)

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Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Because when you travel, it broadens your horizons. You make a committment to the task. You 'step away' from the moment-to-moment distractions and duties.

I think much of Detroit's problem stems from not engaging with the broader world, but only seeing things from a Detroit perspective.

[[Am I alone in this? I'm really surprised that there's such outrage at DPD brass taking action to improve themselves.)

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Wesley, my outrage is the fact that this $100,000 could be spent in a better way towards improving the quality of things within the DPD. I understand that the funds are designated specifically for a "retreat", but right now, with talk of laying off, poor equipment, pay cuts and health care benefits being cut...how can these commanders justify leaving the city for a two day "retreat"?

If I were a $27,000/yr. new officer without proper equipment, I would have to wonder just how this "retreat" is going to improve things for me out on the streets. Half of these commanders are still using pencil and paper to do payroll, that's terrible. I have to wonder why this $100,000 has to be used at least 50 miles away from home.

Also, I wonder if these 40 people are all using their personal cars, police cars, are they going in a van, a bus, or what? Transportation alone for that many will cost a fortune.

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Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

[[Am I alone in this? I'm really surprised that there's such outrage at DPD brass taking action to improve themselves.)

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The most basic function of DPD is to prompty respond to police calls. They're currently unable to do this, so any time/money given to "professional development" is an outragous waste of resources, IMO.

Every participant could be responding to 911 calls instead of wining and dining in Lansing.

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Originally Posted by Bham1982

The most basic function of DPD is to prompty respond to police calls. They're currently unable to do this, so any time/money given to "professional development" is an outragous waste of resources, IMO.

Every participant could be responding to 911 calls instead of wining and dining in Lansing.

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Hey, thanks for the reactions.

But I still think sometimes you'd be better off finding the source of the leak in your boat, then just bailing out the water.

DPD has big leaks, and I doubt they'll be solved by hard work alone. I'd like some critical thinking too.

Again, thank you.

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Originally Posted by Buy American

Also, I wonder if these 40 people are all using their personal cars, police cars, are they going in a van, a bus, or what? Transportation alone for that many will cost a fortune.

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Buy American, do you have any direct experience in any management or strategy-level positions? I ask this because from the tone of your question, I infer skepticism and doubt that this time and money is a positive investment that will go toward the organizational ability to accomplish its mission.

I don't see this as a 5-day junket filled with margaritas and dancing girls. And, frankly, if it turns out that this is a 5-day junket with margaritas and dancing girls, then you [[and I) will have all the reason in the world to raise hell.

I don't doubt that your skepticism is without cause...the gross mismanagement in all Detroit departments is so atrocious that nothing surprises me anymore. But it's an irrational position to state that $100,000 would be better used to help the people at the bottom directly rather than on development and strategy work at the top.

It's not like these guys are going to Vegas for a week. Or even Mackinac. They're going to Lansing...hardly a vacation spot at all.

You have a valid question about how this $100,000 is going to help you on the streets. That is totally fair and it's a question you should ask. The people up top should be accountable for how that money was spent, what insights were gained, and what actions will be executed as a result.

Management needs to do a better job of understanding the view at the bottom. But the people at the bottom also need to better understand the view from the top. Things look simple from the bottom because you are only seeing it from the limited perspective of one point of view. From the top, you're dealing with political pressures from the feds, from the councilmen, from the press, from the unions, from the criminals, from the citizens, from the budget, etc. etc.,

There are no easy answers. And I'm not even saying that the people at the top are competent to do the job.

In my opinion, much of what Detroit is fighting at this point is structural. The problems -- with crime, budgets, politics -- that DPD are presented with are too large and overwhelming for them to deal with on their own.

We're seriously at the point where you're asking a 3rd grader to do PhD level work. And, sure, you can argue that the 3rd grader is incompetent for his level. Fine. I won't even argue with you there. But I'm saying that even in a best case scenario, DPD is too overwhelmed, too under-resourced, too structurally mired in contracts [[both private and union), and too underskilled to handle this problem.

What do we do from here? Expect little. Continue to demand improvement. Triage call volumes [[carjackings and burglaries should be prioritized over domestic disputes, for example). Swallow your pride and ask for outside help.

I hope that's the conclusion they come to after their time away.

Come on now - You can't expect the Command Staff to have sex with their subordinates in the same city where their spouses are. I tihnk that 50 miles away qualifies as "safe" sex..................

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Originally Posted by ct_alum

Come on now - You can't expect the Command Staff to have sex with their subordinates in the same city where their spouses are. I tihnk that 50 miles away qualifies as "safe" sex..................

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Detroit seems to have no problem subordinate sex within the City limits, based on mayoral behavior.